Train 8

[RRUserious]

Just looking at some ontime percentages. I really had a jaw drop when I looked at what Amtrak has posted for Train 8 in May. It says 9.7 percent ontime. For all intents and purposes that is tantamount to never being on schedule. It reminds me of other transportation I use that never gets there, that I know won't. Yet, nobody changes the schedule to something meaningful. Can't the managers SEE this train can't perform as they have suggested it should? Why not give it times it can make at least half the time? Even the percent for the last 12 months (including the lightest seasons) is only 47 percent. To me, this makes their printed schedule meaningless. Really the schedule is "when we pull into the station, and that's different every day". I think when the numbers go that low, they really need more numbers such as mean and range of late times into destinations for making connections. In other words, if they must connect to other trains in Chicago, how much of the time are they there to make the connection? Passengers need to know that before purchasing a ticket. We always look at plane connections in the light of whether the layover is adequate to go through whatever processing a given airport requires.

Absent this sort of disclosure, how is one to plan? I was thnking today what I'd suggest Amtrak do to improve its service. A big part of it is "assume the worst and plan". They could HOPE an Empire Builder train that is late will still reach Chicago in time to make the departures of connecting trains. But it is unprofessional to say "let's hope" Someone responsible needs to speak up and say "but suppose they don't, what is our policy?" And then based on that they need to start asking themselves "what are the numbers of people we have to provide a backup plan, what number of staff have to be THERE to insure the company handles paperwork to speed those customers onto their next step?" I remember in my IT years, when something went badly wrong, we didn't just stand and wait for a vendor to fix the problem, we knew we were missing schedule milestones, we could identify what they are, we could predict which business lines needed to know so that they were ready to answer customer questions, etc. It was a drill. We were failing our normal service, so all we could do is show we had handled what was totally in our control.

./

 

[EB_OBS]

END-POINT ON-TIME PERFORMANCE REPORT

MAY 2012

Service, May 2012, May 2011, Change

Empire Builder, 70.2%, 33.9%, +36.3%

ALL STATIONS ON-TIME PERFORMANCE REPORT

MAY 2012

Service, May 2012, May 2011, Change

Empire Builder, 48.9%, 28.9%, +20.0%

These are the numbers I seen in the report I read. If you are looking at the OTP of one individual mid-way station, remember, there's padding built into the schedule all along the route. It's entirely possible for the train to never be on-time at a particular station and yet still depart, possibly the very next station, on-time consistently and arrive at it's end-point on-time.

 

[NW cannonball]

Naah - the problem is that the eastbound EB #8 has been 3-8 hours late recently. Being late by the definition of 30 minutes of the 40 hour run SEA-CHI is not a problem.

The problem is that eastbound connections in Chicago are totally broken. So the way I read it the sorry 9.7% on time at CHI is not much problem in itself -- IF the eastbound connections work -- which they don't the last few weeks.

Presumably Amtrak has a contract with BNSF with penalty clauses. Amtrak won't change the schedule because they have a contract with BNSF.

BNSF only a year or to ago was one of the more reliable freight railroads with an Amtrak contract. The UP was famously anti-Amtrak. Now, with the Williston oil -- I see a few unit trains of crude eastbound here in MSP every day.

Anyhow complain to Warren Buffet, and Amtrak if you wish, and to your Congress-crittur.

Last November did see some pipeline work around Williston - maybe some of the crude trains will not be needed in a year or two.

BUT - right now it seems that BNSF is breaching its Amtrak contract because there's a lot more money to be made hauling Williston crude.

Correct me if I'm mistaken on this.

END-POINT ON-TIME PERFORMANCE REPORT

MAY 2012

Service, May 2012, May 2011, Change

Empire Builder, 70.2%, 33.9%, +36.3%

ALL STATIONS ON-TIME PERFORMANCE REPORT

MAY 2012

Service, May 2012, May 2011, Change

Empire Builder, 48.9%, 28.9%, +20.0%

These are the numbers I seen in the report I read. If you are looking at the OTP of one individual mid-way station, remember, there's padding built into the schedule all along the route. It's entirely possible for the train to never be on-time at a particular station and yet still depart, possibly the very next station, on-time consistently and arrive at it's end-point on-time.

 

[RRUserious]

I'm just regretting that I missed all the discussion on this prior to making my travel plans. It all sounds so interesting, but I'm not sure I would have ever booked the route I did if I knew Empire Builder was such a mess. I took Empire Builder round trip just last October and nothing happened on that trip that prepared me for what I just experienced. Going WEST, I arrived 45 minutes early at my destination. And coming east, I don't think the arrival diverged this much from what the schedule said. So it seems like a completely different line since then. One huge difference is that I never had to connect to a train that could pull out and leave a large number of passengers behind. I should also add that this experience is not matched by anything in my bus and plane experience. I'm sure other passengers have missed a plane or bus connection, but I haven't. I don't know all the parties who could be blamed for this, but railway travel's reputation isn't glowing at the moment.

 

[AlanB]

RR,

Management is well aware of the delays. They get a report every day.

As for changing the schedule, it doesn't help. I'm currently on the Adirondack so I'm winging some of this from memory. I think it was back in 2001 that the Sunset Limited was having severe lateness problems. So Amtrak sat down with UP & CSX to work out a new schedule to better reflect reality. The result was that they added 12-1/2 hours to the schedule; 8 for the UP side IIRC.

The result? The train still ran late. UP simply used up all that extra time and continued to delay the train. Twelve and a half extra hours and the train ran 1 day late multiple times.

These schedules do work if the host isn't having problems and doesn't play games. In most cases today's schedules are longer than the historical trains. It all comes down to Amtrak being able to force the host RR's to honor the contract that requires that Amtrak gets priority. Up until recently it was very hard for Amtrak to do anything. However recent changes have finally allowed Amtrak to start doing more to force the host RR's to do the right thing. Amtrak just recently went after CP IIRC. But BNSF has for years been friendly towards Amtrak, so I suspect that Amtrak is less likely to go after them at least initially.

 

[NW cannonball]

Last November I took the Builder to Everett and back - there was an emergency braking stop out in Montana somewhere, an engine problem somewhere else, and on the way back we did slow time because of high winds on the Montana plains, maybe an hour late -- made up the time - no real problem.

The recent performance of #8 eastbound is worse than most of us old rail riders can remember -- it is really really bad. It's a surprise to most of us old riders - it stinks.

I wasn't kidding about complaining to Warren Buffet and BNSF and Amtrak or Congress -- the last couple months #8 has been really really bad, not an hour late bad -- an hour late you can make your connection. 6 or 8 or 4 hours late -- really bad.

OK there was a derailment last week, but that's no excuse for the ongoing total failure of #8 to get to Chicago in time to connect.

Naah, you couldn't have anticipated this total ( redacted cuss words ) situation. Most of us old hands who use the EB can't figure it either.

I just called Amtrak, and the agent said -- well yeah figure an overnight in Chicago -- maybe later the situation will work itself out - but for now -- figure an overnight in Chicago at Amtrak's expense.

Sheesh.

 

[NW cannonball]

Last November I took the Builder to Everett and back - there was an emergency braking stop out in Montana somewhere, an engine problem somewhere else, and on the way back we did slow time because of high winds on the Montana plains, maybe an hour late -- made up the time - no real problem.

The recent performance of #8 eastbound is worse than most of us old rail riders can remember -- it is really really bad. It's a surprise to most of us old riders - it stinks.

I wasn't kidding about complaining to Warren Buffet and BNSF and Amtrak or Congress -- the last couple months #8 has been really really bad, not an hour late bad -- an hour late you can make your connection. 6 or 8 or 4 hours late -- really bad.

OK there was a derailment last week, but that's no excuse for the ongoing total failure of #8 to get to Chicago in time to connect.

Naah, you couldn't have anticipated this total ( redacted cuss words ) situation. Most of us old hands who use the EB can't figure it either.

I just called Amtrak, and the agent said -- well yeah figure an overnight in Chicago -- maybe later the situation will work itself out - but for now -- figure an overnight in Chicago at Amtrak's expense.

Sheesh.

So - today #8 is only 1:28 late on the River between MSP and Lacrosse. I still will consider the Amtrak agent right who just an hour ago said -- plan on an overnight in CHI.

 

[PRR 60]

RR,

Management is well aware of the delays. They get a report every day.

As for changing the schedule, it doesn't help. I'm currently on the Adirondack so I'm winging some of this from memory. I think it was back in 2001 that the Sunset Limited was having severe lateness problems. So Amtrak sat down with UP & CSX to work out a new schedule to better reflect reality. The result was that they added 12-1/2 hours to the schedule; 8 for the UP side IIRC.

The result? The train still ran late. UP simply used up all that extra time and continued to delay the train. Twelve and a half extra hours and the train ran 1 day late multiple times.

These schedules do work if the host isn't having problems and doesn't play games. In most cases today's schedules are longer than the historical trains. It all comes down to Amtrak being able to force the host RR's to honor the contract that requires that Amtrak gets priority. Up until recently it was very hard for Amtrak to do anything. However recent changes have finally allowed Amtrak to start doing more to force the host RR's to do the right thing. Amtrak just recently went after CP IIRC. But BNSF has for years been friendly towards Amtrak, so I suspect that Amtrak is less likely to go after them at least initially.

CN, not CP.

 

[jis]

I'm currently on the Adirondack so I'm winging some of this from memory.

Making sure that the tracks to Albany are good for the OTOL Fest already? :lol:

 

[RRUserious]

Wow, and I thought MY trip was bad! On Wednesday, June 27, Train 8 rolled in 8 hours and 8 minutes late at 12:03am. Yet another group of victims. One can only hope that the Amtrak people, with fresh memories of June 18, didn't do as badly for this group. I was flipping backwards through the dates. Not a single date where Train 8 made Chicago on time. ZERO percent ontime. The "good news" is some passengers made connections. Wonder what combination of predictable factors caused all those trips to be late.

 

[Guest]

With the current timekeeping of train 8 into Chicago I would not recommend this train to most people. First time train riders dealing with these types of delays may have a bad experience. I've always felt it's not so bad once you're on the train but it stinks waiting at a station for waiting hours for a late train. I hate to see what continued delays could do to ridership.

 

[Ryan]

Just looking at some ontime percentages. I really had a jaw drop when I looked at what Amtrak has posted for Train 8 in May. It says 9.7 percent ontime.

END-POINT ON-TIME PERFORMANCE REPORT

MAY 2012

Service, May 2012, May 2011, Change

Empire Builder, 70.2%, 33.9%, +36.3%

ALL STATIONS ON-TIME PERFORMANCE REPORT

MAY 2012

Service, May 2012, May 2011, Change

Empire Builder, 48.9%, 28.9%, +20.0%

These are the numbers I seen in the report I read. If you are looking at the OTP of one individual mid-way station, remember, there's padding built into the schedule all along the route. It's entirely possible for the train to never be on-time at a particular station and yet still depart, possibly the very next station, on-time consistently and arrive at it's end-point on-time.

RRUserious, are you ever going to get around to backing up your 9% claim, or are you just hoping that we all forget it.

Your judgements are all completely worthless when you don't base them on accurate facts.

 

[musikdude]

If you have sleeper accomodations and train 8 is so late that you miss connecting to capitol limited, what happens exactly?

I understand that you would overnight at Amtrak's expense in Chicago but what if the next days's Cap doesn't have any sleeper available (not to mention screwing up the connection from D.C. to Florida as well).

Would you be forced into Coach?? If you paid for trip with points, do you get a partial points refund??

Can you refuse to go on the next available train if they can't give you a sleeping accom??

 

[Ryan]

Yes, you'll go coach.

Yes, you'll get a refund.

I doubt you'd have any luck refusing to go any further and having Amtrak take care of you any further.

 

[musikdude]

Yes, you'll go coach.

Yes, you'll get a refund.

I doubt you'd have any luck refusing to go any further and having Amtrak take care of you any further.

what happens if they next day's cap limited has no sleeper OR no coach seats?? do they bump someone from coach to make room for you or

would they keep you in Chicago for more than 1 night until space opened up on the Cap(perhaps 2 days later)??

 

[RRUserious]

Not sure if this link will work, but it shows 9.7 percent for May 2012. You could have looked it up YOURSELF if you weren't so busy playing games.

Train 8 May 2012

So there ya go, Ryan. Don't apologize for being so rude. It suits you.

 

[Ryan]

what happens if they next day's cap limited has no sleeper OR no coach seats?? do they bump someone from coach to make room for you or

would they keep you in Chicago for more than 1 night until space opened up on the Cap(perhaps 2 days later)??

Depends on there you are going - they may also be able to put you on the Card or LSL if that would work. If not, they won't bump someone, so I guess you would keep waiting.

Not sure if this link will work, but it shows 9.7 percent for May 2012. You could have looked it up YOURSELF if you weren't so busy playing games.

Yes, that works. Wonder why it's different than EB_OBS's numbers.

I tried to look it up, the May report isn't posted. You may have also read that I didn't have power or a reliable Internet connection for 45 hours this weekend. Sorry that asking for a source was so difficult, especially sicnr some of the numbers you've been using in this little extended hissy fit you are throwing weren't exactly accurate, and an actual Amtrak manager published numbers that looked quite difference.

 

[TrainLoverJoy]

I'm just regretting that I missed all the discussion on this prior to making my travel plans. It all sounds so interesting, but I'm not sure I would have ever booked the route I did if I knew Empire Builder was such a mess. I took Empire Builder round trip just last October and nothing happened on that trip that prepared me for what I just experienced. Going WEST, I arrived 45 minutes early at my destination. And coming east, I don't think the arrival diverged this much from what the schedule said. So it seems like a completely different line since then. One huge difference is that I never had to connect to a train that could pull out and leave a large number of passengers behind. I should also add that this experience is not matched by anything in my bus and plane experience. I'm sure other passengers have missed a plane or bus connection, but I haven't. I don't know all the parties who could be blamed for this, but railway travel's reputation isn't glowing at the moment.

I have a round trip planned on the Builder at the end of the month. Have just about made up my mind to go in September instead. It will be less crowded, PLUS maybe this late trouble will have subsided a little by then. My connecting train Wolverine is scheduled to leave 2 1/2 hours after EB's scheduled arrival time.....and I'm almost certain to miss it, at this point.

 

[AlanB]

Not sure if this link will work, but it shows 9.7 percent for May 2012. You could have looked it up YOURSELF if you weren't so busy playing games.

Yes, that works. Wonder why it's different than EB_OBS's numbers.

I tried to look it up, the May report isn't posted. You may have also read that I didn't have power or a reliable Internet connection for 45 hours this weekend. Sorry that asking for a source was so difficult, especially sicnr some of the numbers you've been using in this little extended hissy fit you are throwing weren't exactly accurate, and an actual Amtrak manager published numbers that looked quite difference.

Ryan,

The difference is that RR linked to Amtrak's report specifically for train #8, which is doing more poorly than train #7.

EB_OBS provided the combined data for trains #7 & #8.

 

[Ryan]

Thanks, Alan. I never would have guessed that the EB would have 90% OTP one direction and 10% in the other direction.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Just looking at some ontime percentages. I really had a jaw drop when I looked at what Amtrak has posted for Train 8 in May. It says 9.7 percent ontime. For all intents and purposes that is tantamount to never being on schedule. It reminds me of other transportation I use that never gets there, that I know won't. Yet, nobody changes the schedule to something meaningful. Can't the managers SEE this train can't perform as they have suggested it should? Why not give it times it can make at least half the time? Even the percent for the last 12 months (including the lightest seasons) is only 47 percent. To me, this makes their printed schedule meaningless. Really the schedule is "when we pull into the station, and that's different every day". I think when the numbers go that low, they really need more numbers such as mean and range of late times into destinations for making connections. In other words, if they must connect to other trains in Chicago, how much of the time are they there to make the connection? Passengers need to know that before purchasing a ticket. We always look at plane connections in the light of whether the layover is adequate to go through whatever processing a given airport requires.

Absent this sort of disclosure, how is one to plan? I was thnking today what I'd suggest Amtrak do to improve its service. A big part of it is "assume the worst and plan". They could HOPE an Empire Builder train that is late will still reach Chicago in time to make the departures of connecting trains. But it is unprofessional to say "let's hope" Someone responsible needs to speak up and say "but suppose they don't, what is our policy?" And then based on that they need to start asking themselves "what are the numbers of people we have to provide a backup plan, what number of staff have to be THERE to insure the company handles paperwork to speed those customers onto their next step?" I remember in my IT years, when something went badly wrong, we didn't just stand and wait for a vendor to fix the problem, we knew we were missing schedule milestones, we could identify what they are, we could predict which business lines needed to know so that they were ready to answer customer questions, etc. It was a drill. We were failing our normal service, so all we could do is show we had handled what was totally in our control.

./

So it what one thread a day blasting Amtrak, Sir we get it. Please try to move on. Posting another thread about your experience with Empire Builder ever day, is not show off you good nature, happy go-lucky side. If you even have one.

 

[Mackensen]

Thanks, Alan. I never would have guessed that the EB would have 90% OTP one direction and 10% in the other direction.

It makes sense to me--the worst trouble spot for the Builder is in central North Dakota. It's easy to have a crew expire out there and Amtrak doesn't have many opportunities for an eastbound train to make up time.

RRUserious, I can appreciate you had a bad experience and for whatever reason took it personally. But the Builder's 90% OTP westbound and 10% OTP eastbound for May should tell you that you're dealing with an extraordinary situation, and it seems mistaken to me to make any kind of sweeping judgement based on that. The weather in North Dakota has been unusually severe for the past couple years, and as BNSF owns the track Amtrak is almost powerless to mitigate that. I don't know how many threads we're had on this board over the last couple years about the extraordinary problems facing the Builder, and I'm sorry that you never saw any of them. It's also fair to say that Amtrak's uneven customer service, particularly in Chicago, isn't well-equipped for extraordinary situations. That's not really news either.

 

[montana mike]

I see Train #7 (the west bound EB) is now about 5 hours late for it's Seattle arrival today. Anyone know what happened? It was almost right on time until somewhere in Washington state then the delays piled up.

:-(

 

[EB_OBS]

I see Train #7 (the west bound EB) is now about 5 hours late for it's Seattle arrival today. Anyone know what happened? It was almost right on time until somewhere in Washington state then the delays piled up.

:-(

Trespasser fatality and a re-crew at Leavenworth as a result.

 

[EB_OBS]

Thanks, Alan. I never would have guessed that the EB would have 90% OTP one direction and 10% in the other direction.

Yeah I was trying to find that one out for myself. I suspected as much but I couldn't find any report that broke it down #7 & #8. I could only find reports with the combined performance numbers.

Thanks for the link RRUserious. I'll have to save that.