The Engine Switcharoo

[jis]

Good thing you plan to stop

That should be interesting. Take out one or two tables in the Diner to find space for the big 12kV transformer and associated circuitry.

For lower voltage electrification in Switzerland SBB-CFF-FFS has actually operated Diners with pantograph in the past. But then Swiss railways is more universally electrified than US railroad by a very very long shot.

 

[ronkstevens]

So if I understand this correctly, the ONLY place on the car to connect to the 480 line is on the car ends where they connect to the next car/locomotive? There isn't a side connection where a connection to shore power can be made?

If this is the case then the blue flag regulations are perfectly in line since you are required to be in an unsafe area to connect/disconnect.

 

[Ryan]

Yes.

 

[Big Iron]

Thirdrail7, Thank you for the explanation. I understand safety is the top point of regulation. Interestingly, people still manage to get hurt.

However, to say that swapping engines is akin to removing engines off a jet is just ... I won't say it.

Ryan, I understand (now) that the circuitry is different. I wouldn't imagine it being that difficult to update the architecture, but as we here all know, any redesign takes money and we all know that's in short supply.

How about we fit a pantograph to every diner? It could then feed the rest of the train while on electric and drop the panto during diesel ops...

Ok ok ok ... I'll stop.

Of couse, you would also have to equip the diners with high voltage transformers, rectifiers, inverters, circuit breakers and all the otter paraphernalia needed to get from the catenary power to usable power. There would be no room for a kitchen.

But you could have one whale of a microwave!!

 

[Gord]

That is the most ridiculous procedure I think I've ever seen actually written.

That is the most ridiculous procedure I think I've ever seen actually written.

You might not think so if it was your neck on the line. This is all about protecting railroaders from getting injured or killed and the rules have evolved because people have been injured and killed. The blue flag rule is universal to railroads and many transit agencies and has been around in one form or another for around a century. I work on this stuff all the time and I sure don't want anything to move when I'm between the rails making up connections or doing other work.

It can't be compared to an aircraft situation unless a mechanic had to work close to a jet engine or landing gear and I'll bet there are a ton of regs about that.

Gord

 

[Bus Nut]

Sounds like these are issues that need to back way up to when capital equipment is designed, and if that sounds like a big lift, it is.

As a former regular NEC rider I'd rather see Baltimore fixed than worry about power at DC, honestly.

 

[RampWidget]

Thirdrail7, Thank you for the explanation. I understand safety is the top point of regulation. Interestingly, people still manage to get hurt.

However, to say that swapping engines is akin to removing engines off a jet is just ... I won't say it.

Ryan, I understand (now) that the circuitry is different. I wouldn't imagine it being that difficult to update the architecture, but as we here all know, any redesign takes money and we all know that's in short supply.

How about we fit a pantograph to every diner? It could then feed the rest of the train while on electric and drop the panto during diesel ops...

Ok ok ok ... I'll stop.

One point of difference between aircraft ground power and 480v HEP is that the electrical loads are vastly different. Aircraft ground power only has to operate electrical subsystems for lighting, instruments, cockpit displays, galleys, and the lavs. Aircraft air conditioning systems are completely separate. They operate off engine bleed air, which is why on the ground, the substitute, that big yellow air conditioning hose, sometimes has a hard time keeping the cabin cool. When switching to/from aircraft power to ground power, it's a fairly simple circuit with an appreciably lower amperage than 480v HEP.

OTOH, on board a train, 480v HEP is required for everything - lighting, full kitchens including ovens & freezers, plus HVAC, fresh water, and waste systems in each car. Cycling a train's HEP vs. putting an aircraft on ground power isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison, IMHO.

 

[X]

49 CFR 218 Blue Signal Protection applies only to workers on, under, or between rolling equipment. I'm not aware of any FRA rule requiring that a train be flagged while ground power is connected and energized.

Theoretically the train could be connected to ground power when the locomotive is being disconnected, turned on once the locomotive is clear and the flag is dropped, and remain energized until the new locomotive is ready to couple up.

 

[RampWidget]

You might not think so if it was your neck on the line. This is all about protecting railroaders from getting injured or killed and the rules have evolved because people have been injured and killed. The blue flag rule is universal to railroads and many transit agencies and has been around in one form or another for around a century. I work on this stuff all the time and I sure don't want anything to move when I'm between the rails making up connections or doing other work.

It can't be compared to an aircraft situation unless a mechanic had to work close to a jet engine or landing gear and I'll bet there are a ton of regs about that.

Gord

Agree with you about the need for and intent of rail worker blue signal laws. They are cumbersome and sometimes difficult to interpret, but we have them in place because we have to protect non-operating craft workers who must be in a position that puts them in harm's way.

As for aircraft situation, I can't speak to maintenance facilities, but when I worked on the flightline in commercial aviation, once the aircraft is parked at the gate, it is chocked, depowered, and the nose gear steering is locked out from the ground.

Unless the laws have changed significantly since then, you were responsible for your own well-being as you moved about the aircraft and ramp, and that included staying aware of moving aircraft, engine intake suction, and jet exhaust blast. (Full disclosure - that was over 20 years ago :unsure: )

 

[RampWidget]

49 CFR 218 Blue Signal Protection applies only to workers on, under, or between rolling equipment. I'm not aware of any FRA rule requiring that a train be flagged while ground power is connected and energized.

Theoretically the train could be connected to ground power when the locomotive is being disconnected, turned on once the locomotive is clear and the flag is dropped, and remain energized until the new locomotive is ready to couple up.

Depends on who is performing the work. If it is the train's own crew performing work in connection with their own train, then blue signal protection is not required. Any other craft or another person who is not a member of that train's crew is considered to fall under the blue flag requirements. (There are very limited exceptions for emergency situations on a main track).

 

[Guest]

49 CFR 218 Blue Signal Protection applies only to workers on, under, or between rolling equipment. I'm not aware of any FRA rule requiring that a train be flagged while ground power is connected and energized.

Theoretically the train could be connected to ground power when the locomotive is being disconnected, turned on once the locomotive is clear and the flag is dropped, and remain energized until the new locomotive is ready to couple up.

Try selling the FRA your theory.....

Blue flag protection is required when workman are working on cars or locomotives in Washington Terminal. The cars would have to be under blue flag protection to connect ground power.

 

[Jon]

For all the aspersions cast on Amtrak's Chicago staff, they routinely manage to hook trains into station power at Chicago Union Station. As far as I know, all Amtrak (and Metra) trains at CUS use station power because of the relatively poor ventilation of the covered platforms.

The lights going off for a few seconds, after station power is detached and before HEP kicks in, isn't a bug but a feature. It's the signal to passengers that, all announcements and anticipation aside, the train is really about to leave.

Mind you, Chicago Union Station is the terminal for every train serving it while Washington and Albany have through trains.

Not exactly. We don't hook up to station power in Chicago, the lights going off then back on is the engineer placing the engine in standby essentially to save fuel. The engine continues to run regardless of the poor ventilation. Metra usually leaves their screamers screaming too...

 

[jis]

Thank you. I was about to point that out too!

Just because lights go out for a short duration and then come on again does not imply anything about Shore Power. Such happens even when a train is put into a siding for a long stop, even in the middle of nowhere. The reason is as explained above.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Thank you. I was about to point that out too!

Just because lights go out for a short duration and then come on again does not imply anything about Shore Power. Such happens even when a train is put into a siding for a long stop, even in the middle of nowhere. The reason is as explained above.

Or picking up a PV (as happened to me at IND on the way to the Chicago gathering).

 

[John Bredin]

Wow, you learn something new every day. :hi: I had presumed (or assumed :giggle: ) it was station power because (1) the engine revs up as the lights come back on, and (2) Union Pacific doesn't do it at Ogilvie.

 

[X]

49 CFR 218 Blue Signal Protection applies only to workers on, under, or between rolling equipment. I'm not aware of any FRA rule requiring that a train be flagged while ground power is connected and energized.

Theoretically the train could be connected to ground power when the locomotive is being disconnected, turned on once the locomotive is clear and the flag is dropped, and remain energized until the new locomotive is ready to couple up.

Try selling the FRA your theory.....

Blue flag protection is required when workman are working on cars or locomotives in Washington Terminal. The cars would have to be under blue flag protection to connect ground power.

Yes, which is why you connect it while the train is flagged to disconnect the old locomotive, ground power then remains on until the new locomotive is coupled and the train flagged back up.

 

[X]

Wow, you learn something new every day. :hi: I had presumed (or assumed :giggle: ) it was station power because (1) the engine revs up as the lights come back on, and (2) Union Pacific doesn't do it at Ogilvie.

When a GE is in run HEP is supplied by a HEP alternator that requires the engine to be running at full RPM to produce 60Hz power. Once you go to standby the engine throttles down to save fuel and HEP comes from one of the traction inverters.

 

[neroden]

Some years ago, the FRA decided this longstanding practice was no longer good enough.

The FRA has gotten completely asinine. To the point where every passenger operator who can manage it gets out from under their deranged regulatory regime, and gets under FTA regulations instead. The FTA regulations seem to have a lower injury rate, too...

The biggest problem is the FRA's antiquated and inaccurate concept of "crashworthiness", about which much has been written. But there's a lot of other similar stuff where the FRA just doesn't seem to be trying to adopt modern practice, and seems insistent on reinventing wheels instead.

In all fairness, this is also the attitude of the Class I freight railroad managements. PTC is an off-the-shelf technology, but the Class I managements are making claims like "we're inventing it as we install it" because they *refused to use any of the off-the-shelf implementations*. There seems to be a serious not-invented-here problem in American railroad culture.

It's a little better in the transit world, where they actually adopt things like Scharfenberg couplers and fully automated coupling (including electrics and pneumatics).

 

[PowerUp]

I don't even know where to begin with this thread...

First, HEP rules are not FRA. They are Amtrak safety rules, written in blood. See AMT-5. However, FRA inspectors do enforce Amtrak's, and all other railroads, written rules.

Second, HEP is absolutely nothing like plugging an airplane into one little connection at a gate. There are four large HEP cable connections between every car, two on each side. Within each "cable" there are three large wires that carry the power and an additional continuity wire. At the end of the train the cable on each side is plugged back into the adjacent receptacle to form a complete circuit. Without this loop, there is no continuity and the power source (locomotive or ground) will not energize. The continuity wire has a shorter pin so when a cable head comes loose the power will shut off before a live circuit can be exposed. You also cannot have two separate power sources connected at the same time as there would be no continuity.

If anyone is doing any work between cars or near the 480v cables the HEP power must be shut down and isolated before starting work. 480v is not like your household power. It is extra crispy.

When you hook up ground power, you must make four connections like you would to a locomotive. Two into the train and two out. Now you have four large, heavy and long cables lying across the track and walking paths where employees are trying to complete the locomotive swap as quickly as possible. Every time you want to plug or unplug a cable, the power has to be shut down and nothing can be moving. Every time you want to couple or uncouple a car or locomotive, the power has to be shut down.

The locomotive swaps happen pretty quickly in WUS. It simply is not feasible to put trains on ground power for all of 5 minutes while the inbound locomotives are pulling away and the outbound ones are backing up.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Some years ago, the FRA decided this longstanding practice was no longer good enough.

The FRA has gotten completely asinine. To the point where every passenger operator who can manage it gets out from under their deranged regulatory regime, and gets under FTA regulations instead. The FTA regulations seem to have a lower injury rate, too...

The biggest problem is the FRA's antiquated and inaccurate concept of "crashworthiness", about which much has been written. But there's a lot of other similar stuff where the FRA just doesn't seem to be trying to adopt modern practice, and seems insistent on reinventing wheels instead.

In all fairness, this is also the attitude of the Class I freight railroad managements. PTC is an off-the-shelf technology, but the Class I managements are making claims like "we're inventing it as we install it" because they *refused to use any of the off-the-shelf implementations*. There seems to be a serious not-invented-here problem in American railroad culture.

It's a little better in the transit world, where they actually adopt things like Scharfenberg couplers and fully automated coupling (including electrics and pneumatics).

PTC is not an "off the shelf" technology. Everything I've read about is that it is being invented from scratch. Safety is the most important factor in railroading. Glad you're cavalier in regards to the life and limb of employees and passengers. I guess it's not that dangerous sitting in front of your computer working on your Amtrak spreadsheets.

 

[Ryan]

Lighten up, dude. PTC *is* off the shelf technology. His point is that rather than using it, the Class I's are all going off and inventing their own systems, instead of just using something that already exists.

 

[Bjartmarr]

Glad you're cavalier in regards to the life and limb of employees and passengers. I guess it's not that dangerous sitting in front of your computer working on your Amtrak spreadsheets.

This kind of personal attack does not advance the discussion.

For the record, I don't know much about PTC specifically, but in many complex systems it is often safer to use a mature, thoroughly tested system rather than invent something new and have to work out all the bugs yourself.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

If anyone is doing any work between cars or near the 480v cables the HEP power must be shut down and isolated before starting work. 480v is not like your household power. It is extra crispy.

If you have a Scanner handy when this is happening, you will hear the Conductor/Engineer or whoever call for and confirm 3 Point or 3 Step Protection. That requires the Engineer to set the brakes, center the Reverser and drop HEP and Field Generators.

 

[chakk]

And as they say ... many of those rules, specially the ones having to do with "blue flag", were written in someone's blood. Running a real railroad is much different from running my HO setup in the back room

We did it all "by the book" on the huge HO layout in Sedona, AZ over the weekend. Took a minimum of 90 minutes to run ANY train once around the layout. (Granted, the layout does have 2500 feet of double-track mainline.)

 

[VentureForth]

And as they say ... many of those rules, specially the ones having to do with "blue flag", were written in someone's blood. Running a real railroad is much different from running my HO setup in the back room

We did it all "by the book" on the huge HO layout in Sedona, AZ over the weekend. Took a minimum of 90 minutes to run ANY train once around the layout. (Granted, the layout does have 2500 feet of double-track mainline.)

You should have been able to do it in 1/87th the time.