The Best Days Of Passenger Rail Lie Ahead

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So you criticize the breeder reactors as not having been built to commercial scale, but then invoke a type of power generation that has not been built to commercial scale. (solar thermal). Then you invoke natural gas, when I have plainly been talking about life AFTER fossil fuels. Enough. Back to trains, I'm done with this stuff.
Lack of commercial scale operations is just one of several caveats. Solar-thermal does not share the limitations of top-end cost and weapons grade material production. Nor has Solar-thermal enjoyed tens-of-billions of dollars in research funding with surprisingly little to show for it since the 1950's. Hundreds of years from now, when we've finally burned every last bit of fossil fuel into the atmosphere, I don't think it will matter much what we choose as our next power source. Heck, it will probably be chosen for us in the form of dead wood lighting the huts of our mutated hunter-gatherer offspring. :lol:
 
Texan Eagle, I think you are right about the probable direction of Amtrak over the next 10-20 years. A lot of us want 200 mph hsr zipping into every city of any size, but with the wide spread geography of the US, the best we can hope for is a much more widely spread InterCity service in the 100-125 mph range and a slow expansion of 150+ mph in the higher density areas. Who knows, if Amtrak can find a way to keep the Superliners super safe while lightening them up we could see higher efficiency and possibly a higher rated top speed to boot.

As ridership continues to climb, the efficiencies of scale come into play on routes that have a single train per day now could add extra trains as the trainsets are purchased thereby making the route much more attractive to more riders... And the one thing I would love to see is the Acela growing its route, first down to Atlanta, and then possibly from NYC to Chicago. It would be great if the Acela could then extend from Chicago to DC but I am not sure that the trackage there, with its twists and turns and low population density, would be the best for Acela. Maybe the Cardinal route?

Another possibility would be a return of 2 unit Budd cars in the west rated at 110-120 mph. Imagine a service that required just a team of two, engineer and conductor, and possibly a snack car attendant. Would the UTU accept it if they were an expansion of their numbers or would they demand that there be a fireman as well? ;-)

It might not be anytime soon, but eventually all passenger trains will be higher speed electric. I hate to see the diesels go but I'm sure the old timers felt similar when the diesels took over when they phased out steam engines. Superliners have been around 30 years. They could be around another 30 years or they could be condemned much sooner. It really is anybody's guess. Whether it is in my lifetime or not, the death of the big, loud and slow diesels will come to an end. I am in my 30s so I may be lucky enough to see diesels until the end.
I don't see diesels going anywhere anytime soon. Mindless electrification of an entire nations's railway network is never a good idea. (This debate is currently very hot among rail fans in India, jis can fill in with his expertise). Rail routes with low to moderate traffic are best served by diesel locomotives. The whole infrastructure of setting up electric wires and letting electricity run through them 24x7 is very expensive and not justified for low traffic routes. A good mix of electric and diesel hauled routes can work fine for a country as large as united States.

Here is my idea. I view some of the bailouts as a waste of money. Why not use the billions for something tangible? A sort of 'New Deal' for the 21st century. Let's do a transcontinental railroad part deux. Maybe a NYC to LA (for starters) high speed train with new lines and cutting edge technology for the highest speeds possible. This would spark the economy, employ thousands but most importantly, you would be adding real value to America just like adding a pool adds to the value of a house. The price would be extreme, but worth it in my opinion. Keep in mind, I am arguing for this as a non-railfan since I have no more attachment to an electric train than I do an airport shuttle. America needs a big project. It's been far too long. Unfortunately, Congress is corrupt and the status quo (airlines, oil, you name it) will not stand for any transcontinental bullet train.
Yes, America needs more passenger rail. No doubt about it. However, I don't think the idea of transcontinental rail travel will cut favor among anyone except hardcore railfans. Instead, what is required, to generate large scale employment and economy revival like the Eisenhower Interstates project did, is constructing lots and lots of corridor services across the country. Any route between major cities that is 1-2 hours by flight time (takeoff to landing) and 2 to 8 hours of driving time should get intercity moderate to high speed rail link. No need of insane talks like 200mph lines and bullet trains. NE Regional and Acela type service with 125-150 mph on improved existing (or new) right of way can work well, and if there are sufficient such "corridors", it can also help run a few high speed transcontinental trains for those who might be interested. For example, if there are 100-125mph passenger corridors Philadelphia-Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis, Indianapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City, Kansas City-Oklahoma City-Dallas-San Antonio, then you can have intercity trains running between individual city pairs, and then maybe one long distance train cutting across corridors and running, say, Boston-San Antonio! Of course, as one goes further west, the distance between cities increases and it may not be feasible to run corridor services between say, Denver and Salt Lake City or Las Vegas, but say more or less east of the Rockies there can be a mesh of intercity passenger corridors and then another set of corridors in the West in SD-LA-SF-Seattle region. The connection between the two sets of corridors can be through few long distance trains.

Ok, end of daydreams. I know this is not gonna happen anytime in my life (and I am in my twenties), but no harm dreaming, ain't it? :)
 
I thought that the subject of this thread was The best Days of Passenger Rail Lie ahead. "What can we expect in the next decade?"
In spite of the subtext in the tile most of the thread including the OP has been about energy efficiency and such AFAICT. So why suddenly change now? :)

Actually I think the real rail revival that has been taking place and will continue to take place is not in the realm of Amtrak, but in the area of commuter service and light rail service, specially in the next ten years. Amtrak will make significant progress in corridors, but I do not expect there to be very significant growth in general LD service. Where LD-ish service can be put in place by stringing corridors end to end together, some progress will be made.

In the Amtrak and state supported Amtrak arena, I expect to see significant enhancement of service in :

1. Midwest corridors out of Chicago.

2. North East Corridor and its extensions south perhaps all the way to Jacksonville.

3. Empire Corridor

4. California Corridors - with an opportunity for a day train from San Fran to LA by stringing corridors together at San Louis Obispo.

5. Cascade Corridor.

6. Florida FEC Corridor.

Just my quick list of where I see significant action forthcoming in the near future.
 
I have no clue where growth will happen.

I do think as part of infrastructure upgrades, improvements in rail access between cities including overhead electrification makes sense. That new track could be used for either freight or passenger. This would not necessarily be high speed rail. Instead it would allow transition from diesel/electric to electric engines across more track miles. I think dedicated passenger only high speed rail makes limited sense in most areas. Tracks with electrification supporting a mix of passenger and freight would be far more flexible and provide better long term value. Take a good look at semi truck traffic between city pairs and anywhere there is high volume between cities, adding new track along with efficient container handling at each end could make a difference. Passenger rail would just piggy back on new tracks designed mostly around freight needs.

I also think adding additional bridges across major rivers such as the Mississippi would be a good investment.

I think any plan driven only by analyzing passenger rail traffic needs and not including freight will fail.

My two cents worth...
 
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Yes, despite our hopes that rail service might improve out here in Ohio, I think Jishnu's evaluation is correct. There is little support to build passenger rail service where Interstate highways provide the majority of service to people in the Big 3 cities of our state. :(

Just hope we continue to be served by our CL and LSL trains so that one might seek civilization in Chicago and the East Coast :lol:
 
I thought that the subject of this thread was The best Days of Passenger Rail Lie ahead. "What can we expect in the next decade?"
In spite of the subtext in the tile most of the thread including the OP has been about energy efficiency and such AFAICT. So why suddenly change now? :)

Actually I think the real rail revival that has been taking place and will continue to take place is not in the realm of Amtrak, but in the area of commuter service and light rail service, specially in the next ten years. Amtrak will make significant progress in corridors, but I do not expect there to be very significant growth in general LD service. Where LD-ish service can be put in place by stringing corridors end to end together, some progress will be made.

In the Amtrak and state supported Amtrak arena, I expect to see significant enhancement of service in :

1. Midwest corridors out of Chicago.

2. North East Corridor and its extensions south perhaps all the way to Jacksonville.

3. Empire Corridor

4. California Corridors - with an opportunity for a day train from San Fran to LA by stringing corridors together at San Louis Obispo.

5. Cascade Corridor.

6. Florida FEC Corridor.

Just my quick list of where I see significant action forthcoming in the near future.
Generally, I tend to agree (note that the most talked-about LD additions are duplications of existing routes...the Silver Palm would basically be a differently-timed Meteor, for example, while the Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian service doesn't technically add a train). I would put one caveat in here: I think it is entirely possible that, if demand rises enough to push prices substantially closer to break-even on the LD side, we might see Amtrak examine running a second section on an LD route. The Auto Train is probably the best candidate here (though facility limits are likely to block this), but I could see it with the Lake Shore Limited or Empire Builder (the other option that comes to mind is a separate Denver Zephyr while the California Zephyr is D/R on much of the eastern part of the route). It's certainly more likely than virtually any completely-new route that I can think of.

In between a full new route being added and longer trains would come the possibilities of second trains on large parts of LD corridors with different schedules. There's a lot of precedent here (the NYP-CHI schedules during the late 1990s/early 2000s come to mind). The other "in the middle" possibility would be splitting more LD trains...there's been active consideration on both the Cardinal (to STL) and the Silvers (to MIA via the FEC) for this.

On the corridor side, I think you'll see an expanding net here. Looking at 2010 in context, a lot of the projects that got killed after those elections are likely to come back up once various states start running surpluses again. It strikes me that most of the rail projects that got derailed were collateral damage rather than major objects of public disdain (Wisconsin being the possible exception here...but even there, the project was poorly-sold). The Florida project was the other "odd hat"...canning it was very unpopular, but (and I've been over this elsewhere) I think it was ultimately the right move because of how that project was designed/handled.
 
On the corridor side, I think you'll see an expanding net here. Looking at 2010 in context, a lot of the projects that got killed after those elections are likely to come back up once various states start running surpluses again. It strikes me that most of the rail projects that got derailed were collateral damage rather than major objects of public disdain (Wisconsin being the possible exception here...but even there, the project was poorly-sold). The Florida project was the other "odd hat"...canning it was very unpopular, but (and I've been over this elsewhere) I think it was ultimately the right move because of how that project was designed/handled.
My take on what happened with the Wisconsin project:

"First, passenger rail is not some pet scheme of socialistic red termite liberals. Midwest Regional, developed by a consortium of nine states, was led by WisDOT under a Republican governor. ProRail, the large, south-central Wisconsin chapter of Wisc. Assoc. of RR Passengers, was founded by Pat Robbins, a lifelong Republican. (In fact, Mr Walker is lucky she's no longer alive, or he would be missing some skin, now.)
Second, the project has nothing to do with Amtrak, beyond the presumption that it would operate the service; but maintenance would be out of Amtrak's hands (and out of Chicago).

Third, Amtrak is in no sense a "failed system", as its growing ridership would suggest (against all odds, such as too-many-cooks meddling by politicians and aging equipment and obstructionism by its landlord railroads). All the criticism I ever see against Amtrak consists of a recycled urban myths, plus almost defiant ignorance of the fact that ALL transportation systems enjoy large public subsidies, Amtrak's being peculiar only because of its size (small) and the annual noisy spectacle of begging for support for it for another year. No such noisy and unedifying wrangling surrounds subsidies for highways, or emerged over the past two fiscal years when the federal "highway trust fund" had to be topped off by $28 billion from the general fund.

Fourth, the "high speed" plans for the MAD–MKE segment were compromised, only for the duration, by an FRA decree a couple of years ago limiting the speeds of trains until Positive Train Control was implemented. That's supposed to happen in 2015 (no one in the industry thinks that's possible). But when and if it did happen, the engineering of the Waterloo Spur and the main line between Watertown and Milwaukee would have been been ready, having been designed for 110 mph operation. Upgrading MKE–CHI for 110 mph passenger was to have been a later phase of the Midwest Regional project.

Fifth, the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative was NOT cooked up by "rail enthusiasts". It was undertaken by nine state departments of transportation—effectively departments of highways under another name—most of which had little or no previous experience in or any particular enthusiasm for passenger rail, the chief exceptions being Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin (marginally), and Missouri.

Sixth, the Midwest Regional plans were essentially complete 1999, except for some ongoing tweaking. All that was needed was funding. That was never easy to see coming, and of course the Bush recession pretty much brought an end to hopes for federal involvement. Finally, after 15 years of planning, environmental studies, etc., FULL funding suddenly appeared, in a complication-free form that no one had anticipated in their wildest dreams.

Seventh, my sense is that the responsible citizens and policy makers who were in favor of this project lost control of the narrative very early on. This was probably because it had not been anticipated that a project that had been favorably and publicly evaluated, and whose need was obvious, over a period of half a generation, would suddenly be the target of a furious (if largely fact-free) assault. For example, the Madison project was mischaracterized as a "train to Milwaukee", whereas it's really multiple trains to and from Chicago. With a stop at Milwaukee (among other places). Even those who knew that there are already trains between MKE and CHI didn't seem to understand that the "train to Milwaukee" was simply an extension of that highly successful service, no one would have to change trains in Milwaukee, etc., etc. (The "future extension" to Chicago that one sometimes saw mentioned in the media coverage had to do with 110 mph operation over the route that would be covered by current 80 mph speeds until the upgrades.)

Eighth, it seemed to me from Walker's first comments on the subject that he had a very limited grasp of the bare facts. He seems to have thought, for instance, that the Madison project was something clapped up by (ugh) liberals trying to make a play for some federal money (so like a liberal). He seemed to think that there was some sort of uncertainty about "where to put the tracks" for the operation, for instance. His recent remark about supporting passenger operations on "existing tracks" suggests that he doesn't know of the existence of the Waterloo Spur between Watertown and Madison. AND as for using the funds for highways, he never somehow mentions that $700 million that Wisconsin got from ARRA funds explicitly for highway construction. And as for the economics, I somehow can't see Walker refusing construction funds for an Interstate highway, or major upgrading of a US highway, on the grounds that Wisconsin will then be stuck with the costs of maintaining it.

I don't actually remember where I saw, recently, among comments on a "Milwaukee train" story, a remark about avoiding the mistakes of "failed high speed passenger train projects". Like so many comments, it gave no specifics, and I'm at a loss to think of any.

Oh, and a final remark. I've several times seen sneering remarks about how the "train to Milwaukee" would be making "all these intermediate stops" (two, to be exact) and so would never be able to attain the promised 110 mph for more than a few miles. Well, the acceleration of a standard trainset like the ones serving the Hiawathas between CHI and MKE is 1.5 mph per second. That's far less than your grandmothers BMW, of course, but you can do the math: it would take all of 75 seconds to go from zero to 110 at that rate.

.. . . . . .

This $8 billion fund was set up for passenger rail projects. States had to apply for it, for specific projects. More than $100 billion in projects were applied for. Wisconsin got the second-largest grant of all, for the Madison project, and appropriately: the proposal rested on long and careful and detailed planning and development, had been studied by two engineering consulting firms, the environmental studies were all out of the way, and the project was not a hastily scraped-together one-off but Phase One of a major, multi-phase nine-state plan that had been developed over a period of 15 years. No one was trying to jam passenger rail money down Wisconsin's throat. Wisconsin went after the funds, and secured them by proposing an uncommonly complete and funding-worthy project.

What Walker proposed is analogous to a kid who gets a full scholarship for college and then wants to know if it would be OK with the college if he just skips school and uses the money to buy himself a Hummer. No, you can't. You asked for the money for a specific purpose, it was never in doubt that the money was being granted for a specific purpose, and if you decide you no longer want to pursue the project, the deal is off. There's nothing that's hard to understand about that. A conspiracy theory, here, like all conspiracy theories, is notably more complicated than the simple truth.
 
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I thought that the subject of this thread was The best Days of Passenger Rail Lie ahead. "What can we expect in the next decade?"
In spite of the subtext in the tile most of the thread including the OP has been about energy efficiency and such AFAICT. So why suddenly change now? :)
The thread did get sidetracked into the minutia of energy efficient metrics for different methods of transportation which are difficult to get meaningful comparisons for given the complexities. Then went even further OT with Yuca Mountain and breeder reactors. Yes, every train should have a nuclear powered locomotive! :lol: More productive to discuss the need and metrics for energy efficient travel in a broader context rather than in BTU/furlong per fortnight - in another thread.

In the longer run, the next 10 to 20 years, I think we will see growth and expansion in intercity passenger trains, regardless of the outcome of the election this fall. The election this fall matters a great deal because it will be the difference between growth and expansion in the next few years with some coordinated planning. Or a setback with passenger trains and transit thrown under the gas guzzling SUVs with years lost which will have to be made up when the cold hard reality of the limits and the sooner or later declining daily world oil production finally breaks through the barriers of the anger and denial stage much of the US population appears to be in.

I agree with your list of the 6 regions or corridors where we are likely to see the expansion and improvements of Amtrak services concentrated in the next 5-8 years. Although I would add the New England states as a group for central New England and Maine with growth and improvements with New Hampshire not playing along.

edit: wording fixes.
 
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I agree with your list of the 6 regions or corridors where we are likely to see the expansion and improvements of Amtrak services concentrated in the next 5-8 years. Although I would add the New England states as a group for central New England and Maine growth and improvements with New Hampshire not playing along.
I agree with you. I missed that. The whole area of Boston and north even including possibilities towards Vermont and Montreal are intriguing.
 
My take on what happened with the Wisconsin project:

"First, passenger rail is not some pet scheme of socialistic red termite liberals. Midwest Regional, developed by a consortium of nine states, was led by WisDOT under a Republican governor. ProRail, the large, south-central Wisconsin chapter of Wisc. Assoc. of RR Passengers, was founded by Pat Robbins, a lifelong Republican. (In fact, Mr Walker is lucky she's no longer alive, or he would be missing some skin, now.)
Second, the project has nothing to do with Amtrak, beyond the presumption that it would operate the service; but maintenance would be out of Amtrak's hands (and out of Chicago).

Third, Amtrak is in no sense a "failed system", as its growing ridership would suggest (against all odds, such as too-many-cooks meddling by politicians and aging equipment and obstructionism by its landlord railroads). All the criticism I ever see against Amtrak consists of a recycled urban myths, plus almost defiant ignorance of the fact that ALL transportation systems enjoy large public subsidies, Amtrak's being peculiar only because of its size (small) and the annual noisy spectacle of begging for support for it for another year. No such noisy and unedifying wrangling surrounds subsidies for highways, or emerged over the past two fiscal years when the federal "highway trust fund" had to be topped off by $28 billion from the general fund.

Fourth, the "high speed" plans for the MAD–MKE segment were compromised, only for the duration, by an FRA decree a couple of years ago limiting the speeds of trains until Positive Train Control was implemented. That's supposed to happen in 2015 (no one in the industry thinks that's possible). But when and if it did happen, the engineering of the Waterloo Spur and the main line between Watertown and Milwaukee would have been been ready, having been designed for 110 mph operation. Upgrading MKE–CHI for 110 mph passenger was to have been a later phase of the Midwest Regional project.

Fifth, the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative was NOT cooked up by "rail enthusiasts". It was undertaken by nine state departments of transportation—effectively departments of highways under another name—most of which had little or no previous experience in or any particular enthusiasm for passenger rail, the chief exceptions being Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin (marginally), and Missouri.

Sixth, the Midwest Regional plans were essentially complete 1999, except for some ongoing tweaking. All that was needed was funding. That was never easy to see coming, and of course the Bush recession pretty much brought an end to hopes for federal involvement. Finally, after 15 years of planning, environmental studies, etc., FULL funding suddenly appeared, in a complication-free form that no one had anticipated in their wildest dreams.

Seventh, my sense is that the responsible citizens and policy makers who were in favor of this project lost control of the narrative very early on. This was probably because it had not been anticipated that a project that had been favorably and publicly evaluated, and whose need was obvious, over a period of half a generation, would suddenly be the target of a furious (if largely fact-free) assault. For example, the Madison project was mischaracterized as a "train to Milwaukee", whereas it's really multiple trains to and from Chicago. With a stop at Milwaukee (among other places). Even those who knew that there are already trains between MKE and CHI didn't seem to understand that the "train to Milwaukee" was simply an extension of that highly successful service, no one would have to change trains in Milwaukee, etc., etc. (The "future extension" to Chicago that one sometimes saw mentioned in the media coverage had to do with 110 mph operation over the route that would be covered by current 80 mph speeds until the upgrades.)

Eighth, it seemed to me from Walker's first comments on the subject that he had a very limited grasp of the bare facts. He seems to have thought, for instance, that the Madison project was something clapped up by (ugh) liberals trying to make a play for some federal money (so like a liberal). He seemed to think that there was some sort of uncertainty about "where to put the tracks" for the operation, for instance. His recent remark about supporting passenger operations on "existing tracks" suggests that he doesn't know of the existence of the Waterloo Spur between Watertown and Madison. AND as for using the funds for highways, he never somehow mentions that $700 million that Wisconsin got from ARRA funds explicitly for highway construction. And as for the economics, I somehow can't see Walker refusing construction funds for an Interstate highway, or major upgrading of a US highway, on the grounds that Wisconsin will then be stuck with the costs of maintaining it.

I don't actually remember where I saw, recently, among comments on a "Milwaukee train" story, a remark about avoiding the mistakes of "failed high speed passenger train projects". Like so many comments, it gave no specifics, and I'm at a loss to think of any.

Oh, and a final remark. I've several times seen sneering remarks about how the "train to Milwaukee" would be making "all these intermediate stops" (two, to be exact) and so would never be able to attain the promised 110 mph for more than a few miles. Well, the acceleration of a standard trainset like the ones serving the Hiawathas between CHI and MKE is 1.5 mph per second. That's far less than your grandmothers BMW, of course, but you can do the math: it would take all of 75 seconds to go from zero to 110 at that rate.

.. . . . . .

This $8 billion fund was set up for passenger rail projects. States had to apply for it, for specific projects. More than $100 billion in projects were applied for. Wisconsin got the second-largest grant of all, for the Madison project, and appropriately: the proposal rested on long and careful and detailed planning and development, had been studied by two engineering consulting firms, the environmental studies were all out of the way, and the project was not a hastily scraped-together one-off but Phase One of a major, multi-phase nine-state plan that had been developed over a period of 15 years. No one was trying to jam passenger rail money down Wisconsin's throat. Wisconsin went after the funds, and secured them by proposing an uncommonly complete and funding-worthy project.

What Walker proposed is analogous to a kid who gets a full scholarship for college and then wants to know if it would be OK with the college if he just skips school and uses the money to buy himself a Hummer. No, you can't. You asked for the money for a specific purpose, it was never in doubt that the money was being granted for a specific purpose, and if you decide you no longer want to pursue the project, the deal is off. There's nothing that's hard to understand about that. A conspiracy theory, here, like all conspiracy theories, is notably more complicated than the simple truth.
WOW. Very, very well put.
 
The interesting thing to observe is that Amtrak doesn't even try to be energy efficient particularly. It is not a metric on which their performance is measured by anyone. And yet, almost in spite of themselves they come out as good as they do.

Statistics is a such a wonderful thing, specially mindlessly rolled up statistics. Try running a vanpool with the legroom that you get on Amtrak and see what happens to their energy efficiency for example. Similarly, try running an Amtrak service with carefully scheduled service so as to minimize deadhead moves and using seat spacing same as in van pools and see what happens. The 20.7 per vehicle on Amtrak seems low. Perhaps corridor figures for Amtrak ought to be computed separately to get a more realistic number.
Agreed, sdtatistics can be misleading, especilally if all the oil used by transportation modes is not considered. Start adding the oil used in tens of thousands of miles of road pavement and all the road maintenance, construction and patrol equipment, all paid for by taxpayers. Then look at railroads, the majority of which pay for their own right of way and structure costs. Maintenance and repair of railorad track and structures will always be more efficient and use less oil than roads. The steel wheel on steel rail reduces friction loss and is able to carry greater loads with less maintenance, this is a fundamental advantage over cars, trucks and buses. When all factors are considered, there is no way road and air are more enegy efficient than rail.

Gord
 
*snip stuff*

For every decade of nuclear power use we're creating another decade's worth of waste transportation to wherever we finally put all this stuff. Probably not Yucca Mountain however, as even if that site was approved tomorrow it's not nearly big enough to hold all the nuclear waste we've already created up until this point.
Each reactor unit at Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant (CCNPP) in Maryland when originally brought into operation in 1974, used 93,480 kilograms of UO2; enriched to about 2.05% to 2.99%.

The average efficiency of this initial fuel loading was 12,000 megawatt-days per tonne (MWd/te).

Thus, if only 65% of that fuel loading was used up (you can't burn 100% of the uranium in a reactor due to critical mass issues), that loading would produce 729,144 megawatt-days of power, while producing about 100 tonnes of radio-active waste, which would take up 32.53 m3 of volume (dimension of reactor core).

Meanwhile, to produce this much power from a 35% efficient coal power plant (6.15 MWh/ton theoretical maximum * 0.35 = 2.15 MWh/ton); you would need 339,136 tonnes of coal.

To put all this in some 'scope of scale' terms that railroaders could understand:

DODX_reactor_car_SpentCores_.jpg


Department of Defense Railcar for transporting spent reactors

vs

3,169 Hybrid Gon (Specs) railcars which if placed end to end would stretch over 30 miles.

Let's not get into the coal ash problem...
 
I see a simple way to go high speed on the longer distance trains (at least 125) is to make all of the cars in the Superliners single level. They would use less Diesel because they are a lot lighter. They could also be able to take the higher speeds. You also have to improve engines, tracks and signals to get these speeds. I think the worst years are ahead of us on this front especially if there is a change in administrations this year. I could easily see more high speed rail or us down to the Northeast corridor by 2017 depending on this election.
 
I see a simple way to go high speed on the longer distance trains (at least 125) is to make all of the cars in the Superliners single level.
And how would you do that? Remember, Amtrak is (nearly) bankrupt.
How is a bankrupt company able to place an order for all these new engines and Acela Cars? In this economy, you would think this would be impossible to do.
 
I see a simple way to go high speed on the longer distance trains (at least 125) is to make all of the cars in the Superliners single level.
And how would you do that? Remember, Amtrak is (nearly) bankrupt.
How is a bankrupt company able to place an order for all these new engines and Acela Cars? In this economy, you would think this would be impossible to do.
I don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't out of Amtrak's operating budget.

So theoretically, yes it is possible to convert all the Superliners to single-level, but why would Amtrak waste the capital budget on that?
 
So theoretically, yes it is possible to convert all the Superliners to single-level, but why would Amtrak waste the capital budget on that?
Their design is a diesel guzzler. As the price of diesel (the exclusive fuel outside of NEC for Amtrak) rises, It makes sense to advance car design that reduces fuel. Much like the advances in Airplane designs over the last decade to try reduce fuel for airlines.
 
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If that was an issue, they wouldn't have ordered them as bi-level, especially considering that they were ordered a few years after the 1970s oil crisis.

Besides, they fit more people than the same number of single-levels.
 
I'm not all that convinced that Superliners cause 'fuel-guzzle' to a remarkable degree over Viewliners/Amfleets simply because of the space capacity differences between the cars. Since we are discussing LD services for comparison, just look at the two car types against each other for coach.

Superliner Coach: 74 passenger seats; 4 bathrooms; 1 changing room. Car weight: 148,000 lbs. Speed rating: 110mph

Amfleet II Coach: 59 passenger seats; 2 bathrooms; 0 changing rooms Car weight: 116,000 lbs. Speed rating: 125mph

So, for 32,000 extra pounds of weight (roughly equivalent to one fire engine for comparison; featherweight for a train) you get 15 more paying passenger slots per car, two more restrooms for passenger comfort, a changing room for passenger comfort, and only loose 15mph for top speed capability. Not to mention, a much larger capacity for on-board potable water storage and sewage retention, better reliability in cold-weather environments, a central vestibule that is much more separated from passengers (added comfort) as well as better-suited for mobility-impaired people (no big steps for low-level station stops.) The WOW factor of a two-level train for first-time riders helps matters too.

The economics of single-level vs. two-level sleepers are a no-brainier. The Superliners win every single time because they can haul up to 44 passengers instead of 30.

So, changing a train like the California Zephyr from Superliner to Viewliner/Amfleet without loosing any capacity, you would actually increase the weight of the train by having to add more cars. And in doing so, you would make the train more uncomfortable to passengers by reducing the number of available restrooms, eliminating the changing rooms, reducing food service capacity, make the train longer, etc.

Superliner-style cars just make sense in the long run, and I believe if it were not for the clearance issues in New England, Amtrak would be a 100% Superliner-equipped service today, minus the Talgo's and Acela.
 
I'm not all that convinced that Superliners cause 'fuel-guzzle' to a remarkable degree over Viewliners/Amfleets simply because of the space capacity differences between the cars. Since we are discussing LD services for comparison, just look at the two car types against each other for coach.

Superliner Coach: 74 passenger seats; 4 bathrooms; 1 changing room. Car weight: 148,000 lbs. Speed rating: 110mph

Amfleet II Coach: 59 passenger seats; 2 bathrooms; 0 changing rooms Car weight: 116,000 lbs. Speed rating: 125mph

So, for 32,000 extra pounds of weight (roughly equivalent to one fire engine for comparison; featherweight for a train) you get 15 more paying passenger slots per car, two more restrooms for passenger comfort, a changing room for passenger comfort, and only loose 15mph for top speed capability. Not to mention, a much larger capacity for on-board potable water storage and sewage retention, better reliability in cold-weather environments, a central vestibule that is much more separated from passengers (added comfort) as well as better-suited for mobility-impaired people (no big steps for low-level station stops.) The WOW factor of a two-level train for first-time riders helps matters too.

The economics of single-level vs. two-level sleepers are a no-brainier. The Superliners win every single time because they can haul up to 44 passengers instead of 30.

So, changing a train like the California Zephyr from Superliner to Viewliner/Amfleet without loosing any capacity, you would actually increase the weight of the train by having to add more cars. And in doing so, you would make the train more uncomfortable to passengers by reducing the number of available restrooms, eliminating the changing rooms, reducing food service capacity, make the train longer, etc.

Superliner-style cars just make sense in the long run, and I believe if it were not for the clearance issues in New England, Amtrak would be a 100% Superliner-equipped service today, minus the Talgo's and Acela.
I've only traveled along the east coast and have never experienced western long distance trains. More people riding can have just as important impact on reducing the carbon footprint than speed that. Those are points I didn't realize were important to this discussion. It isn't all about speed, but the ability to bring as good of an experience to people as possible.
 
I'm not all that convinced that Superliners cause 'fuel-guzzle' to a remarkable degree over Viewliners/Amfleets simply because of the space capacity differences between the cars. Since we are discussing LD services for comparison, just look at the two car types against each other for coach.

Superliner Coach: 74 passenger seats; 4 bathrooms; 1 changing room. Car weight: 148,000 lbs. Speed rating: 110mph

Amfleet II Coach: 59 passenger seats; 2 bathrooms; 0 changing rooms Car weight: 116,000 lbs. Speed rating: 125mph

So, for 32,000 extra pounds of weight (roughly equivalent to one fire engine for comparison; featherweight for a train) you get 15 more paying passenger slots per car, two more restrooms for passenger comfort, a changing room for passenger comfort, and only loose 15mph for top speed capability. Not to mention, a much larger capacity for on-board potable water storage and sewage retention, better reliability in cold-weather environments, a central vestibule that is much more separated from passengers (added comfort) as well as better-suited for mobility-impaired people (no big steps for low-level station stops.) The WOW factor of a two-level train for first-time riders helps matters too.

The economics of single-level vs. two-level sleepers are a no-brainier. The Superliners win every single time because they can haul up to 44 passengers instead of 30.

So, changing a train like the California Zephyr from Superliner to Viewliner/Amfleet without loosing any capacity, you would actually increase the weight of the train by having to add more cars. And in doing so, you would make the train more uncomfortable to passengers by reducing the number of available restrooms, eliminating the changing rooms, reducing food service capacity, make the train longer, etc.

Superliner-style cars just make sense in the long run, and I believe if it were not for the clearance issues in New England, Amtrak would be a 100% Superliner-equipped service today, minus the Talgo's and Acela.
Great post. I especially like the wording of the WOW factor for first time riders. I remember it was the grand presence of the superliner train that stuck with me the most as a young kid and I've been a fan ever since. The single level cars just don't have the same effect on me. To this day I am still "WOWed" by the old superliners. I probably wouldn't be half the railfan I am today without them.
 
Three thoughts on Superliners:

1) I know that production costs on Superliners tend to be about 40-60% higher than Viewliners (the per-passenger numbers are about the same); what does maintenance run on the two? Does anybody know?

2) Could Superliners, if there was track to support it, be reworked or redesigned going forward for 125 MPH rating?

3) Viewliner/Amfleet conversions of a few trains would probably work...but these tend to be the shorter ones (namely, the Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle, and CONO); the Zephyr, Builder, and a few others are just too long on a regular basis.

Also, if clearances weren't an issue, Amtrak would probably be at least looking at bilevel Acela IIs (the full sets, not the 40 supplementary cars), while the Talgos might well have been specced out for bilevel designs when the order was placed. We would probably still have a moderate pile of Amtubes running around (high level platforms and all), but there would be a transition underway there, and some platforms would probably be getting ripped up to allow low-level boarding on a few tracks in the NEC.
 
Some of the most heavily used bilevel high speed trains would fit within the loading gauge of NEC today. For example, TGV Duplexes are well within the NEC loading gauge, though there may be a slight problem with platform height if they are taken as is.

But the real fact of the matter is that since train lengths on the NEC are so much shorter than the max possible that bi-level is not really necessary as yet, though maybe sometime in the future. Simpler things like the ability to operate two Acela sets in tandem, maxing up Regionals to 12 or 14 cars, and increasing train frequencies, may be more cost effective for now, and possibly for decades to come.

BTW, if you look at world passenger train lengths the except for the Auto Train, all other Amtrak trains are downright puny in terms of length. So that is not a real argument for not converting to single level.

However, given that we have the Superliners and given that going forward we have a standard design for the next gen, and no reason otherwise not to use them on lines with the clearance, I don;t see why anyone would want to convert them.

Now then, prognosticating about LD trains, I suspect the following are likely to happen within the next 5 or so years:

1. Pennsy run through section on the Cap, possibly the number of run through cars growing after inauguration if it catches on.

2. Extension of the Palmetto at least to JAX.

3. Section of at least one Silver service going via the FEC JAX - MIA.

4. Southwest Chief via the Transcon, abandoning Raton Pass Route.

5. Oakland - LAX day train, unless California steps up to provide facility at 4th and Townsend to handle such a train, in which case San Fran to LAX. An example of corridors stitched together to create an LD -ish train.

Less likely but possible:

1. Daily Cardinal - this could happen if Virginia specifically accelerates passing siding work on the BBRR.

2. Daily Sunset Limited - negotiations need to start instead of the parties sitting at their respective corners just glaring at each other.

3. Boston and New York sections of the LSL running as separate trains, perhaps with some NY State and Massachusetts financial support.

4. Resurrected Montrealer, only if both Vermont and Quebec step upto it.

OK, that's my modest list.
 
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On a note related to the SWC reroute over the transcon, I read on TRAINS' website that the commissioners of Garden City Kansas have allocated $20,000.00 for lobbying in an effort to keep the SWC over Raton Pass. Lamar and La Junta CO have passed resolutions to keep the SWC where it is. Sounds like these towns are taking a similar course of action that the towns in ND took over the Empire Builder's potential reroute away from Devil's Lake. I would think the cost of keeping the SWC where it is would be greater than the cost of keeping the EB where it is, and whether the towns on the SWC route are as successful obviously remains to be seen.

One thing I thought was interesting, and worth noting, is a quote from Garden City manager Matt Allan:

Garden City manager Matt Allen said the remote cities of southwestern Kansas benefit from the daily Chicago-Los Angeles passenger train. “We’re fans of passenger rail,” he said. “The communities west of Newton [Kan.], we have the highest levels of ridership.”
IMHO it is great to see support for Amtrak in a "Red" state like Kansas. Maybe this is obvious, but the benefits to the communities it serves is a major reason why Amtrak has weathered so many threats to its existance.

Also from the article:

Marc Magliari, an Amtrak spokesman, said support from cities like Garden city is helpful as the passenger railroad continues its discussions with BNSF and the impacted states.
 
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