Southwest Chief Re-Route?

[PRR 60]

Here is the Cameron Connector between the old CB&Q/BN and ATSF built in 1996 by BNSF:

Google Map

 

[railiner]

If I recall, the old BN mainline and the ATSF mainline either crossed at grade, or had interchange tracks west of Galesburg, prior to that 1996 connector, while east of Galesburg, the BN crossed over the ATSF, on a bridge, with no interchange tracks. The ATSF station, GBA, was north of the GBB station in town. Not sure how the Quincy line interchanges with the ATSF, since it goes south from GBB......

 

[George Harris]

If I recall, the old BN mainline and the ATSF mainline either crossed at grade, or had interchange tracks west of Galesburg, prior to that 1996 connector, while east of Galesburg, the BN crossed over the ATSF, on a bridge, with no interchange tracks. The ATSF station, GBA, was north of the GBB station in town. Not sure how the Quincy line interchanges with the ATSF, since it goes south from GBB......

The ex CB&Q goes over the AT&SF twice. Once just east of the center of Galesburg. The other west of Galesburg just east of Cameron. The double wye just east of Cameron was built after the AT&SF + BN merger.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

If I recall, the old BN mainline and the ATSF mainline either crossed at grade, or had interchange tracks west of Galesburg, prior to that 1996 connector, while east of Galesburg, the BN crossed over the ATSF, on a bridge, with no interchange tracks. The ATSF station, GBA, was north of the GBB station in town. Not sure how the Quincy line interchanges with the ATSF, since it goes south from GBB......

The ex CB&Q goes over the AT&SF twice. Once just east of the center of Galesburg. The other west of Galesburg just east of Cameron. The double wye just east of Cameron was built after the AT&SF + BN merger.

Dosen't the Burlington still go over the Sante Fe at Cameron? The connector on the map is a bit east of the crossing. It seems that after the crossing, the SWC merges onto the Santa Fe line and runs under the Burlington.

 

[zephyr17]

The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.

FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it anyway.

What? Doesn't the SWC cross over from old ex-CB&Q to ex Santa Fe just outside of Galesburg? Fort Madison is far afar away from where it joins the ex-ATSF.

Yep, specifically, the SWC is on the Transcon from Cameron, Il, just outside Galesburg, to just west of Argentine Yard in Kansas City, then from Emporia,KS to Newton, KS, and finally from Dalies, NM the rest of the way to LA. If the re-route happens, it will be on theTranscon from Emporia on west, except for the proposed run up to Albuquerque.

 

[bgiaquin]

The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.

FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it anyway.

What? Doesn't the SWC cross over from old ex-CB&Q to ex Santa Fe just outside of Galesburg? Fort Madison is far afar away from where it joins the ex-ATSF.

Yep, just west of Galesburg, at Cameron, IL, 50ish miles east of Fort Madison.

okay thank you for correcting me. I do not know that area very well. Anyway, I believe BNSF can fit the SWC into the transcon. I love the current route, but in the long term, unless someone pays that 100 mil, the transcon is a better option. BTW, I am a new user to this site, but not to Amtrak. I have been riding for the past 15 years. I am glad to join your community.

 

[Eric S]

The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.

FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it anyway.

What? Doesn't the SWC cross over from old ex-CB&Q to ex Santa Fe just outside of Galesburg? Fort Madison is far afar away from where it joins the ex-ATSF.

Yep, specifically, the SWC is on the Transcon from Cameron, Il, just outside Galesburg, to just west of Argentine Yard in Kansas City, then from Emporia,KS to Newton, KS, and finally from Dalies, NM the rest of the way to LA. If the re-route happens, it will be on theTranscon from Emporia on west, except for the proposed run up to Albuquerque.

Actually it just joins the Transcon for a small bit through and to the west of Emporia, not the entire way from Emporia to Newton. The Transon and the northern/passenger/SWC route split between Emporia and Strong City.

 

[zephyr17]

The "Transcon" is generally considered to be Chicago(Corwith)-Los Angeles(Hobart). Ft. Madison is just a division point on the way. And Topeka isn't on the Transcon, it is on a secondary line. The Transcon goes through Ottawa, KS.

FYI I know where the transcon goes to & from,but I meant the part of the transcon the SWC uses, and it joins it at Fort Madison, or at least near it anyway.

What? Doesn't the SWC cross over from old ex-CB&Q to ex Santa Fe just outside of Galesburg? Fort Madison is far afar away from where it joins the ex-ATSF.

Yep, specifically, the SWC is on the Transcon from Cameron, Il, just outside Galesburg, to just west of Argentine Yard in Kansas City, then from Emporia,KS to Newton, KS, and finally from Dalies, NM the rest of the way to LA. If the re-route happens, it will be on theTranscon from Emporia on west, except for the proposed run up to Albuquerque.

Actually it just joins the Transcon for a small bit through and to the west of Emporia, not the entire way from Emporia to Newton. The Transon and the northern/passenger/SWC route split between Emporia and Strong City.

I thought I read somewhere BNSF runs Transcon traffic (largely) directionally between Ellinor and WN Jct, which is why I put Newton as the split, not Ellinor. Not positive about that, though.

 

[Eric S]

I haven't heard about the directional running between Ellinor and WN Jct (near Mulvane, right?). That could certainly be the case, though.

I lived in Wichita until 1997, and at that time BNSF did not utilize directional running there. There was much more traffic (in both directions) on the line through El Dorado than on the line through Newton/Wichita.

 

[cirdan]

Stupid question coming up.

I understand the Raton route is the original Santa Fe line transcon.

Why then did they later build the present transcon, and seeing that route is flatter and faster, why didn't they go that way from the beginning?

 

[zephyr17]

I know a little of it. AT&SF originally did not the rights to build the "35th Paralllel" route, SL&SF (Frisco) did. The original line was the line toward El Paso, the branch that hooked up to the SP at Deming (now a shortline between Rincon and Deming). At some point, AT&SF subsidiary Atlantic & Pacific, jointly with the Frisco (IIRC) took the rights and started building west from Albuquerque on the original line. Frisco theoretically had the rights to that route east of NM. Frisco went bankrupt at some point, and Santa Fe bought out the rest of the A&P.

Another aspect of that was that SP wanted to block entry of A&P from California, so built the original line to Needles out of Mojave. A&P and SP both wound up with a "line to nowhere" (Needles) which is the western part of today's Transcon. SP & A&P (AT&SF) wound up agreeing to exchange track, a Santa Fe line in Mexico (former SPdeM to Guymas, I think, but am not sure) to SP for the line from Mojave to Needles to the Santa Fe. Santa Fe got the better end of that deal. They acquired the California Southern for the entry in Southern California, originally San Diego from the line that is now the San Jacinto Branch that extended through Temecula Canyon (and washed out). Orange Empire Railway Museum is on the remnant of that line south of Perris, CA.

In most respects, Santa Fe "just growed". It wasn't like the GN where Hill set out for Seattle right from the word "go".

 

[The Davy Crockett]

It wasn't like the GN where Hill set out for Seattle right from the word "go".

This is a gross oversimplification, but actually Hill got involved in railroad ownership when he pulled some pretty outlandish 'stunts' with three other partners to gain control of the St. Paul & Pacific RR. Hill saw that the bankrupt line was worth much more than what they could acquire for - if they could finagle the deal. Under their ownership the name was changed to the St Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba Railway Co. and they built it to serve their land grants from the State of Minnesota in the fertile northwestern part of the state - mostly in the Red River Valley. Only later did Hill have the power, money and political clout to extend it to the west coast. While it is true he had dreamed of 'The Orient' since youth, he did not set out for Seattle from the word 'go.'

An easy reading biography of him is "James J. Hill, Empire Builder of the Northwest" By Michael P. Malone

 

[George Harris]

If I recall, the old BN mainline and the ATSF mainline either crossed at grade, or had interchange tracks west of Galesburg, prior to that 1996 connector, while east of Galesburg, the BN crossed over the ATSF, on a bridge, with no interchange tracks. The ATSF station, GBA, was north of the GBB station in town. Not sure how the Quincy line interchanges with the ATSF, since it goes south from GBB......

The ex CB&Q goes over the AT&SF twice. Once just east of the center of Galesburg. The other west of Galesburg just east of Cameron. The double wye just east of Cameron was built after the AT&SF + BN merger.

Dosen't the Burlington still go over the Sante Fe at Cameron? The connector on the map is a bit east of the crossing. It seems that after the crossing, the SWC merges onto the Santa Fe line and runs under the Burlington.

Yes

 

[printman2000]

Looks like a meeting will be happening in Pueblo, Co to discuss ways to save the current route.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/article_dee1b4ce-b741-5686-9ae3-d54207d75980.html

GARDEN CITY, Kan. — Community leaders from Kansas are meeting with their counterparts from Colorado and New Mexico next week to look for ways to save an Amtrak route through Kansas and Colorado.

 

[henryj]

Personally, I am torn between the two options. Being in Texas, I would love to see service through Amarillo restored with a thruway bus to Lubbock. On the other hand I hate to see the Raton Pass line abandoned. But, even if the money is found through the states and cities the train passes through, is it worth the millions that will be spent to just keep running these two trains on that track when there are so many other Amtrak needs? Things like a daily Sunset, restore service between New Orleans and Florida, thru way bus connection to Phoenix, corridor service in Texas, Chicago to Florida service restoration, Denver to the Pacific NW, St Louis/KC to Denver connections...just to name a few. Orders for new Superliners. The list goes on. My stand on this is if the money isn't forthcoming from outside Amtrak, then just reroute the train, period, and get it over with. The train is often sold out anyway and there is no promise of any new or additional equipment becoming available in the forseable future. I doubt if the reroute will result in a speedier schedule, but there is nothing wrong with the current schedule.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Looks like a meeting will be happening in Pueblo, Co to discuss ways to save the current route.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/article_dee1b4ce-b741-5686-9ae3-d54207d75980.html

GARDEN CITY, Kan. — Community leaders from Kansas are meeting with their counterparts from Colorado and New Mexico next week to look for ways to save an Amtrak route through Kansas and Colorado.

Politicians love to hold Meetings and Talk Big, but putting Money where their Mouth is is a Whole "Nother Story!

 

[George Harris]

Looks like a meeting will be happening in Pueblo, Co to discuss ways to save the current route.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/article_dee1b4ce-b741-5686-9ae3-d54207d75980.html

GARDEN CITY, Kan. — Community leaders from Kansas are meeting with their counterparts from Colorado and New Mexico next week to look for ways to save an Amtrak route through Kansas and Colorado.

Politicians love to hold Meetings and Talk Big, but putting Money where their Mouth is is a Whole "Nother Story!

Calling for a study is usually for two purposes: 1. To look like you are trying to do something when you really are not. 2. To keep something from being done.

There are some companies that are good at these things, but when you see one that looks like the authors fell of the turnip truck yesterday, that is paying off a political favor.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Personally, I am torn between the two options. Being in Texas, I would love to see service through Amarillo restored with a thruway bus to Lubbock. On the other hand I hate to see the Raton Pass line abandoned. But, even if the money is found through the states and cities the train passes through, is it worth the millions that will be spent to just keep running these two trains on that track when there are so many other Amtrak needs? Things like a daily Sunset, restore service between New Orleans and Florida, thru way bus connection to Phoenix, corridor service in Texas, Chicago to Florida service restoration, Denver to the Pacific NW, St Louis/KC to Denver connections...just to name a few. Orders for new Superliners. The list goes on. My stand on this is if the money isn't forthcoming from outside Amtrak, then just reroute the train, period, and get it over with. The train is often sold out anyway and there is no promise of any new or additional equipment becoming available in the forseable future. I doubt if the reroute will result in a speedier schedule, but there is nothing wrong with the current schedule.

Agreed. If they can save time and money by rerouting through Amarillo. The route from Kansas City-Amarillo is car-only right now, so this train coul help a lot. The Raton Pass route still has generally parallel bus service.

Amtrak should just go ahead with the reroute when all station problems have been resolved. Even an Amshack would be better than nothing.

 

[Notelvis]

Personally, I am torn between the two options. Being in Texas, I would love to see service through Amarillo restored with a thruway bus to Lubbock. On the other hand I hate to see the Raton Pass line abandoned. But, even if the money is found through the states and cities the train passes through, is it worth the millions that will be spent to just keep running these two trains on that track when there are so many other Amtrak needs? Things like a daily Sunset, restore service between New Orleans and Florida, thru way bus connection to Phoenix, corridor service in Texas, Chicago to Florida service restoration, Denver to the Pacific NW, St Louis/KC to Denver connections...just to name a few. Orders for new Superliners. The list goes on. My stand on this is if the money isn't forthcoming from outside Amtrak, then just reroute the train, period, and get it over with. The train is often sold out anyway and there is no promise of any new or additional equipment becoming available in the forseable future. I doubt if the reroute will result in a speedier schedule, but there is nothing wrong with the current schedule.

Agreed. If they can save time and money by rerouting through Amarillo. The route from Kansas City-Amarillo is car-only right now, so this train coul help a lot. The Raton Pass route still has generally parallel bus service.

Amtrak should just go ahead with the reroute when all station problems have been resolved. Even an Amshack would be better than nothing.

Or temporary waiting rooms set up in trailers until more substantial station facilities are renovated or constructed from scratch.

Given the condition of the Raton Pass line when I last rode it in July 2012, I'm of the opinion that this reroute is much more likely than not to happen........ and that it might even happen sooner than expected. The more time passes without any maintenance performed over Raton Pass, the more costly it's going to be to bring the line back up to standard. Whether that's done or not, it would still take only one big landslide on Raton Pass and suddenly it's "Hello Amarillo!"

 

[Nathanael]

Regarding "station issues":

Under current law Amtrak would have to build a full platform with tactile edging and a wheelchair-accessible approach walkway, along with a suitable wheelchair lift (and presumably an enclosure to prevent the lift from being stolen) in order to open an Amarillo station. That should be less than a million dollars.

In order to avoid a very long and delay-prone rigamarole of paperwork with the FRA, however, Amtrak would also need to get a platform siding and build an 18" ATR platform on the siding. This might be quite a bit more expensive. I don't know how long it would take to get BNSF to do this, either.

It looks like there's room for a long straight siding south of the old station, though.

Wichita still *has* a station, which would just need a little sprucing up.

 

[Paul CHI]

I've ridden through Raton Pass a number of times, and after the first couple of times didn't find it particularly enjoyable. I hate to travel at 15mph when I'm on a train.

The Transcon goes through Abo canyon, which is pretty country also, not to mention the red rocks scenery between Albuquerque and Gallup.

NM and Colorado should convert Raton Pass to narrow gauge and run scenic tours instead.

 

[henryj]

Regarding "station issues":Under current law Amtrak would have to build a full platform with tactile edging and a wheelchair-accessible approach walkway, along with a suitable wheelchair lift (and presumably an enclosure to prevent the lift from being stolen) in order to open an Amarillo station. That should be less than a million dollars.

In order to avoid a very long and delay-prone rigamarole of paperwork with the FRA, however, Amtrak would also need to get a platform siding and build an 18" ATR platform on the siding. This might be quite a bit more expensive. I don't know how long it would take to get BNSF to do this, either.

It looks like there's room for a long straight siding south of the old station, though.

Wichita still *has* a station, which would just need a little sprucing up.

A few million for station improvements on the re-route is nothing compared to the 100's of millions it will take to keep Raton open.

 

[jis]

NM and Colorado should convert Raton Pass to narrow gauge and run scenic tours instead.

They don't seem to be able to maintain the current track and you think they will be able to rip those out, and lay new tracks? Maybe they can instead convert Trinidad to Albuquerque into a heavy light rail service using Tier I compliant Stadler DLRTs with some minimal maintenance work on the track that is already in place. that might be within the realm of possibilities if at all.

 

[VentureForth]

NM and Colorado should convert Raton Pass to narrow gauge and run scenic tours instead.

No point in converting it to Narrow Gauge. The Silverton & Durango and the Cumberland are Narrow Gauge because that's how they started life. If the SWC gets moved to the Transcon, some moderate use by RDCs or something lightweight on existing track that gets no maintenance could probably sustain itself without major improvements - keeping to a speed of around 20 MPH or so.

 

[George Harris]

NM and Colorado should convert Raton Pass to narrow gauge and run scenic tours instead.

No point in converting it to Narrow Gauge. The Silverton & Durango and the Cumberland are Narrow Gauge because that's how they started life. If the SWC gets moved to the Transcon, some moderate use by RDCs or something lightweight on existing track that gets no maintenance could probably sustain itself without major improvements - keeping to a speed of around 20 MPH or so.

Reality check: The current route is reaching the point that it is not servicable at all regardless of the volume of traffic and axle loads. The current track material is simply beat to death. Even with light vehicles it will still be a bone jarring low speed ride. If fixed up, it would hold up longer under light axle load low volume traffic, but other than the engines on the front of the SW Chief that is what is running on it now. Changing to all light axle loads does not suddenly improve the track condition, it just slows the rate of further deterioration. The line is simply reaching the point that it must have a rail relya and a heavy tie and surfacing job to stay in service at all for any form of operation.