I feel compelled to begin by saying that I do not advocate in any way discontinuing the Empire Builder (what an encouraging note to start this off on...), but as a "premium" train it seems to have become the lousiest choice Amtrak could make. I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't make sense for Amtrak to shift the upscale service to either the SWC or the CZ...particularly as the CZ has more major intermediate markets (Omaha, Denver, SLC) while the SWC has a much larger endpoint market (Los Angeles) and downgrade the EB back to being "just another" LD train. The CZ seems far' less prone to these cluster-you-know-whats, and I've never heard of a major, continuing issue on the SWC.
Throwing in the Towel on the EB
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Personally I think the SWC is a great train/route, except for the fact that #4 always seems to be up to a half hour late between LAX and FLG...
Strangely last time I took the SWC out of FLG, when I boarded there was maybe 20 people in my car, and I had my own row of seats from FLG all the way until KCY the next day.
Strangely last time I took the SWC out of FLG, when I boarded there was maybe 20 people in my car, and I had my own row of seats from FLG all the way until KCY the next day.
G
Guest
Guest
The EB is powered by politics, so there is little reason to expect that Amtrak will cancel or downgrade service on a permanent basis.
Until the last year or 2 though, hasn't the Empire Builder been one of the better, more reliable Western LD trains? I don't have statistics in front of me right now, but from memory it seems that typically the EB & SWC were the generally reliable Western LDs and the CZ & TE/SL were the less reliable trains. I realize that the CZ & TE/SL have gotten considerably better in recent years, but I do wonder if those improvements will be sustained as the economy recovers and freight traffic increases. I suppose though if no "solution" is likely for the EB's woes (a big IF that I don't necessarly believe at this point), then a CZ that maintains reasonable on-time performance would be a good candidate for "premiere" LD train service.
Rail Freak
Engineer
I really don't blame Amtrak for Mother Nature's Furry!!!! The EB Empire Builder saved my butt when my flight was cancelled from PDX - TPA.!!!! 
Well, the SL has been a write-off since day 1 with all of the trouble SP gave Amtrak (enough that they ended up in court) and the fact that it hasn't been daily in nearly 45 years. The SWC has always been a solid route...but I was unaware of the CZ's status one way or another. I know that it at least matches the EB on scenery in Colorado once you get out of Denver, though the SWC has some solid scenery in New Mexico as well.
I suppose the question is which of the three to put your money on...and to be fair, I'm not sure what the OTP situation and/or weather situation would shake out to be on the CZ vs. the EB going forward. The SWC is probably the best bet of the three for avoiding trouble (half an hour on an LD train is not a major delay), but it has the least impressive scenery of the three. The CZ seems to be about the middle of the batch right now, and the EB is just a basket case for the moment...but you are right that such can always change.
I suppose the question is which of the three to put your money on...and to be fair, I'm not sure what the OTP situation and/or weather situation would shake out to be on the CZ vs. the EB going forward. The SWC is probably the best bet of the three for avoiding trouble (half an hour on an LD train is not a major delay), but it has the least impressive scenery of the three. The CZ seems to be about the middle of the batch right now, and the EB is just a basket case for the moment...but you are right that such can always change.
I am still struggling with how to get from SPK-NOL by the 6th, departing SPK on the 3rd or 4th. Based upon the recent frequency of late EB arrivals I changed my EB departure from the the 4th to the 3rd, buit I now see serious service disruptions that could keep me from getting to CHI on the EB. Then, when I try to get a work-around using EB to the CS to the CZ or SWC I find availability problems (either total or sleepers). Frustrating. Any suggestions?
Rail Freak
Engineer
As much as I hate to say it, FLY!
Mackensen
Lead Service Attendant
I'd go with the SWC since it already has exceptional on-time performance and a generally smooth ride (save Kansas). If I had to introduce someone to Amtrak and could only put them on one train it would be that one. One thing that struck me riding the SWC earlier this month is that there's already a high number of first-timers aboard heading for the Grand Canyon. Why not beef up service?
High water, rough tracks, freight traffic, largely all in North Dakota are challenges Amtrak's Empire Builder faces. Since Amtrak doesn't own the rails, Amtrak doesn't have priority to by-pass all of this. Plus the North Dakota congressional delegation won't let Amtrak divert away from Devils Lake, Rugby, and Grand Forks, unless water literally covers the tracks in Devils Lake and closes the line for good.
The Grand Canyon bit hadn't hit me for some reason (I associate it more with CHI-LAX than anything)...you're right that it's really a good "tourist" route (and it's likely to be the western train I'm on overnight the most over the next few years), and that it generates a good deal of first-time traffic...not to mention solid endpoints (CHI/KCY and LAX).
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henryj
Conductor
Yeah, I have a solution for you.......make the Sunset Limited daily. But we all know the flooding will eventually end and the EB will return to normalcy. As for the routes, the EB and the CZ are run for their scenery. The SWC should be competitive with flying and driving if they returned it to a 40 hour schedule. The Sunset is an all weather route(except for that occasional hurricane) that should be daily and probably restored to Florida. The Eagle can just continue as it is.
MikefromCrete
Engineer
The Empire Builder carries more passengers than any other Amtrak LD train. Solutions will be found to the current problem (like the flooding will stop). It will remain Amtrak's top LD train.
The Sunset, unfortunately, operates on the UP, which of course, wants ONE BAZILLION dollars to operate operate eight more trains a week. Unless Congress decides to write a big check (and given the current political scene probably won't), the Sunset is doomed to run only three days a week until the end of time.
Even the daily operation of the Cardinal seems on the back burner. Of course the CSX president says his only goal is to make money for his stockholders so maybe CSX wants TWO BAZILLION DOLLARS to run eight more Cardinal a week. (But the Buckingham Branch RR would probably settle for onLy a HALF BAZILLION DOLARS to run the Cardinal daily).
Sigh............
The Sunset, unfortunately, operates on the UP, which of course, wants ONE BAZILLION dollars to operate operate eight more trains a week. Unless Congress decides to write a big check (and given the current political scene probably won't), the Sunset is doomed to run only three days a week until the end of time.
Even the daily operation of the Cardinal seems on the back burner. Of course the CSX president says his only goal is to make money for his stockholders so maybe CSX wants TWO BAZILLION DOLLARS to run eight more Cardinal a week. (But the Buckingham Branch RR would probably settle for onLy a HALF BAZILLION DOLARS to run the Cardinal daily).
Sigh............
D.P. Roberts
Conductor
I know the EB is supposed to be the "premier train", but I really don't see how it's any better than any of the other trains (at least from a casual rider's perspective). From what I understand, it's more likely to have the most refurbished cars, but it sounds like that's a crapshoot anyway. Better crews? Again, not much public perception of this. The menus in the dining cars appear to be the same. I know the EB has a wine and cheese tasting, but so does the CS - and the CS has the PPC, which is a far more noticeable difference over the EB or any other train. Granted, I've never ridden the SWC, the EB, or the CZ, but as a semi-informed first-time rider I don't see what makes the EB more "premier" over the others. Am I missing something?
Well the lines have blured a bit since the EB was first turned into the "Premier" train.
Back when it first happened, all other LD trains save the Auto Train had no cooked to order (CTO) items on the menu. The EB still typically has at least 1 more CTO than the other trains, but again that line has blurred.
The EB still has all glass in the dining car, no plastic. They also still have cloth table cloths.
The EB generally gets the Superliner I refubs. Yes, there have been cases where a I wasn't available, but they don't happen that often. It's certainly not a "crap shoot".
And as you noted, it has a Wine & Cheese tasting.
You're also given your choice of a bottle of chilled cider or champagne upon boarding.
And they have a special amenity kit that is handed out.
Note that only the first two "perks" are available to coach passengers. Sleeping car pax get all.
Finally, I believe that during peak times they still staff the upper level snack area in the lounge car.
Back when it first happened, all other LD trains save the Auto Train had no cooked to order (CTO) items on the menu. The EB still typically has at least 1 more CTO than the other trains, but again that line has blurred.
The EB still has all glass in the dining car, no plastic. They also still have cloth table cloths.
The EB generally gets the Superliner I refubs. Yes, there have been cases where a I wasn't available, but they don't happen that often. It's certainly not a "crap shoot".
And as you noted, it has a Wine & Cheese tasting.
You're also given your choice of a bottle of chilled cider or champagne upon boarding.
And they have a special amenity kit that is handed out.
Note that only the first two "perks" are available to coach passengers. Sleeping car pax get all.
Finally, I believe that during peak times they still staff the upper level snack area in the lounge car.
*sighs* A 40-hour schedule isn't going to sell to the crowd that wants to get from Chicago to LAX in four hours. On a tight-run timetable, you can put up some semblance of a fight for markets like NYP-CHI or CHI-DEN. Even CHI-DAL could be managed with some faster running (you'd ideally cut about 2-4 hours off the timetable to make that happen...4 PM CHI-9:30 AM DAL is salable in a manner that 2 PM CHI-11:30 AM DAL isn't, especially if airfares keep going up like they have been for the last few years.
And I do think that this is viable: Fuel is only about 8.5% of Amtrak's budget ($332m of $3.8bn) vs...what? 30% of airlines now? If you simply double fuel costs tomorrow, airlines would have to hike airfares by 30-40% (depending on the company) just to keep pace while Amtrak would only need to go up by about 10% to wash the difference out. That is a big deal when you look at some comparative coach (and even sleeper) fares.
Without getting into the rant that was developing, there are a number of markets (WAS-JAX, WAS-ATL, CHI-DAL) where Amtrak coach fares are already severely undercutting airline prices (on short notice, you've got some coach fares that edge the airlines by close to $150 now). Apply another 20% price shock to the net difference (hardly impossible to envision, I would submit) and those closely-priced markets swing in Amtrak's favor...and some of those other gaps become yawning (I think CHI-DAL shoots up to about a $250 edge for Amtrak).
The big problem is a bunch of timings that are between one and four hours too long (CHI-DAL) or that lack good return times (NYP-CHI). The airlines are getting ragged in a lot of markets (costs are just running out of control)...but Amtrak isn't well-positioned to compete in many of those markets at the moment, and lacks the capacity to boot (and regrettably, the morons in Congress won't give them the money needed to get a large enough fleet to close the operating gap even marginally).
Obs in the diner is poor because they do not do reservations for lunch.
Ispolkom
Engineer
All correct. This year the upper-level lounge attendant is on board from Chicago to Whitefish on #7. He overnights there and rides back on #8.
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D.P. Roberts
Conductor
So I guess the question is: would moving these extra services to the CZ or the SWC really affect ridership? I think a lot of those things are great, and I wish they had them on all trains. But I can't imagine paying more or even choosing that particular route over others based on those perks. And to the OP's point - even assuming that the EB will continually run late, would deleting these services make a difference? Honestly, I would almost think the reverse would be true - on a scenic route that tends to be late, you might as well pamper the passengers as much as possible to keep them happy while they're delayed.
Well, the answer to that question turns back to "Did adding those services in the first place drive ridership up?" My gut says "Yes". Of course, there's also the issue of "How much long term damage will chronic delays do to the train's brand?" And finally, "How much of the EB's numbers are capacity-driven?" After all, the EB has 3 sleepers and a dorm, plus 4 coaches, vs. 2 sleepers, a dorm, and 3 coaches on most LD trains. If anything, I would suggest that the EB's numbers (and the Auto Train's as well) are evidence backing up the assertion I've made that a good deal of what is killing the LD service is short consists.
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I'd have to go dig out the numbers from back then, but as I recall those changes did bring about a sharp increase in ridership for the EB. Just how much it's helping now with service a bit more normalized is probably less clear.
Regarding the numbers, while the EB's revenue is impressive, so are its expenses. The EB brought in the most revenue of all the LD's, outdoing even the Auto Train by a bit. Yet it also had the highest expenses of any train and by $16 Million. That put it second, behind only the Southwest Chief, for loosing the most money.
So while it's revenues are impressive at least in part due to the perks, so are it's losses unfortunately.
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