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dogbert617
OBS Chief
Entitlement has become an epidemic in this country as people either never were taught manners and common courtesy, or just plain dont care about others!
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RSG
OBS Chief
The California Zephyr gets more than its fair share, probably due to it being the 'most scenic route' in the AMTK system. Though I believe they routinely populate the Southwest Chief as well. As another of our regulars states, they bought a ticket to ride and they were under the impression they would be riding the stateside version of the Orient Express. When they find out that isn't quite the case, they attempt to make up for it in any manner possible.Amen to this post, so very sadly.I wish this trend would stop....
Horrible to read about those who were doing the America By Rail travel package. Are there certain Amtrak lines where they more often book trips for, vs. other lines? I hope I don't run into such entitled jerks, whenever I do a long distance train trip west I'm considering doing, in the future.
They are offended they cannot have an empty seat beside them, be it in the lounge car or the dining car (and are insulted that community seating in the DC is the rule, not the exception). I have no clue as to the scheduling of the ABR and similar groups, though I notice that most of the groups have older adults populating them, so theoretically they could be booking anytime of the year. In practice, I most often encounter them between Memorial Day and Labor Day.
I believe that its time for Amtrak to explain to rail tour groups that there are rules on the train. When those rules are broken all passengers suffer. We have sat in the dining car with people from all over the world from every different background and have always had good experiences. Only once did we sit with American by Rail passengers in the dining car. These two were the most miserable people that we ever dined with. They were absolutely appalled that they could not have a private table.
IMO the problem stems from the way the tour company markets their rail trips. They charge a lot of money for those trips and the people that they attract are not regular rail travelers. Many have no concept of rules and no understanding that they share a public train with others. This is partly Amtrak's fault for not insisting that tour companies post rules for tour participants that they can read before they buy. While we cannot ever generalize about one group or another, when you are dealing with tour groups, its a whole new ball game.
IMO the problem stems from the way the tour company markets their rail trips. They charge a lot of money for those trips and the people that they attract are not regular rail travelers. Many have no concept of rules and no understanding that they share a public train with others. This is partly Amtrak's fault for not insisting that tour companies post rules for tour participants that they can read before they buy. While we cannot ever generalize about one group or another, when you are dealing with tour groups, its a whole new ball game.
To avoid traveling with this group, you can go to their website,
http://www.americabyrail.com/
and lookup the dates they operate on different itineraries....
I believe that the group should be required to 'charter' their own train, or at least their own exclusive occupancy cars...coach, sleeper, or diner-lounge. That would solve the problem.
That's the way the old "Four Winds Tours" used to operate before and during the early days of Amtrak...
If Amtrak can't supply the additional required cars, there are lots of PV's available that can be rented...
http://www.americabyrail.com/
and lookup the dates they operate on different itineraries....
I believe that the group should be required to 'charter' their own train, or at least their own exclusive occupancy cars...coach, sleeper, or diner-lounge. That would solve the problem.
That's the way the old "Four Winds Tours" used to operate before and during the early days of Amtrak...
If Amtrak can't supply the additional required cars, there are lots of PV's available that can be rented...
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That would be great but the increase in their cost to run the tour would make the cost of tour tickets rise significantly. Not sure the size of all the tours, but a friend of mine took a tour that left CHI for Glacier on the EB. Later they finished Glacier to Seattle. The group was 44 plus group leaders, I think two. They were in the sleepers, but the tour group charged a major premium for single. My friend said they offered to try to match singles for the train trips. He said they had about 25 rooms in two cars going to Seattle. He paid the extra for a Bedroom. The group was told they would have a guided tour by train through Glacier in the SSL. He said they made their reservations for all three meals before it was announced over the PA. He said he felt like they were stepping on other passengers on the train, but he is the type who cares about everyone and doesn't have an enemy. I emailed him about the tour, his thoughts to my questions were that their, his wife was with him, tour guides saw the passengers as just getting transport from A to B where there group was aboard to see the the scenery. Oh! Rusty also said they had a welcome recption in the SSL departing Chicago.
Okay...I can see your point...they may not have a large enough 'group' to make what I suggested feasible, economically speaking...they could perhaps do it by cutting some of their dates, and then have larger groups on the remainder.
But if not, they should at least take some of the suggestion's in earlier posts, to 'educate' their clients in proper civil behavior re: sharing of public space aboard the train...and not instill the sense of 'entitlement' in their promotion's...
But if not, they should at least take some of the suggestion's in earlier posts, to 'educate' their clients in proper civil behavior re: sharing of public space aboard the train...and not instill the sense of 'entitlement' in their promotion's...
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I think maybe having their own SSL or DC would help in the summer, but again it is only used part way, and just one way, so for Amtrak that is a lot of non use for the car and the extra staff.
seat38a
Engineer
The problem is the tour company tries to sell Amtrak as if it is the Orient Express or the Hiram Bingham to retirees with money who normally would pay a premium for the Orient Express and expect service accordingly. Just watch the video on America By Rail website. I'd be thoroughly disappointed too if I didn't know about Amtrak and they sold it to me as some glamorous adventure.
the_traveler
Engineer
So what if increasing the cost of a "rail tour" with a private company costs more to charter PV's? :huh: Amtrak is not a private company like America By Rail is. Nobody is forced to buy from them, so why should they have more "rights" than Amtrak passengers who paid Amtrak to ride an Amtrak train operated by Amtrak.
I'd say let America By Rail operate their own train or cars for their own customers!
I'd say let America By Rail operate their own train or cars for their own customers!
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Be careful what you wish for. Disallowing outfits like America by Rail to use Amtrak makes Amtrak that much less useful in the eyes of a few critical people perhaps, which may not be such a good thing.
crescent-zephyr
Engineer
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It doesn't make sense for a company to turn down business. Meaning... Why would Amtrak not want to sell tickets to those people? On my last southwest flight, Half the flight was taken up by a Boy Scout group. They of course all wanted to sit togehter, kids sat in the exit rows that then had to be moved... The leaders acted Iike their group of kids should get special treatment... It's just part of group travel. It can be annoying... True, but they did pay to be there.
I do agree that vacations by rail is selling a fancier experience than they give...
I do agree that vacations by rail is selling a fancier experience than they give...
MikefromCrete
Engineer
How horrible! A company that provides Amtrak with money by booking expensive sleeper rooms at the most expensive time of the year! The nerve of such a company, getting people to ride Amtrak. All those rooms should be left open so that AU members can have them at cheap prices.
Honestly, this place sometimes reminds me of the pitchfork-carying mobs that show up frequently in Simpsons episodes.
Honestly, this place sometimes reminds me of the pitchfork-carying mobs that show up frequently in Simpsons episodes.
Ryan
Court Jester
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I seriously doubt the Tour groups are paying anything higher than the lowest bucket and their group discount may mean even lower pricing. The Tour companies commit as soon as Amtrak will take a group reservation, then they open up their sites for reservations.
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
And by doing so they are likely getting a reduced rate, actually DEPRIVING Amtrak of potential revenue. In addition, they block out seats/sleeper space that could easily be sold individually.
Let the lanyard gangs book private varnish, keeping them out of the mix of Amtrak pax and still providing Amtrak with revenue from carrying the PVs.
That is part of the rub most companies will take actual revenue over potential revenue.
After reading some of these posts, I am afraid to tell you that I took my first America by Rail trip last year--the Trans-Canada Trip. I have used Amtrak for over 25 years, but thought I would try one of these Group Trips. It was wonderful, well-planned, and worth what I spent. (And I am on my second trip next month which includes both the California Zephyr and Southwest Chief) We had 24 people on the Chicago-Seattle portion of the trip last year, adding 14 people in Seattle to connect to The Canadian in Vancouver, B.C. You can join a trip in various locations, or fly to connect to the Group. On the Empire Builder, we occupied one Sleeper completely, and part of a second. We used the Dining Car like any other Sleeping Car passenger, same for the Lounge Car where we paid the Snack Bar for anything purchased there. We sat with other passengers, had a wonderful time, shared our Halloween candy with everyone in the Sleeper. Our Tour Guide never told us to do anything that another passenger wouldn't do -- but tips are included in the tour price.
I would make the observation that most of the 38 total people on the Tour were not "rail fans" as such, but were pleasant and polite people. Sorry if other trips weren't such. On America by Rail, some of the transportation is achieved on Deluxe Motorcoaches (they use impressive buses) and our Tour Guide was impressive in making sure all went well. Their catalog says they are one of the largest purchasers of accommodations on Amtrak, and there is likely a discount, but the people on the tours are paying their way. It is a way to provide train transportation and assist with arrangements,etc. When others saw my red lanyard with America by Rail, it often provoked questions and discussion about our trip.
At Chicago, we were escorted to the train from the Metropolitan Lounge as a group just before the regular boarding, same at VIA Rail Stations. There was no welcome event on the train. On the other end of the trip, about 15 people departed at Albany headed for eastern homes; the rest of us returned to Chicago making a complete rail loop.
I would make the observation that most of the 38 total people on the Tour were not "rail fans" as such, but were pleasant and polite people. Sorry if other trips weren't such. On America by Rail, some of the transportation is achieved on Deluxe Motorcoaches (they use impressive buses) and our Tour Guide was impressive in making sure all went well. Their catalog says they are one of the largest purchasers of accommodations on Amtrak, and there is likely a discount, but the people on the tours are paying their way. It is a way to provide train transportation and assist with arrangements,etc. When others saw my red lanyard with America by Rail, it often provoked questions and discussion about our trip.
At Chicago, we were escorted to the train from the Metropolitan Lounge as a group just before the regular boarding, same at VIA Rail Stations. There was no welcome event on the train. On the other end of the trip, about 15 people departed at Albany headed for eastern homes; the rest of us returned to Chicago making a complete rail loop.
I don't know what their people say in person, but neither the general website nor the trip brochures make some of the promises that people here allude to. There is a general deterioration of civility in many aspects of our daily lives, flying used to be luxurious, now its mostly like bus travel with wings. Sad. The regular passengers on the train can be pretty awful sometimes also.
My contention is that tour groups hurt Amtrak revenue more than help it. They book trips on the busiest routes in the busiest summer months. Amtrak would sell out those trains regardless. I went to the America by Rail site to find their tour dates looking to avoid them. When we got on the CZ there was another rail tour group in the sleepers. Why if it keeps going like this, we won't even be able to find space anymore or everything will be at high bucket for the ordinary traveler. These groups need their own private cars. On our Denver trip last June there were three private cars attached to the Capitol Ltd and then to the CZ at CUS. I believe that there was a diner lounge, a dome car and a full sleeper. That tour group got the four star high end service that they paid for, they were catered to, and did not have to suffer the pain of being with the peasants on the rest of the train. I spoke with a couple of passengers on that tour and they were very pleased with the luxury of the service
Why do you constantly put people into classes in your posts. We're all riding the rails together regardless of how well off we may or not be. I am no better or worse than any other pax on any trains I ride.
RSG
OBS Chief
The issue, I think, is that you and I may see it like that, but there is a select group of passengers who do think they are better than you or I or the college student who is just trying to economically get from Point A to Point B.
Part of the reason I love Amtrak is for the egalitarian experience. I can have breakfast with a retired college professor from U of Mich, and lunch with a student from Schenectady, then dinner with an Amish farmer and a retired couple from New Zealand. All of us are generally dressed the same and lose our balance the same when the train hits a particularly rough portion of the track. There are no curtains which separate the Beautiful People from the riff-raff, no gourmet meals served with premium wines which are simply unavailable to those who are not sitting in the section with 2 x 2 seating. Everyone on Amtrak eats the same food (or not) and gets the same service (and food) in the cafe car.
However, with many of the rail tour groups there is an expectation that they should be treated better than the average passenger. Whether it's because they paid X amount or because they think they are in a select class (ie, group) which is better than those who aren't, or some other reason, the entitlement is there nonetheless. This creates issues for the OBS staff as well as for those who are not in the group. I get as tired hearing the LSA reiterate, before every meal service, what community seating is and why everyone, no matter who they are, needs to participate as I do hearing the repetitive conductor announcements about the necessity of wearing footwear while on board. (You're in a public space, shared with other members of the public---now act like it.)
While the derisive comments about the tour groups here may seem snobbish or an example of the very thing they criticize, I see them as expressions of frustration over the violation of the very spirit of egalitarianism I mentioned earlier. Yes, there are boors and insufferables in every segment of society, but the ones in the subject of this thread seem to be more noticeable when observed by those on the outside of the group, as well as enabled in their behavior by the company whose service they barely seem to be able to tolerate. This is what creates tensions as expressed in this and other threads and why some, myself included, would just as soon prefer that they receive their wish and be separated from the average traveler---be that the semi-retired couple taking the train to their cruise departure point or the of little means college student going to or from school.
seat38a
Engineer
To all of you who are bitching about Amtrak being "DEPRIVED" of revenue. Funny how your also the ones who ***** about the "HIGH COST" of Amtrak sleepers, will never take it again and can't afford to blah blah blah. I can hear Amtrak now, all giddy and getting their checkbook out to order new equipment with YOUR PROMISE to ride at the high bucket rate.
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