Sunset Limited / Texas Eagle PRIIA §210 FY10

[Eric S]

I voted no. IMHO, they should have a full service diner on this route. I guest I should have said luke warm because the schedule is improved from Chicago to LA.

Which route? The proposal involves a full service diner on the CHI-SAS-LAX Texas Eagle. It is true, though, that it does not involve a full service diner on the SAS-NOL Sunset Limited stub.

 

[henryj]

I voted no. IMHO, they should have a full service diner on this route. I guest I should have said luke warm because the schedule is improved from Chicago to LA.

Which route? The proposal involves a full service diner on the CHI-SAS-LAX Texas Eagle.

Not exactly, the plan calls for 9 Diner Lounges, or CCC's to support the service. That's two for the stub trains and seven for the Eagle/Sunset. They may serve the full Diner menu on the Eagle/Sunset, but the cars are CCC's. The four Diners currently serving the Sunset Ltd route are to be transferred to the Capitol Limited.

 

[Eric S]

I voted no. IMHO, they should have a full service diner on this route. I guest I should have said luke warm because the schedule is improved from Chicago to LA.

Which route? The proposal involves a full service diner on the CHI-SAS-LAX Texas Eagle.

Not exactly, the plan calls for 9 Diner Lounges, or CCC's to support the service. That's two for the stub trains and seven for the Eagle/Sunset. They may serve the full Diner menu on the Eagle/Sunset, but the cars are CCC's. The four Diners currently serving the Sunset Ltd route are to be transferred to the Capitol Limited.

Ah, you're right.

 

[George Harris]

When the Los Angeles-Chicago train is ready to depart at 7:40

AM (after a 1,500-mile inspection), it follows the same route the northbound Texas Eagle uses

today. It shoves west from station track # 3 to Del Rio Main Track # 1 and back to Tower 112.

Then when it is clear of the Austin Subdivision Track 2 switch at Tower 112, the train begins to

travel railroad north on the Austin Subdivision Track 2.

When did 22 depart north by backing out of San Antonio? Its already facing north, it used to depart heading north,when did it change?

There is no direct connection between either of the tracks that go north out of San Antonio and the east-west line on which the Amtrak Station is located that permits the Texas Eagle to move directly into and out of the Amtrak San Antonio station.

A little history:

(In these following descriptions I am using east and west or north and south based on railroad east and west or north and south. The ex-SP I am calling east-west in orientation. In reality, the SP makes two 90 degree turns so that the compass orientation of the line through the station is north-south, with the north end of the station described as “east.”)

The east-west track is the former Southern Pacific line, and the station is at/adjacent to the Southern Pacific station. The SP station is on the east side of downtown.

There were and are two lines going generally north out of San Antonio. These lines come together about 50 miles north of San Antonio.

The former Missouri Pacific main came in from the north and northeast and was the route of the original Texas Eagle, to St. Louis which, by the way did not go through Dallas. The MoPac had a station on the west side of downtown. This station no longer exists. This track crosses the ex-SP line at and continues south to Laredo.

The former Missouri Kansas Texas main came in from the northeast and was the route of the Texas Special, to St. Louis which did not go through Dallas. The MKT also had their own station. It was a stub end station, located somewhat south of downtown in between the other two stations. This station no longer exists.

The ex-Missouri Pacific and ex-Missouri Kansas Texas both went through Austin, partly each on their own track and partly with MKT trackage rights on the MoPac. The each also had their own station in Austin.

These lines are now both in the Union Pacific house. They now are both listed in the Up employee timetable as part of the Austin Subdivision. The track designated as track 1 of this subdivision is the ex-Missouri Pacific main. The track designated as track 2 of this subdivision is the ex-Missouri Kansas Texas main. These lines come together about 50 miles north of San Antonio.

The ex-SP main crosses over the ex-MKT track (now called track 2 of the UP Austin Subdivision) approximately 2 miles east of the Amtrak station. This is not a grade crossing. The ex-SP is above the ex-MKT. There is not connection at this location. Looking at an aerial photo, there appears to have been one in the past.

The junction between these two lines is at Tower 112, which is 1.7 miles west of the SP station.

The ex-MKT turns out of the SP at tower 112 toward the south side. It heads compass east for about 3 miles, then turns north, crossing under the SP about 5 miles from tower 112.

The ex-SP main crosses ex-MoPac at Tower 105, which is 1.7 miles beyond tower 112, placing it 3.4 miles beyond the Amtrak station. There is also a secondary track connecting these two lines between tower 112 and a point called Apache Junction. This distance between these points is 1.6 miles. Apache Junction is 0.5 miles north of tower 105.

The normal route of the southbound Texas Eagle into town is to come in on Track 1. Whether it goes to Tower 105 and then backs to the station or goes through Apache Junction on the connection to Tower 112 and pulls into the station, I do not know. However, if it goes through the connection, it will enter the station aimed east (compass north). Anyone who has ridden through cars from the Texas Eagle to the Sunset could answer that one. If they leave town on the Sunset facing backward from that of their trip south, then they went through the connection. If they back into the San Antonio station and then leave San Antonio aimed the same direction as the normal for their trip in, they went through Tower 105.

The normal direction for northbound trains out of San Antonio is by way of Track 2. For the northbound Texas Eagle to get on track 2, it will leave station backing up westbound on the ex-SP to Tower 112, then going forward on Track 2 is the normal route of the northbound Texas Eagle.

These junctions, slow tracks, and reversals are the reasons for the very slow Austin to San Antonio times for the TE in both directions.

 

[henryj]

There is no direct connection between either of the tracks that go north out of San Antonio and the east-west line on which the Amtrak Station is located that permits the Texas Eagle to move directly into and out of the Amtrak San Antonio station.

A little history:

There were and are two lines going generally north out of San Antonio. These lines come together about 50 miles north of San Antonio.

The former Missouri Pacific main came in from the north and northeast and was the route of the original Texas Eagle, to St. Louis which, by the way did not go through Dallas. The MoPac had a station on the west side of downtown. This station no longer exists. This track crosses the ex-SP line at and continues south to Laredo.

George, last time I was in San Antonio the MP station still existed. It was being used by Generations Credit Union and is at 123 N. Medina St. Has it recently been torn down? I can still see it on Google Earth. True, the MKT depot is long gone. The Texas Special however did go through Dallas. It split in Waco and sent a section through Fort Worth and one through Dallas. They recombined north of Dallas in Dennison. The MP Eagle San Antonio section however went north east through Hearne and hooked up with the Houston section at Palestine and the Dallas section in Longview.

Thanks for the long complicated description of the tracks in San Antonio. The roads are just as confusing. I believe the Eagle can come into SAS on either track so sometimes the thru cars go out backwards and some times they go out forward on the Sunset. I assume the same goes for the departure northward. When the cars end up going in reverse the crew just comes through and reverses the seats.

 

[jim hudson]

You are correct henry, it's still there as a Credit Union! IIRC it used to be the old T&P station before it was MoPac, i remember as a boy riding a steamer into that station on a school trip from San marcos to San Antonio and back! Many moons ago when the iron horses ran on steam, railroad men were rough and tough and the hobos rode the rails!

 

[jphjaxfl]

You are correct henry, it's still there as a Credit Union! IIRC it used to be the old T&P station before it was MoPac, i remember as a boy riding a steamer into that station on a school trip from San marcos to San Antonio and back! Many moons ago when the iron horses ran on steam, railroad men were rough and tough and the hobos rode the rails!

The former Missouri Pacific Depot in San Antonio was the International Great Northern Of Texas Depot before it was Missouri Pacific. The Station use to have the IGN name and logo above the door. The IGN was a MoPac subsidiary in Texas. The Texas & Pacific Railroad did not serve San Antonio. It ran from New Orleans to El Paso via Alexandria, Shreveport, Dallas, Ft. Worth and Big Springs. It had some branches in the Dallas and Shreveport areas.

 

[jimhudson]

Thanks for the correction, you are correct Sir!When one relies on their memory for things back in the day they tend to blur and become confused! I should have looked it up like our resident historian Bill H. I actually have been in that station both as a Rail Station and Credit Union,and also the old Katy and SP Sunset Stations. FWIW, also the old T&P Station(a beautiful building, worth a visit) in FTW which is now condos/business offices and the TRE Station to catch the train to DAL (afew blocks away is the Intermodel Station for Amtrak/Greyhound and Local busses., the DFW Metro area is becoming well served by transportation especially when they had so far to go to catch up after gearing everything to automobiles!)

 

[frequentflyer]

Thank you George. I know the Eagle has two routes into and out of San Antonio. In the morning the Eagle travels along I-35 heading northeast out of town. On the map it appears the tracks heading northeast out of the station connect to the those same tracks that parallel I-35,but as you stated,its a flyover with the connection taken out. So I take it the Eagle backs up under I-10, alongside of it and then pulls forward turning north on the west side of downtown. Wow.

 

[colobok]

I don't understand 2 things:

1) Why to arrive to LAX at 5am and then let passenger to sleep until 6:30am?

Wouldn't it be better to arrive to LAX at 6:30am and make departures 1,5 hrs later?

2) How are they going to implement this with $3 million payment to UP when UP demands much much more?

 

[George Harris]

You are correct henry, it's still there as a Credit Union! IIRC it used to be the old T&P station before it was MoPac, i remember as a boy riding a steamer into that station on a school trip from San marcos to San Antonio and back! Many moons ago when the iron horses ran on steam, railroad men were rough and tough and the hobos rode the rails!

The former Missouri Pacific Depot in San Antonio was the International Great Northern Of Texas Depot before it was Missouri Pacific. The Station use to have the IGN name and logo above the door. The IGN was a MoPac subsidiary in Texas. The Texas & Pacific Railroad did not serve San Antonio. It ran from New Orleans to El Paso via Alexandria, Shreveport, Dallas, Ft. Worth and Big Springs. It had some branches in the Dallas and Shreveport areas.

To all: I stand corrected. I know that when the Interamerican operated there was no station at the stop and that peple were basically dumped on the ground. A little research led me to: http://txtransportationmuseum.org/IGN.htm

Yes, The railroad was initially and for many years the international and Great Northern, although the extent of "northern" was Longview, Texas.

There you will find a thorough history of the building. The short version is that the building was there, but between the end of MoPac service and the Credit Union purchase the building went through what appeared to be death spiral. A few quotes from the referenced site:

The International & Great Northern Railroad began service to San Antonio on 1/1/1881. The company line began as the International Railway Company in 1870. It was planned to build to Arkansas near a point on the Red River and make connections to a railroad under construction from St. Louis. . . . The new company . . . reached Austin in 1876. The I & G.N. went into receivership on 4/1/1878 and came out on 11/1/1879. It went into receivership again in 1881 and permission from the creditors had to be sought in order for the additional 153.7 miles from San Antonio to Laredo could be completed, which they were on 12/31/1881.. . . .

The magnificent depot was completed in 1908. It is a most impressive structure, which was exactly the intent of its architect and the railroad It is made of compressed brick and stone and cost, even back then, some $142,000.00. Hardly chump change. The amazing thing is how often the railroad was foreclosed on and put into receivership, and yet the trains ran, buildings like this one were constructed, locomotives and rolling stock were bought, then replaced by larger, stronger, faster types.

. . . .

The magnificent depot was vacated by the Missouri Pacific around 1970 and lay desolate and abandoned for over fifteen years. This author has been able to see (and is now able to present here) some pictures of the building just before the San Antonio City Employees Federal Credit Union, now called Generations FCU, began a full restoration. The dome was in tatters, and most of the windows were smashed, including the large I & GN stained glass windows. Plaster had fallen from the walls, and interior column plinths were decayed and cracked. Detritus of every imaginable kind was strewn everywhere. Though the building was listed on the Register of Historic Places in 1975, that in itself failed to halt the decline in the buildings structural integrity. We really should appreciate the phenomenal bravery of the credit union. No one else dared to attempt to rescue this building, which was right on the edge of being too far gone to save.

. . . .

When AMTRAK took over passenger service, the Eagle did continue to stop at the depot, for a while. But, because the building was boarded up, you had to get your ticket at the old Southern Pacific depot, thirteen blocks to the east on Commerce Street. The Eagle name is still in use by AMTRAK.

. . . .

Missouri Pacific sold the building in 1972 to a private owner, who himself sold it three years later, having failed to find a use for it. A Jerusalem native, Efraim Abramoff, president of Orah Walls Construction bought it in 1975. Mr. Abramoff, only resident in San Antonio for six years at the time, bought the building out of a desire to see it maintained for the future, and also because it reminded him of buildings in his old home town. During the buildings abandoned years, some twenty different proposals were put forward. The first owner tried to make the place into a heritage center, with an upscale restaurant upstairs. Another very serious proposal was from the Veterans Administration, who considered using the place as an outpatient and benefit center. All those plans fell through, while time, theft and vandalism continued to take its toll on the structure.

. . . .

San Antonio City Employees Federal Credit Union spent a phenomenal amount to restore the building. They have maintained both its exterior and interior integrity and have created for themselves and their members a fantastic main office while helping to ensure the future of this outstanding building for future generations. Their efforts, made with the guidance of several civic organizations, particularly the very effective San Antonio Conservation Society, a group which has done so much to save the soul of San Antonio, attracted a lot of attention and won the credit union a good many awards. A wonderful building has been saved and put back into public service. Trains still use the adjacent tracks. With only a modicum of imagination, you could be back in the old days. San Antonians should count themselves lucky.

If the article gave the date the Credit Union bought the build, I did not see it, but form things said, it had to be somewhere around 1985.. - OK, only one 5

 

[Ryan]

19855? It's a train station! FROM THE FUTURE!!!

 

[George Harris]

19855? It's a train station! FROM THE FUTURE!!!

Now fixed. :blush:

 

[henryj]

To all: I stand corrected. I know that when the Interamerican operated there was no station at the stop and that peple were basically dumped on the ground. A little research led me to: http://txtransportationmuseum.org/IGN.htm

George, thanks for the link. Lots of interesting information. Although I have seen the restored depot, I had no idea the decay it had fallen into nor how close we came to losing it or the amount of work it took to restore it. San Antonio is fortunate to have two of it's three stations still standing. Here in Houston we lost our best and most beautiful station in the 1960's when the SP sold it and they tore it down to build the downtown post office. Union station is of course now the entrance to the ball park. All we have is a little one room building the SP put up after the sale to service the still running Sunset Limited.........and after 50 something years it's still running.

http://www.epperts.com/lfa/BB67.html

 

[daveyb99]

There is no direct connection between either of the tracks that go north out of San Antonio and the east-west line on which the Amtrak Station is located that permits the Texas Eagle to move directly into and out of the Amtrak San Antonio station.

A little history:

THAT was about as painful as the actual maneuvers.

 

[henryj]

Just wondering if anyone has actually read the Amtrak report in detail. I just glanced through it and found several glaring errors. For instance, in the Operations section on page 18 it states that the Sunset/Eagle train will be six cars long.....but it lists 7 cars for the consist. Two coaches, one baggage coach, one CCC, one Lounge, one trans-dorm and one sleeper. Seven. The stub train to New Orleans is to be three cars, coach, baggage coach and CCC. West of SAS there will be two engines run 'elephant style'(their term). At SAS the engines split with one on the Eagle and one on the stub train. No provisions is mentioned for when a train limps into SAS with a dead engine. Which train gets the good one. lol. On page 19 and again on page 20 it states that freed up assets includes five sleepers, yet elsewhere on page 3 it lists only four.

On page 32 it lists detailed passenger loadings (on and offs). Everywhere the Sunset/Eagle is going from three times a week to daily it shows huge percentage gains..........that is except for Lafayette, Lake Charles, New Iberia and Beaumont which show huge declines. what's up with that? Did they just get this backwards? It makes no sense. I tried looking at the financial aspect of all this, but Amtrak's numbers just make no sense to me. But really, doesn't anyone proof read these documents before they go public?

I am sure if you look at it some more you will find more discrepancies. It's really a pretty poor document for a major Federal agency, don't you think?

 

[mfastx]

On page 32 it lists detailed passenger loadings (on and offs). Everywhere the Sunset/Eagle is going from three times a week to daily it shows huge percentage gains..........that is except for Lafayette, Lake Charles, New Iberia and Beaumont which show huge declines. what's up with that? Did they just get this backwards?

I wonder if that has anything to do with the arrival/departure time for those cities. For example, there will probably be less passengers if boarding at 3:00 AM rather than the current time, which may be more convienent.

 

[George Harris]

There is no direct connection between either of the tracks that go north out of San Antonio and the east-west line on which the Amtrak Station is located that permits the Texas Eagle to move directly into and out of the Amtrak San Antonio station.

A little history:

THAT was about as painful as the actual maneuvers.

Just re-read what I wrote and found one glaring error which no one has called me on - yet: I stated that the Katy's Texas Special did not go through Dallas. Someone needs to slap me about 40 times with a mid 1950's Missouri-Kansas-Texas timetable. The Texas Special DID go through Dallas.

I was going to go back to my originla post and fix this error, but I can't. There must be some time limit on edits.

 

[henryj]

On page 32 it lists detailed passenger loadings (on and offs). Everywhere the Sunset/Eagle is going from three times a week to daily it shows huge percentage gains..........that is except for Lafayette, Lake Charles, New Iberia and Beaumont which show huge declines. what's up with that? Did they just get this backwards?

I wonder if that has anything to do with the arrival/departure time for those cities. For example, there will probably be less passengers if boarding at 3:00 AM rather than the current time, which may be more convienent.

Those cities all board in daylight. They are on the stub train route. Yet that route shows increases for New Orleans, Houston and San Antonio but declines in all the local in between cities. It's just an error. They got the signs backwards.

 

[henryj]

There is no direct connection between either of the tracks that go north out of San Antonio and the east-west line on which the Amtrak Station is located that permits the Texas Eagle to move directly into and out of the Amtrak San Antonio station.

A little history:

THAT was about as painful as the actual maneuvers.

Just re-read what I wrote and found one glaring error which no one has called me on - yet: I stated that the Katy's Texas Special did not go through Dallas. Someone needs to slap me about 40 times with a mid 1950's Missouri-Kansas-Texas timetable. The Texas Special DID go through Dallas.

I was going to go back to my originla post and fix this error, but I can't. There must be some time limit on edits.

Actually I did mention it George back on page 2. You just missed it. "The Texas Special however did go through Dallas. It split in Waco and sent a section through Fort Worth and one through Dallas. They recombined north of Dallas in Dennison. The MP Eagle San Antonio section however went north east through Hearne and hooked up with the Houston section at Palestine and the Dallas section in Longview."

 

[George Harris]

I was going to go back to my original post and fix this error, but I can't. There must be some time limit on edits.

Actually I did mention it George back on page 2. You just missed it. "The Texas Special however did go through Dallas. It split in Waco and sent a section through Fort Worth and one through Dallas. They recombined north of Dallas in Dennison. The MP Eagle San Antonio section however went north east through Hearne and hooked up with the Houston section at Palestine and the Dallas section in Longview."

True. I was attmpting to correct an error I made.

 

[had8ley]

Just wondering if anyone has actually read the Amtrak report in detail. I just glanced through it and found several glaring errors. For instance, in the Operations section on page 18 it states that the Sunset/Eagle train will be six cars long.....but it lists 7 cars for the consist. Two coaches, one baggage coach, one CCC, one Lounge, one trans-dorm and one sleeper. Seven. The stub train to New Orleans is to be three cars, coach, baggage coach and CCC. West of SAS there will be two engines run 'elephant style'(their term). At SAS the engines split with one on the Eagle and one on the stub train. No provisions is mentioned for when a train limps into SAS with a dead engine. Which train gets the good one. lol. On page 19 and again on page 20 it states that freed up assets includes five sleepers, yet elsewhere on page 3 it lists only four.

On page 32 it lists detailed passenger loadings (on and offs). Everywhere the Sunset/Eagle is going from three times a week to daily it shows huge percentage gains..........that is except for Lafayette, Lake Charles, New Iberia and Beaumont which show huge declines. what's up with that? Did they just get this backwards? It makes no sense. I tried looking at the financial aspect of all this, but Amtrak's numbers just make no sense to me. But really, doesn't anyone proof read these documents before they go public?

I am sure if you look at it some more you will find more discrepancies. It's really a pretty poor document for a major Federal agency, don't you think?

Hey it's called bureauracy;I just don't think Amtrak would be considered a "major" agency especially by many Republicans and a few Dems. Ten clowns sitting at a conference table texting their wives; ten assistants to get coffee and donuts; two scribes to take down anything of interest (one relieves the other) and a pay check for occupying space. It can't get any better than that!

 

[Bob Dylan]

It can get better Jay! How bout when there's two engineers in the front where there usually is only one! Does that mean they get to take turns sleeping or have a few cold ones?? :lol:

(I know that usually there is either a trainee or the engineer is being qualified by the boss, just kidding Jay! ) But you sure nailed the meeting scenario in Govt. offices! The Stub train doesnt sound all that wonderful to me, I still think Alan B has it right about this plan, the stub train will probably disappear just like the Sunset East did! :angry2:

 

[henryj]

It can get better Jay! How bout when there's two engineers in the front where there usually is only one! Does that mean they get to take turns sleeping or have a few cold ones?? :lol:

(I know that usually there is either a trainee or the engineer is being qualified by the boss, just kidding Jay! ) But you sure nailed the meeting scenario in Govt. offices! The Stub train doesnt sound all that wonderful to me, I still think Alan B has it right about this plan, the stub train will probably disappear just like the Sunset East did! :angry2:

Jim, I personally think they are setting it up to demand state support east of San Antonio. The route will be under the 750 mile limit set by Congressional mandate. If Texas and Louisiana don't agree to support it, it's history.

 

[had8ley]

It can get better Jay! How bout when there's two engineers in the front where there usually is only one! Does that mean they get to take turns sleeping or have a few cold ones?? :lol:

(I know that usually there is either a trainee or the engineer is being qualified by the boss, just kidding Jay! ) But you sure nailed the meeting scenario in Govt. offices! The Stub train doesnt sound all that wonderful to me, I still think Alan B has it right about this plan, the stub train will probably disappear just like the Sunset East did! :angry2:

Jim, I personally think they are setting it up to demand state support east of San Antonio. The route will be under the 750 mile limit set by Congressional mandate. If Texas and Louisiana don't agree to support it, it's history.

Jim; with Jindhal running all over the country campaigning for every one who asks :angry2: he did have time to turn down a proposal that both the mayors of Baton Rouge and New Orleans fully supported :angry2: ~ a train between the two cities to transport the displaced New Orleanians and get some of the traffic off of I-10. Then he didn't even apply for the high speed money :angry2: ~ so just how long do you think the stub train will last if it even rolls ??? I'm not grumpy tonight~ just wondering if the Sunset will die in SAS instead of NOL from now on. :angry2: