Train Bombing Anniversy

[gyuri_ft]

Short news - no accusation (we all know who did it, just not exactly clear why), just facts:

http://www.zeleznicesrbije.com/system/en/h...s_id/10722.html

More about it here:

http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/nato061300.htm

Collateral damage or not - but I expect, at least some officials of the U.S. embassy in Belgrade should come to the ceremony and at least say (this is not acknowleding any guilt, right?) somewaht like "we regret the loss of the life". A nice gesture would be an e-mail from admin to www.zeleznicesrbije.com saying somewhat like "Amtrak supporters regret the bombing of the train and hope it never happens again". I think it is proper because we know, what flag was on the tail of the fighter jet which fired the missiles.

Can you visit the site of bombing to at least pay respect? Not if you consult with "European Train Experts" of Raileurope.

Here is the map:

http://www.raileurope.com/us/common/rail_map/greece.htm

And as we see, according "European Train Experts" there is not even a railway between Nis and

Skopje :angry:

But looking at German train database, the train is still tunning, the same number 393:

BTW: last year we traveled by train from Thessaloniki to Belgrade via Skopje and Nis - it was smooth, there wasn't any chopter to lift the train in the air after Skopje - we arrived mysteriously Nis without leaving the ground.

So the railway is there with three international trains running daily. Maybe our Depatrment of State consulted with Raileurope rather then with their honor? :angry:

 

[Guest]

That apology will be in the mail as soon as Slobodan Milosevich likewise apologizes to the hundreds of thousands of innocent Croat, Albanian, and Muslim Serb citizens he slaughtered; oh, that's right, he died before he could be punished...

:angry:

 

[gyuri_ft]

That apology will be in the mail as soon as Slobodan Milosevich likewise apologizes to the hundreds of thousands of innocent Croat, Albanian, and Muslim Serb citizens he slaughtered; oh, that's right, he died before he could be punished...:angry:

1) many innocent citizens of Yugoslavia of Croatian, Albanian, Serbian ethnic backgrond died for absurd reasons and ethnic violence. Many were not even religious. For many today the absurdity of what happened is beyond understanding.

2) Miloshevich was not on the IC#393

(But indeed, at this moment he probably is in the meeting with his close friend Saddam in a warm and cozy place)

Since it was an IC/EC train, many passengers from Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Hungary were on the train. Most citizens of neighboring countries did not even realize the absurdity what was going on in the skies or somewhare else.

3) I was under impression, U.S. goverment does regret this bombing. I am saddened, you don't.

4) I am under impression, the results we see today are still somewhat... sub-optimal

(just if any question: I am not from Yugoslavia)

 

[AmtrakWPK]

The fact that a sadistic dictator may have been the "reason" for the attacks, or the fact that there may have been a nice ideal behind the military operations should not reduce, one iota, a feeling of appalling loss, and genuine sorrow, for every single innocent person killed or injured, whether at Va. Tech or a foreign train as gyuri_ft reported. Nobody's motives are relevant to the people who were killed or to their loved ones. You can make justifications all you want at a national level. It won't bring back one single innocent person killed, and those persons and their loved ones deserve respect and reverence, not a cavalier dismissal by reference to the dictator, who, apparently, was not responsible for those particular deaths, even if he was responsible for tens of thousands of others. Even military personnel who, based on incorrect orders derived from faulty intelligence, kill innocent noncombatants, feel great sorrow and regret from such things, and so should we.

 

[gyuri_ft]

I absolutely agree of course with AmtrakWPK. The reason of the posting was not just the original tragedy but the fact, our (and I am American citizen) embassy in Belgade missed an opportunity to pay respect and improve our image. What we see on the Serbian Railway web site is a report about a sad gathering with some flowers and few words of respect spoken at the place of the tragedy. There is not a single sign of fingerpointing towards U.S. or NATO. What I see, they even try to avoid such as much as possible.

I expected similar conduct from NATO and/or U.S. representatives/ambassadors/military attaché-s not just because what happened but at this point Serbia is expected to join NATO relatively soon. Some flowers and sending a military attaché to Nis is not a major expense for the U.S. embassy. I am affraid, it's not even lack of good will, simply ignorance. They most likely indeed forgot.

I suggest, maybe we do not forget and at least send a friendly message. AFAIK Serbian Railways as institution was never involved in Miloshevich' dealings, they suffered first from underinvestment during the Communist regime, than from bombings.

-------------------------

OK - correction - our of curiosity and maybe thinking I did shoot first, than aimed I went to the homepage of U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, http://belgrade.usembassy.gov Wish, I would not. :angry:

There is this "masterpeice" of work http://www.state.gov/p/us/rm/2007/83120.htm and one has to be very naive not to see what kind of bovine dropping it is. Just looking at that document sure, there are quite a few "gems" of ignorance and self-justification. At best, this looks like an elephant in china shop.

I actually just sent an e-mail to U.S. diplomatic mission in Belgrade with the question, why nobody did attend the service. As we see, passengers of passing Belgrade-Thessalonki train had extra flowers. So I asked, if there is simply money-saving measures involved, who is the person at diplomatic mission we can donate a free Belgrade-Thessaloniki r/t ticket next year. Just curious...

Of course we can look quickly at the map and see, where the tragedy happend.

This is perhaps the best link to see the railway map of Serbia:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.ph...-montenegro.gif

The tragedy happend at Leskovac: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leskovac which was known as "Little Manchester". It was (see the map) on the blue electrified line, south of Doljevac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doljevac

If we look again, it is of question, the line south of Doljevac has any military importance transfering troops. The only way to transfer troops to Kosovo is on the green Doljevac-Kursumlija line or via Kraljevo-Rudnica.

A very detailed, technically competent and sober analyse of the tragedy can be found here:

(the number of victims is indeed over 50). But what appears to be pretty bad, it looks like the train was deliberatly targeted.

http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index.../lan/lan10.incl

I was not really confronted with this until today; but what I see now it does look more and more nasty. Sorry. And afterwards if we read the report I mentioned above

http://www.state.gov/p/us/rm/2007/83120.htm

it looks even more cynic.

 

[gyuri_ft]

I actually just sent an e-mail to U.S. diplomatic mission in Belgrade with the question, why nobody did attend the service. As we see, passengers of passing Belgrade-Thessalonki train had extra flowers. So I asked, if there is simply money-saving measures involved, who is the person at diplomatic mission we can donate a free Belgrade-Thessaloniki r/t ticket next year. Just curious...

No words yet from U.S. diplomatic mission in Belgrade. Once I receive, I will post it here.

 

[George Harris]

I actually just sent an e-mail to U.S. diplomatic mission in Belgrade with the question, why nobody did attend the service. As we see, passengers of passing Belgrade-Thessalonki train had extra flowers. So I asked, if there is simply money-saving measures involved, who is the person at diplomatic mission we can donate a free Belgrade-Thessaloniki r/t ticket next year. Just curious...

No words yet from U.S. diplomatic mission in Belgrade. Once I receive, I will post it here.

I will pass on commenting on the original event that led to this thread.

However, as an American that has worked outside the country for several years, I will say that the usual performance of the various agencies of the US State Department is to create animosity and build enemies where their weren't any before. If we wonder why the US don't have much in the way of foreign tourists, go with someone that is a foreign national friend of yours when they try to get a visa. You will spend the rest of the day apologising for the ignorance, arrogance, and general STUPIDITY of the way the various embassies and consulates handle it. Oh yeah, the cost is US$100, whether they give you the visa or not, and if you reapply with better information you get to pay that all over again. If you don't have US currency they will be happy to take local currency but at a really bad conversion rate.

As long as we have a State Department, we will make enemies.

George

 

[gyuri_ft]

However, as an American that has worked outside the country for several years, I will say that the usual performance of the various agencies of the US State Department is to create animosity and build enemies where their weren't any before.

In my previous life I lived in a place strongly behind the Iron Curtain. The only country we were more-less allowed to travel (more-less) unrestricted outside of the Iron Curtain was Yugoslavia. Man, it was WEST. They had more cars than us. There was banana awailable year round. They had magazines on the street for sale with young people without clothing. The citizens of our country bought banana and Adidas sirts and magazines with girls and smuggled them. That place was called "Socialist" but it was very unlike stone-age Communism we had to face and not just from the point of view of primitive banana-sexy magazine-adaidas consumerism! Much more seriously - they had human rights to a degree unknown to us, they had diplomatic relationship with Israel and so on. It was screwed to a degree every time I am there I am so sad. Every socialist country had to go through a "major maffiosi villain head of state" phase - but NATO literally bombed them back to the stone age. It was no more America-friendly nation in the entire Central/East Europe.

Try to speak with the locals now. So sad.

If we wonder why the US don't have much in the way of foreign tourists, go with someone that is a foreign national friend of yours when they try to get a visa.

Oh, yes, it sounds so familiar. I am U.S. citizen and I had to take care about my parents visitor's visa.

You will spend the rest of the day apologising for the ignorance, arrogance, and general STUPIDITY of the way the various embassies and consulates handle it. Oh yeah, the cost is US$100, whether they give you the visa or not, and if you reapply with better information you get to pay that all over again. If you don't have US currency they will be happy to take local currency but at a really bad conversion rate.

And if you are poor and do not have Internet than you have to call a local maffiosi who is relative to some SOB at the consulate - they charge you arm and leg for the call (horribly high toll call!!), put you on the wait and don't tell this is a VERY expensive call - you realize it if you get the phone bill. This is all just to "help" you to make an appointment and you CANNOT avoid this "service" unless you prove, you are retired and don't have money. But if you don't have money, you won't get visa, unless you have a close realtive in the U.S. who happen to be American citizen.

These useless people suck our taxes like moscitoes suck blood.

As long as we have a State Department, we will make enemies. George

Oh, well, very sad. But back to the train - I was already here in the U.S. as it happened. But I did not realize to what extent it was so bad and that how many people died and WHO died until a few days ago. It was a shocker for me. And than I read the study of the German expert presented to the Hague Court. They dismissed the case because:

"Although Mr Wenz is of the view that the WSO intentionally targeted the train, the committee's review of the frames used in the report indicates another interpretation is equally available."

It was not even investigated, just dismissed. This way for me now the entire Hague Court lost their credibility because who deliberately kills civilians is a war criminal no matter how many and on which side. As someone said, there is no god terrorist or bad terrorist, just terorrorist and the only good terrorist is the one behind the bars for good (we are strongly agianst more extensive ways of punishment).

 

[George Harris]

On the other hand, the strong anti US bias that appears to exist in much of western Europe suggests to me that if the Hague outright dismissed it, there was not one iota of credible evidence to even suggest that it was a deliberate act.

 

[gyuri_ft]

On the other hand, the strong anti US bias that appears to exist in much of western Europe suggests to me that if the Hague outright dismissed it, there was not one iota of credible evidence to even suggest that it was a deliberate act.

The influence due physical location does not mean extremely much. U.N. headquarter is in NYC but we cannot say about U.N. as whole, it reflects the mood and bias of New York streets. Also Hague is in NL which is much less anti-US than, say, Greece.

If you read the arguments what looks for me, Hague did reject to merely investigate based that "there could be an other explanation". If there could not be an other explanation, than nothing is to investigate. U.S. military actually even acknowledged that the video footage they presented was significantly sped up due a technical glitch. So it remains still highly controversal and asks for investigation.