Tipping Protocol

[jis]

The point though is that at the end of the day each individual will follow whatever they believe the norm is, or should be. It is quite evident that a single norm across the board does not exist. For example, Manny should absolutely do whatever he believes is proper, but should not expect everyone else to believe the same thing to be proper unless he wants to set himself up for frustration or disappointment.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If I don't take this approach, then next time I am in an elevator, instead of letting the women exit first, I will have to evaluate how rushed they appear to be compared to me, how young or old, how their day seems to be going, whether they were pleasant or not on the ride up (or down), and so forth. Further, other males on the elevator may disagree with my analysis and try and block me when I try to exit before the women. Without clear but unwritten rules, which we all know, chaos ensues. Social norms are an unwritten contract and bind us.

This is a great analogy.

In my view it's a confusing analogy that comes with a surprisingly exaggerated warning. Amtrak staff deserve the same common courtesy as anyone else and I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. The insinuation that common courtesy requires money to change hands is both erroneous and absurd. Manny's depiction of a demure woman getting stuck behind a confused man is both silly and outdated. No woman I know would simply stand and wait for a perpetually befuddled man to resolve a self imposed mental paradox. Nor would they take umbrage if such a man simply got out of the way without making a scene out of it. Rather than devolving into chaos at the thought of having been wronged over something insignificant they would simply pass by and go about their business like any other functioning adult.

 

[SarahZ]

I was referring to the bolded, not the rest of it. That's why I bolded it.

 

[Radvlad]

Do we tip flight attendants for bringing us our meals or our snacks? No we don't. This is why I'm confused about tipping the Amtrak dining staff. Especially since they are paid well. Don't get me wrong, if I come across servers that are happy, upbeat, and make the dining experience pleasant, I will tip to show my appreciation. But if I come across rude, surely employees like many on here have described, I'm not tipping a penny.

 

[FormerOBS]

You may not believe in tipping the dining car employees, but Amtrak thinks you do believe in it, and Amtrak tells the IRS how much they think you tipped, whether you did or not. It's not my place to tell you what you ought to do, but IRS wants their money and they will get it from the employee.

The hours on duty are a bit deceptive, and it's hard to come up with a brief explanation that covers all eventualities because different trains follow different schedules. While the employees may not work 100% of the time, their shifts are split so that there are few long periods of inactivity. At night, it is rare for a dining car employee (or a SCA) to get 8 hours' continuous rest. OBS employees are paid only for hours actually worked. For those times you see them off duty between shifts, they are not being paid, even though their time is not truly their own because they are not home with loved ones. There is no paid "held away" time for hours not actually worked.

Overtime is paid on a monthly basis. I don't know the specific requirements now in force. If you work less than a certain number of hours, you will not get any overtime, even if you were on a train that was ungodly late some time during that month. If you missed a trip due to illness, vacation, or other reasons, this reduces monthly hours so that hours worked on a late train during that month are paid at straight time.

Tom

 

[jis]

I was referring to the bolded, not the rest of it. That's why I bolded it.

Actually, even the bolded portion is somewhat silly. If there are five men by the door and four women in the back, why it makes any sense to figure out the necessary contortions to allow the women to exit first instead of just naturally exiting in the most convenient order completely beats me.

Such decisions should be guided by practicality and what the situation presents rather than by dogma.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I was referring to the bolded, not the rest of it. That's why I bolded it.

Actually, even the bolded portion is somewhat silly. If there are five men by the door and four women in the back, why does it make any sense to figure out the necessary contortions to allow the women to exit first instead of just naturally exiting in the most convenient order completely beats me.

Such decisions should be guided by practicality and what the situation presents rather than by dogma.

I agree. I appreciate "ladies first" but don't expect it, especially like in your scenario.

 

[Manny T]

Some follow up points:

1. No analogy is perfect. Analogies are illustrative only.

2. Answering the question "Chicken or fish" and being handed a tray on an airplane (no tip) is not the same as sitting down in an Amtrak dining car and being served drinks and a 2-3 course meal (tip).

3. The likelihood of tipping in the US is directly proportional to the extent of service received: meal at a sit down restaurant (very likely) vs. pick up at a fast food counter (unlikely). Amtrak dining car most resembles former.

4. Academic papers show tipping in restaurants improves service for all customers. How? It is the direct substitute for management supervision of service. How's that? In a restaurant setting, service is difficult for management to observe in real time--each service transaction is unique, occurs once, is seen by the customer, and management is almost never present [at the table] to observe and monitor. Hence, customers are in the best position to monitor AND REWARD good service, "punish" bad service. Can we rely on Amtrak management to supervise dining car service? Passengers tipping plays a role. Net net result is probably to improve service marginally.

 

[SarahZ]

I don't *expect* to be let off the elevator first. That's ridiculous.

I was simply trying to pay Manny a compliment.

 

[tonys96]

I tip on Amtrak exactly the same as I do in other circumstances. If the service was excellent and courteous, I tip more than the 20%. If not, I tip whatever my heart tells me to tip.

On Amtrak, if I get that "eyeroll" when asking for that second Diet Pepsi....the tip drops considerably. :unsure:

 

[Cina]

Part of the problem I have (since I'm mildly neurotic when it comes to how other people see me), is an Amtrak waiter going to feel slighted or see me as a jerkface if I don't tip? Or are they going to think, "Oh, I make way more than a normal waiter, so it's NBD." If I leave with a smile and a thank-you only to a good wait staff, but don't leave a tip, am I sending an unintended message? This is why I tip. I worry about being seen as discourteous if I don't, regardless of how much the staff makes.

 

[FormerOBS]

I always tried to avoid judging the people I served. If they tipped, I was always grateful. If they didn't, I was pretty sure it was either because they didn't have the money to spare, or did not know that tipping is traditional, or I had disappointed them. Assuming I had time for reflection on it, I would try to remember whether I had done anything wrong. If so, I resolved to do better next time, and to make it up to them at the next meal if possible. If not, I just moved on. Dwelling on stuff like that is counterproductive. It can skew your viewpoint. It can turn your thoughts negative, and it does absolutely no good in the long run.

Tom

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You may not believe in tipping the dining car employees, but Amtrak thinks you do believe in it, and Amtrak tells the IRS how much they think you tipped, whether you did or not.

That's a lousy situation but it seems to me that a far more rational approach would be to implement a living wage and do away with the expectation of tipping. Other industrialized countries have done it so why not us?

1. No analogy is perfect. Analogies are illustrative only.

2. Answering the question "Chicken or fish" and being handed a tray on an airplane (no tip) is not the same as sitting down in an Amtrak dining car and being served drinks and a 2-3 course meal (tip).

3. The likelihood of tipping in the US is directly proportional to the extent of service received: meal at a sit down restaurant (very likely) vs. pick up at a fast food counter (unlikely). Amtrak dining car most resembles former.

4. Academic papers show tipping in restaurants improves service for all customers. How? It is the direct substitute for management supervision of service. How's that? In a restaurant setting, service is difficult for management to observe in real time--each service transaction is unique, occurs once, is seen by the customer, and management is almost never present [at the table] to observe and monitor. Hence, customers are in the best position to monitor AND REWARD good service, "punish" bad service. Can we rely on Amtrak management to supervise dining car service? Passengers tipping plays a role. Net net result is probably to improve service marginally.

I live in Texas. Some facets of old fashioned chivalry are still alive and well here. Like many social interactions it comes both with positive aspects (compassion, humility) and negative connotations (pride, superiority). At this point the concept of opening doors and/or stepping aside for women is so ingrained that I'd have to actively concentrate to avoid doing it automatically. What has never occurred to me is that someone could use this simple social courtesy to beat other people over the head about their lack of a perfect tipping record. Especially since we're talking about an extremely limited situation where the usual tipping goals (livable wage, improved service) either do not apply or are far less relevant. I'm still going to tip in all the usual places because 99% of the time tipping is still relevant. It's only those occasions when I'm on an Amtrak train that tipping no longer makes any sense to me.

Part of the problem I have (since I'm mildly neurotic when it comes to how other people see me), is an Amtrak waiter going to feel slighted or see me as a jerkface if I don't tip? Or are they going to think, "Oh, I make way more than a normal waiter, so it's NBD." If I leave with a smile and a thank-you only to a good wait staff, but don't leave a tip, am I sending an unintended message? This is why I tip. I worry about being seen as discourteous if I don't, regardless of how much the staff makes.

This post was amazingly prescient considering where the other tipping thread went.

 

[Manny T]

Sorry my use of an analogy didn't work for you DA. Point is, all the work on the subject regards tipping in the USA as a matter of etiquette, or to use your term, simple social courtesy. That some social courtesies should be ingrained in your behavior (opening doors etc.) and others optional or no longer relevant (tipping in the dining car) shows the contradiction involved in your position.

And I wonder why the goal of improved service is no longer relevant in your opinion. Can it be a coincidence that (a) people complain about service in the dining cars and (b) a segment of diners think tipping for service there is optional? Imo it's much more likely that there is a connection between these factors.