Sunset Limited east of New Orleans

[ALC Rail Writer]

And if you read the Performance Improvement Initiative for the Capitol Limited (titled Pennsylvanian on here) they are stealing the Sunset's equipment to enhance the Capitol. So not only is the Sunset never going back to Florida, the New Orleans to San Antonio leg is destined to become coach only. But hey, we get daily service

Daily service is pretty nice.

West of San Antonio the train will only be seven cars, one sleeper, one transition dorm, two coaches and a coach baggage,diner/lounge and lounge. No baggage car.

You got a Coach/Bag, that's as good as any baggage car. Heck take the ones off the Cap if you want. Bags are glorified box cars, maybe there's more pallet and LTT traffic on the CL.

Population across from Florida to California is something like 126 million or 45% equals 896 million. We can probably implement some pretty good rail service for that. Let the NEC founder on it's own.

That's a silly argument. If you want to make a cogent argument then add the population of the cities served rather than the whole bloody state's population, give ridership figures, just don't throw out a whole state's population.

And I'd like to see the states start their own service, Wisconsin and Ohio are just about to loose service that never started. Amtrak is willing to restore Sunset East if the states ante up the money-- you think they'll have a better chance to start it up without Amtrak?

 

[henryj]

Population across from Florida to California is something like 126 million or 45% equals 896 million. We can probably implement some pretty good rail service for that. Let the NEC founder on it's own.

That's a silly argument. If you want to make a cogent argument then add the population of the cities served rather than the whole bloody state's population, give ridership figures, just don't throw out a whole state's population.

And I'd like to see the states start their own service, Wisconsin and Ohio are just about to loose service that never started. Amtrak is willing to restore Sunset East if the states ante up the money-- you think they'll have a better chance to start it up without Amtrak?

It's just my perverted sense of humor. Don't get all excited about it. It often does look like we are just left out of Amtrak's plans down here in Texas doesn't it.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Texas has daily CHI service, tri-weekly service between LAX and NOL, possibly daily to both on separate trains and the HF.

I hardly see how Texas is getting the short end of the straw. I travel to and from NYP at least every two months for various reasons. I have done the PGH layover between the Cap and Penny dozens of times, it sucks. If we got through car service I'd be on the first train with a birthday cake and sleeper tickets!

 

[saxman]

If i'm not mistaken, even thought the Sunset East was about 1/3 of the route miles of the total Sunset Limited, but was also about 60% of the revenue. So I don't really think it's a revenue thing either. Plus look at the population growth along the line. Texas is one of the fastest growing states right now. Arizona is (was) too. And before the recession the Gulf Coast wasn't exactly lacking either. Yet it has the worst performing train, which isn't right. Obviously there is a real reason behind all of this and Amtrak isn't telling us.

 

[Ryan]

And if you read the Performance Improvement Initiative for the Capitol Limited (titled Pennsylvanian on here) they are stealing the Sunset's equipment to enhance the Capitol.

Where exactly does it say that?

 

[jis]

The real reason is that Amtrak wants to force the state's hands into funding the train. So far the states haven't blinked and I don't think that they ever will. And they shouldn't, this is part of the National network and therefore is Amtrak's responsibility.

I have honestly wanted to figure out a true analyzed answer to the following question....

What is it that makes a train part of *the* National Network? Clearly Sunset east was not part of any network on A-Day in 1971. It was started by Amtrak at some point, as were trains like the Pioneer, the Desert Wind, the North Coast Hiawatha, and indeed even the Cap on its current route. OTOH there were trains like the Broadway, National Limited and the Lone Star nee Texas Chief, that were running on A-Day. Some are still running and some are not. So is there something special about Sunset East that makes it a National Network train worthy of restoration more than say the Pioneer, the Desert Wind, or even the National Limited, because it was part of the Natioal Network?

Honestly I have not quite understood that argument. So please help me understand.

 

[Ryan]

So is there something special about Sunset East that makes it a National Network train worthy of restoration more than say the Pioneer, the Desert Wind, or even the National Limited, because it was part of the National Network?

I think that the difference is that all of those trains that you speak of were canceled properly, as opposed to being "suspended". Going through the process to formally cancel the train would be an effective counter to the "National Network" argument (in my mind at least).

 

[jis]

So is there something special about Sunset East that makes it a National Network train worthy of restoration more than say the Pioneer, the Desert Wind, or even the National Limited, because it was part of the National Network?

I think that the difference is that all of those trains that you speak of were canceled properly, as opposed to being "suspended". Going through the process to formally cancel the train would be an effective counter to the "National Network" argument (in my mind at least).

OK, that makes sense.

 

[henryj]

And if you read the Performance Improvement Initiative for the Capitol Limited (titled Pennsylvanian on here) they are stealing the Sunset's equipment to enhance the Capitol.

Where exactly does it say that?

On page 3 of the Sunset/Texas Eagle PIP under Equipment Implications. And on page 16 of the Capitol Limited PIP under H. Onboard Service Plan.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241245669222

 

[Ryan]

So are you for or against increased utilization of Amtrak's equipment?

Put differently, is Amtrak better served by having that equipment sit idle in NOL or earning revenue moving between CHI and WAS?

 

[henryj]

So are you for or against increased utilization of Amtrak's equipment?

Put differently, is Amtrak better served by having that equipment sit idle in NOL or earning revenue moving between CHI and WAS?

Once the service goes daily the equipment would not be sitting idle in NOL for three days as it is now. It would be on the road earning revenue. As part of the Capitol Limited it WOULD be sitting idle in DC for 27 hours each and every trip.

 

[Ryan]

What service are you talking about? Are you saying that the SAS-NOL train should have a sleeping car and a diner for a 13 hour daytime journey?

 

[henryj]

What service are you talking about? Are you saying that the SAS-NOL train should have a sleeping car and a diner for a 13 hour daytime journey?

To quote Amtrak's own words as stated on page 4 of the Capitol's PIP, "Market research has shown that as much as 40% of potential ridership and revenue between any two points can be lost if passengers must physically get off one train and onto another no matter how "convenient" that swap might appear". So why then are they proposing to have everyone east of San Antonio have to transfer between trains rather than continue through cars both sleeper and coach. According to Amtrak then as much as 40% of potential ridership from New Orleans(and beyond from connecting trains) and Houston will be lost. And all that just so they can send those cars to the Capitol Limited, which should be a single level train anyway. Most of the riders east of San Antonio are going west so they will now have to physically get off one train and get on another. Like I said before, Amtrak doesn't care about the market down here. They really just want to either get rid of this train or hold up the state's for more money to keep it running. Amtrak has been stealing equipment from, and downgrading service on, the Sunset Limited for decades. This is just a continuation of that process. But to placate anyone that might protest they are throwing us the daily service bone. We should be getting both.

 

[Ryan]

You didn't answer my question. Is your issue the lack of a dining car and/or sleeping car? Or is it the one seat ride?

Why should the Cap be a single level train, and where should that equipment come from?

I'm honestly trying to understand your position here.

 

[jis]

Capitol Limited, which should be a single level train anyway.

Why? Where are we going to find the cars to make it single level? Yes I know, by rerouting the Star to Chicago. No there are not enough cars around to do that either.

The only choice is to either leave things as they are, or make the service on the Sunset route daily. The question, and a legitimate one, is whether this should be done at the cost of requiring a cross platform change at SAS. Will more passengers be lost due to that than will be gained by making the service daily. Amtrak seems to thnk that overall they will get more revenue by choosing the latter course, i.e. cross platform change at SAS. At least I don;t have enough data to determine the veracity of that, nor verify that keeping the Sunset tri-weekly with no change at SAS will be more revenue generating than with a change at SAS.

One thing that is quite clear is that there will be much better equipment utilization by making the service daily.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

The only way I see the Sunset going east of NOL again is if Amtrak purchases more Superliners to make whatever amount of train-sets is needed to run a daily service from Los Angles to Orlando. I don't know where Amtrak is going to get the money to pay Union Pacific $750 million in order to make a daily Sunset/Texas Eagle service a reality. Whatever happens with the Sunset in the next few years happens whether it is killed off, becomes the Texas Eagle, or runs east of NOL on a either a tri-weekly or daily schedule. That's all I have to say on this.

 

[henryj]

Capitol Limited, which should be a single level train anyway.

Why? Where are we going to find the cars to make it single level? Yes I know, by rerouting the Star to Chicago. No there are not enough cars around to do that either.

The only choice is to either leave things as they are, or make the service on the Sunset route daily. The question, and a legitimate one, is whether this should be done at the cost of requiring a cross platform change at SAS. Will more passengers be lost due to that than will be gained by making the service daily. Amtrak seems to thnk that overall they will get more revenue by choosing the latter course, i.e. cross platform change at SAS. At least I don;t have enough data to determine the veracity of that, nor verify that keeping the Sunset tri-weekly with no change at SAS will be more revenue generating than with a change at SAS.

One thing that is quite clear is that there will be much better equipment utilization by making the service daily.

Yes of course, and I would look forward to daily service even if it's just a coach train. But Amtrak has screwed Texas before with these connecting coach trains. When they discontinued the Lone Star the gave Houston a connecting coach train to the Interamerican at Temple which didn't last very long. Then they started up a Houston to Dallas connection with the Eagle which also did not last long. Now it's a bus connection at Longview. They kind of have a history of doing this. The route is under the 750 mile threshold which makes it a candidate for state support. So the consensus down here is Amtrak will run the coach train for a short time then ask for money from the state to continue it. The state of Texas is just not going to get into the passenger train business. So after that we will be taking the 'dog' between SAS, Houston and NOL or SW Airlines.

One thing about the Capitol/Silver Star comment in the PIP. The Star is using four sets of equipment now. To run it to Chicago from DC rather than New York would only take one more set, or five sets. To run a Capitol/Star as a superliner train would only take two more sets as the Capitol now ties up three. I believe they could conjure up enough equipment to do either of those options should they decide it's worth doing. What bone they would then throw New York is anybody's guess.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

And all that just so they can send those cars to the Capitol Limited, which should be a single level train anyway.

Henry, in every conceivable way, excluding the dubious advantage of an upper window on Viewliners, bi-level cars make more sense then the single level cars- including financially. Thus, the only reason a train should be single level, and Amtrak's actions show them to agree with me, is the train passes through a point where the Superliner loading gauge is incompatible with the the route. Thus, all long distance trains that don't serve New York Penn Station are Superliners, and the ones that do are single level.

Unless, for some reason, Amtrak wants to run the Capitol Limited to New York City (god knows why...) the train should remain a Superliner train.

Texas is served by three different trains, despite the fact that the state seems to protest passenger rail. If any state is truly "screwed" on passenger rail, its Arizona- for its populated areas receive only one train, and only three times a week, and at that bypassing the main city. Wyoming and South Dakota, of course, have no trains at all.

The sleeping and dining cars, which really for Amtrak are an anachronism that happens to make financial sense, are an anomaly. What Amtrak offers most of its passengers are realistic transportation to areas where public transportation exists. At LAX, NYP, WAS, BOS, hell, even SLC, the train arrives in a city where it connects to a functional regional public transportation network.

Few of the Texas cities have them. For all of its population, clamoring to get on trains (?), it has but one crappy commuter rail system- one commuter line.

California? 4 different commuter rail operations and 10 different lines:

Metrolink- 7 different lines (Ventura County, Antelope Valley, San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange County, IEOC, 91).

Coaster- One line.

CalTrain- one line.

ACE - one line.

Chicago area?

Two systems, Metra and South Shore Line, 14 lines: (South Shore, South Chicago, Main, Blue Island, South West, Rock Island, Heritage, BNSF, UP West, Milwaukee District, Union Pacific Northwest, Milwaukee District North, North Central, Union Pacific North)

And the New York area? 3 operators; New Jersey Transit, Long Island Rail Road, Metro-North Comuter Railroad. And 25 different lines!

New Jersey Transit: Main, Bergen, Pascack Valley, Morristown, Gladstone, Montclair-Boonton, Raritan Valley, Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast (and I am leaving off the Atlantic City line, too.)

Metro-North: Port Jervis, Spring Valley, Hudson, Harlem, New Canaan, Danbury, Waterbury, New Haven

Long Island Rail Road: Main, Montauk, Port Washington, Port Jefferson, Hempstead, West Hempstead, Far Rockaway, Rockaway.

With this kind of connectivity, it makes sense for Amtrak to run all the trains it does to these states. I live in a suburb some 50 miles south of New York City. And I can get to any station Amtrak serves, theoretically, without me even getting into my car. Why? Because I can walk a little less than a mile to a bus stop, take a bus from there to a town called Red Bank, where I can board a train to New York. And From New York, I can connect to any Amtrak eastern system route save the Downeaster, Piedmont, and Capitol Limited. And I can do same-day connections to all but the Piedmont.

But in Texas? Outside of Dallas, the train is but a curio, a toy for rail fans to enjoy playing with really big train sets. Unless Texas gets serious about using public transit in general, Amtrak would be stupid to highly fund routes there.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

To run it to Chicago from DC rather than New York would only take one more set, or five sets. To run a Capitol/Star as a superliner train would only take two more sets as the Capitol now ties up three. I believe they could conjure up enough equipment to do either of those options should they decide it's worth doing. What bone they would then throw New York is anybody's guess.

Lets see, where can we get two transdorms, four sleeper, a pair café lounge, two SSLS and six coaches, at least one being a coach bag.

Somebody phone Amtrak and tell them to get their secret hoard of 16 perfectly matched Superliners out of the yards!

Or somebody show me the extra three Viewliner sleepers, single level diner, and set of AFIIs... Maybe the FRA will let Amtrak skip some of its inspections eh?

 

[henryj]

To run it to Chicago from DC rather than New York would only take one more set, or five sets. To run a Capitol/Star as a superliner train would only take two more sets as the Capitol now ties up three. I believe they could conjure up enough equipment to do either of those options should they decide it's worth doing. What bone they would then throw New York is anybody's guess.

Lets see, where can we get two transdorms, four sleeper, a pair café lounge, two SSLS and six coaches, at least one being a coach bag.

Somebody phone Amtrak and tell them to get their secret hoard of 16 perfectly matched Superliners out of the yards!

Or somebody show me the extra three Viewliner sleepers, single level diner, and set of AFIIs... Maybe the FRA will let Amtrak skip some of its inspections eh?

Actually single level is pretty easy. They already have four sets running on the Star. Each train has three viewliners or 12 total. Just put two on the thru train and you have two left over to use on extra busy days. They have plenty of coaches and diners. If it were to be a superliner train then you would have to scrounge or take from some other train. They are getting four diners and four sleepers from the Sunset/Eagle remake and they only need three. ALC, it's one of those things that if you want to do it you can find a way. If you don't want to do it then you can find a thousands reasons why it won't work. Personally I don't really care as I am unlikely to take either train. I just thought it was an interesting proposal and one that for sure would make more efficient use of existing equipment.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The Star sells out those sleepers as it is, why break that which is working? Operational costs for an additional two cars would EASILY outweigh the revenue the two cars could bring in CHI-MIA, considering those two cars already sell out half the time NYP-MIA.

And they do not have plenty of diners. There aren't even enough diners to cover the system as it stands, hence the Diner-Lites on the Cardinal.

Henry, the facts don't support your musings. I understand and appriciate them for what they are I just wish you'd look at the facts of the situation.

 

[Ryan]

Each train has three viewliners or 12 total. Just put two on the thru train and you have two left over to use on extra busy days.

We've already discussed in this thread the fact that those sleepers are already heavily utilized.

They have plenty of coaches and diners

Not on this planet. I'm not sure on the numbers on the LD coaches, but there certainly aren't enough diners to go around. The freaking LSL didn't even have a real diner for a number of years because there was such a shortage of 60 year old diners.

ALC, it's one of those things that if you want to do it you can find a way.

Not here in the real world. There are real constraints on the number of cars that Amtrak has available, and you can't conjure more up out of thin air.
Edit: ALC's post wasn't there when I started typing - looks like we're thinking along the same lines...

 

[AlanB]

Actually single level is pretty easy. They already have four sets running on the Star. Each train has three viewliners or 12 total. Just put two on the thru train and you have two left over to use on extra busy days.

Actually the Silver Star only runs with 2 Viewliner sleepers per consist; for a total of 8.

It's the Silver Meteor that runs with 3 sleepers per consist.

 

[henryj]

Actually single level is pretty easy. They already have four sets running on the Star. Each train has three viewliners or 12 total. Just put two on the thru train and you have two left over to use on extra busy days.

Actually the Silver Star only runs with 2 Viewliner sleepers per consist; for a total of 8.

It's the Silver Meteor that runs with 3 sleepers per consist.

Thanks Alan for the clarification. I was wondering if you were ever going to jump into this debate. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[jasper mcmillan]

I have read numerous claims that Amtrak wont return to the Gulf Coast because the Sunset Limited has the lowest fiscal return of all Amtrak Trains. Question: Isn't Amtrak funded by the U.S. Government? No Train in ANY country runs for profit and most ARE funded by their respective governments. There is a term that is unfamiliar to our political leaders called Infrastructure. Highways, Bridges, Railway right of ways n equipment, Electrical Grids etc. The ONLY component of the aforementioned that they relate to is Highway construction and maintenance. Interstates are funded by vast sums yet passenger Trains are tossed scraps year after year which is why train service is slipping despite the hot air put forth by Amtrak in their severely slanted annual reports. Competition is the driving force behind good service and Amtrak has no competitors thus leading to what we have now. A little Kingdom operating under the auspices of our tax dollars yet totally oblivious to the needs of the public. As an example: Atlanta, easily a very major U.S. City along with Memphis each have ONE train operating both ways to and from the north east. The Gulf Coast has no passenger train service at all. In Europe or Asia, this would be tantamount to dereliction of duty by Amtrak Officers and they would be replaced.