Texas Eagle Consist

[AlanB]

#21 and #421 pax are put in the same sleeper.

That cannot happen. In fact the entire reason that there is trains 21 & 421, as well as similar situations with the Builder and the LSL, is that ARROW cannot deal with passengers properly when the train splits/combines if they don't use seperate numbers. If the cars that run through to LA were called train #21, instead of #421, then ARROW would sell any passenger any seat or room on the entire train to LA, even though the entire train doesn't go to LA.

But if Amtrak tells ARROW that a car is for train #21, then ARROW will not sell any destination west of SAS in that car. You must have a ticket for train #421 to board that through car to LA. Now ARROW would still sell someone a ticket in that car for train #421 from say Chicago to Texarkanna, if they're willing to pay the premium, but that ticket will read train #421 and not train #21.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I believe Alan just explained the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle-- using Amtrak... :blink:

 

[Bob Dylan]

#21 and #421 pax are put in the same sleeper.

That cannot happen. In fact the entire reason that there is trains 21 & 421, as well as similar situations with the Builder and the LSL, is that ARROW cannot deal with passengers properly when the train splits/combines if they don't use seperate numbers. If the cars that run through to LA were called train #21, instead of #421, then ARROW would sell any passenger any seat or room on the entire train to LA, even though the entire train doesn't go to LA.

But if Amtrak tells ARROW that a car is for train #21, then ARROW will not sell any destination west of SAS in that car. You must have a ticket for train #421 to board that through car to LA. Now ARROW would still sell someone a ticket in that car for train #421 from say Chicago to Texarkanna, if they're willing to pay the premium, but that ticket will read train #421 and not train #21.

Alan is correct here! As much as you know about the Eagles Chris there are a sleeper and coach just for train #421 from CHI-SAS the three times a week it runs. I just rode those trains four times in the past month and it was the same everytime! Im not sure about the extra sleeper being kept in SAS, Ive never seen one the many times Ive been in SAS, there is lots of switching back and forth there @ night as other posters have said and it does ternd to get busy when the trains are there @ the same time! :blink:

 

[BlakeTyner]

Alan is correct here! As much as you know about the Eagles Chris there are a sleeper and coach just for train #421 from CHI-SAS the three times a week it runs. I just rode those trains four times in the past month and it was the same everytime! Im not sure about the extra sleeper being kept in SAS, Ive never seen one the many times Ive been in SAS, there is lots of switching back and forth there @ night as other posters have said and it does ternd to get busy when the trains are there @ the same time! :blink:

Yes, there have to be a couple of extra sleepers/coaches running around somewhere.

If train 21 always had 1 transition dorm (that stays with the TE consist) and 1 sleeper, then on the days 421 runs it would lose that standard sleeper and have to depart for Chicago the next morning with nothing but a transition--meaning no handicapped bedroom, family bedroom, or regular bedrooms on the train at all.

So, either the Eagle carries its transition dorm and TWO regular sleepers on 421 days, or it carries its transition dorm and one sleeper, cutting that one out for the Sunset and picking up an extra from SAS for 22's departure the next morning. I puzzled that out on paper in the office today, and with the tri-weekly scheduling, the swaps with the Sunset don't quite add up perfectly.

That would keep the consist the same--except that, at some point, SAS will need the 'extra' sleeper delivered back...which would be an extra car on the Eagle, no?

 

[had8ley]

Alan is correct here! As much as you know about the Eagles Chris there are a sleeper and coach just for train #421 from CHI-SAS the three times a week it runs. I just rode those trains four times in the past month and it was the same everytime! Im not sure about the extra sleeper being kept in SAS, Ive never seen one the many times Ive been in SAS, there is lots of switching back and forth there @ night as other posters have said and it does ternd to get busy when the trains are there @ the same time! :blink:

Yes, there have to be a couple of extra sleepers/coaches running around somewhere.

If train 21 always had 1 transition dorm (that stays with the TE consist) and 1 sleeper, then on the days 421 runs it would lose that standard sleeper and have to depart for Chicago the next morning with nothing but a transition--meaning no handicapped bedroom, family bedroom, or regular bedrooms on the train at all.

So, either the Eagle carries its transition dorm and TWO regular sleepers on 421 days, or it carries its transition dorm and one sleeper, cutting that one out for the Sunset and picking up an extra from SAS for 22's departure the next morning. I puzzled that out on paper in the office today, and with the tri-weekly scheduling, the swaps with the Sunset don't quite add up perfectly.

That would keep the consist the same--except that, at some point, SAS will need the 'extra' sleeper delivered back...which would be an extra car on the Eagle, no?

Yes, I've often wondered where this "phantom" sleeper comes from to protect the northbound #22. I know it doesn't come on the Sunset from either direction and haven't seen any extras on the southbound Eagle. Maybe Jim Hudson could fill in the missing parts of this puzzle?

 

[BlakeTyner]

Yes, I've often wondered where this "phantom" sleeper comes from to protect the northbound #22. I know it doesn't come on the Sunset from either direction and haven't seen any extras on the southbound Eagle. Maybe Jim Hudson could fill in the missing parts of this puzzle?

21 comes through here at about the time I'm getting on the road for work, so I don't see it all that often--I've been looking at youtube videos of the train to try to determine an answer to this, but so far I have no smoking gun. Lots of the youtube clips are from north of St. Louis, which throws things off a bit because of the extra coach between CHI and STL.

If Jim (or anyone else) doesn't have the answer, I can probably find out in a couple of weeks when I see Griff.

 

[saxman]

I'm still not convinced there's an extra sleeper on #421 days. I see that train on a weekly basis, and in fact riding on it today. I know a few years ago, they use to carry an extra 421 sleeper, but not anymore. I always help passengers get to the right car and on 421 days they always put the California folks in the last car which is a coach. Even the passengers with sleepers with 421 printed on their tickets are actually in the 2120 sleeper. I'm going to ask today, how Arrow goes about booking 421 and 21 pax in a sleeper. I'm curious.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm still not convinced there's an extra sleeper on #421 days. I see that train on a weekly basis, and in fact riding on it today. I know a few years ago, they use to carry an extra 421 sleeper, but not anymore. I always help passengers get to the right car and on 421 days they always put the California folks in the last car which is a coach. Even the passengers with sleepers with 421 printed on their tickets are actually in the 2120 sleeper. I'm going to ask today, how Arrow goes about booking 421 and 21 pax in a sleeper. I'm curious.

Thanks Chris, Ill be the first to say that Im wrong since things change,sometimes daily, @ Amtrak! This brings back up the phantom sleeper in SAS,

well all appreciate clarification on this soon as you can get us the offcial word, when I was on #421 2 weeks ago there WERE two sleepers in addition to

the trans dorm so perhaps this is what made me so certain they ran 2 sleepers on #421/#422 days! Guess the newbies think were nuts down here since we ride/know these trains so well and dont have any definite answer yet! (no comments from RI are needed, my apartment is bigger than that place! :lol: )

 

[BlakeTyner]

I'm still not convinced there's an extra sleeper on #421 days. I see that train on a weekly basis, and in fact riding on it today. I know a few years ago, they use to carry an extra 421 sleeper, but not anymore. I always help passengers get to the right car and on 421 days they always put the California folks in the last car which is a coach. Even the passengers with sleepers with 421 printed on their tickets are actually in the 2120 sleeper. I'm going to ask today, how Arrow goes about booking 421 and 21 pax in a sleeper. I'm curious.

Looks like this is confirmed.

This video:

of the Eagle on Friday the 13th this month, shows its standard consist (the train does have a Diet Pepsi -8 and 5 private cars) of trans-dorm, sleeper, CCC, SSL, and 3 coaches. Being that this is train 21 on a Friday, it's a 421 day and there's no extra sleeper or coach.
That still leaves the question of the phantom sleeper/coach in SAS.

~Blake

 

[had8ley]

Come on Traveler; just where are you stashing #22's phantom sleeper ???

 

[BlakeTyner]

Ok, I've been drawing diagrams for the past hour and I think I've got it.

This gets a bit convoluted, but hopefully it's right. Bear with me, lol.

This all occurs in San Antonio.

Monday: 22 leaves in the morning with standard equipment (the standard train 21 that arrived in SAS the night before.)

21 arrives in the evening with the 421 cars. The Sunset arrives in the evening with its 422 cars--an even trade.

Tuesday: 22/422 leaves in the morning with the same consist as it arrived with, except that it traded one sleeper and one coach with the Sunset.

21 arrives in the evening with standard equipment.

Wednesday: 22 leaves in the morning with the standard consist that arrived as 21 on Tuesday night.

21/421 arrives in the evening, giving the 421 coach and sleeper to the Sunset.

Thursday: 22 leaves in the morning with a protect coach and sleeper (where that comes from you'll soon see.)

21 arrives in the evening with a standard consist. Now is where the phantom sleeper/coach come in. The Sunset Limited ALSO arrives Thursday night. So on this night, the Texas Eagle drops the sleeper and coach it came in with--those become protect equipment--and adds on the sleeper and coach from the Sunset.

Friday: 22/422 leaves in the morning--same consist as always because it dropped a coach and sleeper in SAS and picked up the coach and sleeper from the Sunset.

21/421 arrives in the evening, giving the 421 coach and sleeper to the Sunset.

Saturday: 22 departs with the protect equipment from Thursday night.

21 arrives in the evening with a standard consist, but again, the Sunset ALSO arrives this evening with 422 cars, so 21 drops its sleeper and coach, which become the protect equipment for next Thursday morning's 22.

Sunday: 22/422 departs in the morning--same consist as always because of the dropping of the protect equipment and the pickup of 421 cars.

21 arrives in the evening with a standard consist, which departs the next morning as 22--and the cycle begins again at the top.

Think I got it?

~Blake

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm still not convinced there's an extra sleeper on #421 days. I see that train on a weekly basis, and in fact riding on it today. I know a few years ago, they use to carry an extra 421 sleeper, but not anymore. I always help passengers get to the right car and on 421 days they always put the California folks in the last car which is a coach. Even the passengers with sleepers with 421 printed on their tickets are actually in the 2120 sleeper. I'm going to ask today, how Arrow goes about booking 421 and 21 pax in a sleeper. I'm curious.

Looks like this is confirmed.

This video:

Good video, thanks Blake! As they said in "Alice in Wonderland" it gets curiouser and curiouser! Im beginning to think there must be an extra sleeper in SAS as other posters have mentioned! Chris is supposed to get the official word so we'll see! Perhaps in the winter when it slows up the Western trains dont have to run so many sleepers so the poor Eagle can have an extra sleeper so Amtrak can run the train with just one engine most days without having to add power to haul extra cars! The third "STL" coach has usually been hauled empty after STL everytime Ive ridden this year but perhaps as Chris said they bnow load the #1/#421 coach pax in that coach in DAL and FTW? I had no idea this would be so interesting to those not from Texas since we have so few trains down this way! Thanks for the feedback/input, the mystery will be solved with Inspector X on the job! :lol:

 

[BlakeTyner]

Good video, thanks Blake! As they said in "Alice and Wonderland" it gets curiouser and curiouser! Im beginning to think there must be an extra sleeper in SAS as other posters have mentioned! Chris is supposed to get the official word so we'll see! Perhaps in the winter when it slows up the Western trains dont have to run so many sleepers so the poor Eagle can have an extra sleeper so Amtrak can run the train with just one engine most days without having to add power to haul extra cars! The third "STL" coach has usually been hauled empty after STL everytime Ive ridden this year but perhaps as Chris said they bnow load the #1/#421 coach pax in that coach in DAL and FTW? I had no idea this would be so interesting to those not from Texas since we have so few trains down this way! Thanks for the feedback/input, the mystery will be solved with Inspector X on the job! :lol:

Jim--we had a simulpost, but I think I got it all figured out -- check out my last post and see if you agree.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good video, thanks Blake! As they said in "Alice and Wonderland" it gets curiouser and curiouser! Im beginning to think there must be an extra sleeper in SAS as other posters have mentioned! Chris is supposed to get the official word so we'll see! Perhaps in the winter when it slows up the Western trains dont have to run so many sleepers so the poor Eagle can have an extra sleeper so Amtrak can run the train with just one engine most days without having to add power to haul extra cars! The third "STL" coach has usually been hauled empty after STL everytime Ive ridden this year but perhaps as Chris said they bnow load the #1/#421 coach pax in that coach in DAL and FTW? I had no idea this would be so interesting to those not from Texas since we have so few trains down this way! Thanks for the feedback/input, the mystery will be solved with Inspector X on the job! :lol:

Jim--we had a simulpost, but I think I got it all figured out -- check out my last post and see if you agree.

Looks good Blake, this works and actually makes sense which is sorta rare when it comes to Amtrak! :lol: Must be the folks down here on the Eagle board actually get listened too which includes Saxman and soon you I hope? Thanks for the post, its not often members can trump Alan B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I was in FTW one time when the northbound 22 had to dump a bad ordered Sleeper (AC Trouble); so I imagine that really throws a monkey wrench into the formula.

 

[RandyJay]

Yep, it's a real shell game in SAS, especially since the 421/422 sleeper is mid-consist on 21/22. Blake I do believe you have it right. The protect sleeper (and/or coach) are typically stored east of the station a ways and not likely too visible for those arriving or departing on 21/22.

Just to confirm the earlier consist reports, I just came off of 21/421 (CHI-SAS) and indeed the lone sleeper was the 21 and 421 sleeper combined (car 2130). I was on a GR ticket for train 421; talked a while with the attendant and she always refered to it as the "LA car". Note that the attendant for the "421" car turns in SAS back to CHI; the 421 pax wake up to a new attendant from the LA crew base. Same thing for the 422 attendant from LA.

Jim, we'll have to get together one of these days - you're just up the road!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yep, it's a real shell game in SAS, especially since the 421/422 sleeper is mid-consist on 21/22. Blake I do believe you have it right. The protect sleeper (and/or coach) are typically stored east of the station a ways and not likely too visible for those arriving or departing on 21/22.
Just to confirm the earlier consist reports, I just came off of 21/421 (CHI-SAS) and indeed the lone sleeper was the 21 and 421 sleeper combined (car 2130). I was on a GR ticket for train 421; talked a while with the attendant and she always refered to it as the "LA car". Note that the attendant for the "421" car turns in SAS back to CHI; the 421 pax wake up to a new attendant from the LA crew base. Same thing for the 422 attendant from LA.

Jim, we'll have to get together one of these days - you're just up the road!

Thanks for the info Randy! No wonder we couldnt see the "exta"coach/sleeper in SAS. its always dark there and as Ive said the switching seems to go on most of the night when both trains are there, sometimes even three @ once when they are not OT. You must live around Centex if Im just up the road,

that would be great! You can always PM me and well work something out, I am retired now but noit dead yet! :lol:

 

[AlanB]

Looks good Blake, this works and actually makes sense which is sorta rare when it comes to Amtrak! :lol: Must be the folks down here on the Eagle board actually get listened too which includes Saxman and soon you I hope? Thanks for the post, its not often members can trump Alan B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, I never ventured an opinion on how many sleepers were on the train or whether or not there was a phantom sleeper. I simply said that it's not possible for one sleeper to be both the Train #21 sleeper and the #421 sleeper on the same day. And I stand by that. On days that they run through cars with the Sunset and assuming that there is only 1 full sleeper in the consist, I continue to believe that no one boarding that car is doing so with a ticket for Train #21. Everyone must have a ticket for train #421, even if they aren't traveling west of SAS. Only the Trans/Dorm rooms could be ticketed as Train #21.

On days with no through cars, and again assuming only 1 full sleeper, then it would be sold as train #21.

 

[RandyJay]

Alan - good point. On my recent ride on 21/421 there were folks in the revenue rooms in the dorm; quite likely they were ticketed as train 21 pax. I was in the full sleeper and ticketed as 421 even though my res was only for SAS (and I never asked for 421), so I'm betting you're exactly right. So that means the number of true train 21 roomettes is much less on the 421 days, and no bedrooms or H rooms are to be had at all on 21 (Assuming just the one full sleeper of course). Now I'm curious if the reservation system penalizes you pricewise if all you really wanted was 21, but instead were "forced" to go on 421.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Alan - good point. On my recent ride on 21/421 there were folks in the revenue rooms in the dorm; quite likely they were ticketed as train 21 pax. I was in the full sleeper and ticketed as 421 even though my res was only for SAS (and I never asked for 421), so I'm betting you're exactly right. So that means the number of true train 21 roomettes is much less on the 421 days, and no bedrooms or H rooms are to be had at all on 21 (Assuming just the one full sleeper of course). Now I'm curious if the reservation system penalizes you pricewise if all you really wanted was 21, but instead were "forced" to go on 421.

Excellent question Randy! As with all things, it depends! :lol: The fares on this train dont always make sense, Ive seen them the same, #21 cheaper than #421 and vice versa but guessing about only having one sleeper I bet they do fill the trans dorm with #21 pax first, and you are correct about the H and family rooms, its starting to sound like the Cardinal which as we all know is hard to get bedrooms and the high bucket is usually the norm! Excellent for a project to do test bookings on amtrak.com for various dates, #21/#421 and 22 /#422 days and just the regular #21/#22 days!

And no offense to Alan who I was just teasing a bit, hes always spot on with his info, doubt if Ill ever see him give an incorrect answer here!

 

[AlanB]

And no offense to Alan who I was just teasing a bit, hes always spot on with his info, doubt if Ill ever see him give an incorrect answer here!

No, there have been times I've been wrong on here. You may have to dig very hard to find them, but there have indeed been things that I've gotten wrong. And in fact that's why I didn't venture an opinion on how many cars are or are not on the Eagle, becuase I don't know for sure. But I am sure that they can't "split" a sleeper down the middle so to speak and assign it to both train #21 & #421 at the same time on the same day.

If there are sleeper tickets being sold with train #21 on a day that there are through cars to the Sunset, then either those tickets are for the Trans/Dorm or Amtrak is adding a second full sleeper.

 

[saxman]

!!!Texas Eagle Consist Update!!!

Alright, I just got off a sold out Texas Eagle tonight in Austin coming from Dallas. Consist was Engine, Dorm, Sleeper, CCC, Coach, Coach, LAX Coach. I wasn't able to ask an agent today, but I did look at a load manifest of pax getting on in Dallas. All those booked in a sleeper were indeed booked as #421 in the 2130 car, even though some were getting off in AUS or SAS. No one getting on the train in Dallas was boarding the Trans Dorm, so I couldn't really verify if those in the Dorm were booked as #21, but I assume they were. In checking Amtrak.com, you can indeed book a sleeper on either 21 or 421. If you pick 21, you'll automatically be in the dorm car. I'll have to confirm this next time I get to see a manifest though.

Randy did a good job on figuring out how they maneuver those cars in SAS. I sat for about 10 minutes trying to figure it out, and it almost made my head spin and I gave up. I guess I had never thought about how things went down there. I need to take a trip to SAS soon and this time stay awake for the switching! ha.

I suppose northbound, the same thing happens. The full sleeper is only 422, and the dorm is 22. In fact riding to the Gathering I left Dallas on a Sunday which is a 422 day. But my ticket had 22 printed on it and I was in the Trans Dorm. Originally I was leaving on a Monday, a non 422 day, and I was ticketed on 22 in the full sleeper.

 

[henryj]

All I can say is good job everyone. I am in Houston so I don't get to see the Eagle which is why I was curious as to how it works. I think we now have the answer thanks to you guys. It probably changes my count of the number of cars in the Sunset Eagle pool, but not significantly. Thanks.

 

[BlakeTyner]

All I can say is good job everyone. I am in Houston so I don't get to see the Eagle which is why I was curious as to how it works. I think we now have the answer thanks to you guys. It probably changes my count of the number of cars in the Sunset Eagle pool, but not significantly. Thanks.

The other thing is...if daily CHI-LAX service is initiated in April--which I actually think will happen--the pool will change again. The scenario wherein the Eagle has daily LAX service via the Sunset connection in SAS, combined with a coach-only/CCC day train betwen SAS and NOL, seems likely to happen in my mind. I have no confirming evidence from Amtrak, so it's just rumor at this point, but I think there's enough smoke about this to maybe have some fire.

~Blake

 

[Bob Dylan]

!!!Texas Eagle Consist Update!!!
Alright, I just got off a sold out Texas Eagle tonight in Austin coming from Dallas. Consist was Engine, Dorm, Sleeper, CCC, Coach, Coach, LAX Coach. I wasn't able to ask an agent today, but I did look at a load manifest of pax getting on in Dallas. All those booked in a sleeper were indeed booked as #421 in the 2130 car, even though some were getting off in AUS or SAS. No one getting on the train in Dallas was boarding the Trans Dorm, so I couldn't really verify if those in the Dorm were booked as #21, but I assume they were. In checking Amtrak.com, you can indeed book a sleeper on either 21 or 421. If you pick 21, you'll automatically be in the dorm car. I'll have to confirm this next time I get to see a manifest though.

Randy did a good job on figuring out how they maneuver those cars in SAS. I sat for about 10 minutes trying to figure it out, and it almost made my head spin and I gave up. I guess I had never thought about how things went down there. I need to take a trip to SAS soon and this time stay awake for the switching! ha.

I suppose northbound, the same thing happens. The full sleeper is only 422, and the dorm is 22. In fact riding to the Gathering I left Dallas on a Sunday which is a 422 day. But my ticket had 22 printed on it and I was in the Trans Dorm. Originally I was leaving on a Monday, a non 422 day, and I was ticketed on 22 in the full sleeper.

Well that settles it Chris, thanks for the info, also good input from the others! Have they taken the Sightseer off again or is that just one of those days?

You tend to wonder this time of year as the trains get shorter, wonder where they keep the spares, in CHI?