So far so good

[Radvlad]

On the EB. I have a great sleeping car attendant named Mary. She is SEA based and she is so attentive and funny. She is making this trip great. It's dark now so can't see anything but will be going to the diner at 7:15 so that will pass some time.

Everyone I've met has been really nice. The conductor has stopped and talked with me a couple of times. Now I see why you guys love Amtrak so much. This is really cool!

 

[SarahZ]

On the EB. I have a great sleeping car attendant named Mary. She is SEA based and she is so attentive and funny. She is making this trip great. It's dark now so can't see anything but will be going to the diner at 7:15 so that will pass some time.

Everyone I've met has been really nice. The conductor has stopped and talked with me a couple of times. Now I see why you guys love Amtrak so much. This is really cool!

I hope you have a great trip. You're going to love the scenery through Glacier National Park.

I noticed that on the 3-day trains, especially if everyone in your car is in for the long haul, it becomes sort of like summer camp if you have the right sleeper attendant. I lucked out with a couple of great attendants on the EB and CZ. They got everyone chatting about things like train travel, books, and where they were coming from or headed.

When you're stuck with people for that long, you either hermit it up or make some new friends. I got tired of being a hermit after a day or so and eventually came out of my shell. It was fun! I like roomettes because after I get tired of chatting, I can just say, "Well, I'm going to get back to my book," and hide again.

 

[Radvlad]

On the EB. I have a great sleeping car attendant named Mary. She is SEA based and she is so attentive and funny. She is making this trip great. It's dark now so can't see anything but will be going to the diner at 7:15 so that will pass some time.

Everyone I've met has been really nice. The conductor has stopped and talked with me a couple of times. Now I see why you guys love Amtrak so much. This is really cool!

I hope you have a great trip. You're going to love the scenery through Glacier National Park.

I noticed that on the 3-day trains, especially if everyone in your car is in for the long haul, it becomes sort of like summer camp if you have the right sleeper attendant. I lucked out with a couple of great attendants on the EB and CZ. They got everyone chatting about things like train travel, books, and where they were coming from or headed.

When you're stuck with people for that long, you either hermit it up or make some new friends. I got tired of being a hermit after a day or so and eventually came out of my shell. It was fun! I like roomettes because after I get tired of chatting, I can just say, "Well, I'm going to get back to my book," and hide again.

Good points.

 

[TraneMan]

Glad to hear you're enjoying the trip!

If you're on FB, share your great trip there as well.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AmtraksEmpireBuilder/

 

[Radvlad]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

It is based upon liability. Derailing a freight train is usually covered by insurance.

 

[Ronbo]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

It is based upon liability. Derailing a freight train is usually covered by insurance.

It is my understanding that once the tracks are cleared and freight trains are allowed, Amtrak can also go through with their trains and crew, but no passengers for the 48hr moratorium. Hence the bustitution. They have to be able to, for example, get the EB into Seattle for preparation for the next day. I doubt they can do that in Everett. If anyone knows better, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Radvlad]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

It is based upon liability. Derailing a freight train is usually covered by insurance.

It is my understanding that once the tracks are cleared and freight trains are allowed, Amtrak can also go through with their trains and crew, but no passengers for the 48hr moratorium. Hence the bustitution. They have to be able to, for example, get the EB into Seattle for preparation for the next day. I doubt they can do that in Everett. If anyone knows better, correct me if I am wrong.

Rondo I believe you are correct. The train and crew did indeed travel on to Seattle. The sleeper attendant told me that they have to do all the restocking and stuff in Seattle for this afternoons (my) return trip to Chicago. They are going to bus us to Everett. It's not that big of a deal, it's less than an hours drive and it's a nice bus. Amtrak credited 12 dollars to my cc for lack of sleeper until Everett. That's something they didn't have to really do so I appreciate the gesture.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

It is based upon liability. Derailing a freight train is usually covered by insurance.

What sort of liability are you referring to that wouldn't already be covered by the indemnity agreement?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

It is based upon liability. Derailing a freight train is usually covered by insurance.

What sort of liability are you referring to that wouldn't already be covered by the indemnity agreement?

The indemnity doesn't cover incidents of gross negligence or actions that are deemed criminal and you never know how things will play out in court if someone gets injured. Although Amtrak would likely cover the costs, there is something to be said for maintaining your reputation. When something goes wrong on your rails, you and your brand name are in the spotlight. Additionally, the FRA and NTSB really start poking around your operation when passengers or employees are killed.

Most hosts would like to avoid this which is why some hosts add restrictions to passengers trains that don't apply to freight. Although the FRA likes to posture, they seemingly don't come down as hard when a freight train derails and incinerates an entire county compared to if an employee or passenger is killed.

 

[neroden]

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

What DA said. There is no legal rationale for the arbitrary 48 hour rule. BNSF is quite capable of getting sued by its own engineers for endangering them, and the engineers would point to the 48-hour rule as proof that BNSF *KNEW* the line wasn't safe, and any jury in the world would rule in their favor.

(If BNSF then tried to argue in court that the 48-hour rule was not based on safety, WSDOT would turn around and ask for indemnification for the losses caused by cancelled trains.)

It's obvious that BNSF has a different motivation for their 48-hour rule, and DA is probably right about the motivation. Either that or they're just complete idiots over at BNSF management, which is perfectly likely; they did, after all, abandon the Woodinville Subdivision, which would have avoided all of this mudslide trouble (for freight anyway).

 

[CCC1007]

Could it be to drum up political support for shoring up the hills that are prone to sliding onto their track?

 

[neroden]

Could it be to drum up political support for shoring up the hills that are prone to sliding onto their track?

Sure, that's a possibility. Seems to have drummed up some political support already. Not enough. That track is just in the *wrong place*.

 

[CCC1007]

What year was that subdivision abandoned? If before 1995, don't blame BNSF, blame BN.

 

[PRR 60]

Two risk assessments:

1: a train with one or two employees, highly trained, with PPE, and with emergency egress immediately adjacent to their work location, or;

2: a train with maybe several hundred passengers, un-trained, no PPE, with varying and unknown physical and mobility capabilities, and within a car having limited egress points for evacuation.

Which train poses the higher risk of loss-of-life if a mudslide slides it into the Puget Sound? By what factor? 10x, 100x, maybe 1000x?

My only issue with the 48 hour passenger embargo is not that it is too long, but that it might be too short. Were I a civil engineer at BNSF dealing with that area with slopes known to be unstable at a given soil moisture content, I would not want to see passenger trains moving until I was convinced that the slopes had completely stabilized. That assurance might require soil testing, or maybe some instrumentation.

Given that meeting a requirement like that could take a lot more then 48 hours, I consider the existing embargo rule to be reasonable from the Amtrak perspective, and maybe un-conservative from a civil engineering and risk perspective.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Lol I jinxed the train. We are stuck outside Everett and once we get to the station we are being bused to Seattle because of a mud slide. BNSF won't allow any passenger trains for 48 hours. Buy I agree with the motto "Better safe than sorry." Crew has been terrific. Couldn't ask for a nicer group of people.

I'm glad you had a good trip but so far as I am aware BNSF's 48 hour rule isn't based on anything measurable or statistically relevant. All indications are that it's an arbitrary policy intended to keep Amtrak out of the way while BNSF catches up on previously delayed freight shipments. The fact that BNSF runs their own trains during the post-mudslide safety window makes it hard to believe that they truly consider the line to be unsafe.

It is based upon liability. Derailing a freight train is usually covered by insurance.

What sort of liability are you referring to that wouldn't already be covered by the indemnity agreement?

The indemnity doesn't cover incidents of gross negligence or actions that are deemed criminal...

Conventional liability insurance would not typically cover willful negligence or criminal misconduct either. Luckily for BNSF these are concepts that are difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt under current US law and carry dollar denominated penalties which grow weaker with every merger and every inflation adjustment. Which means in 2016 they're basically the cost of doing business. Civil penalties can sometimes involve large payouts but any civil judgements would simply be handed over for Amtrak to pay.

Although Amtrak would likely cover the costs, there is something to be said for maintaining your reputation. When something goes wrong on your rails, you and your brand name are in the spotlight. Additionally, the FRA and NTSB really start poking around your operation when passengers or employees are killed. Most hosts would like to avoid this which is why some hosts add restrictions to passengers trains that don't apply to freight. Although the FRA likes to posture, they seemingly don't come down as hard when a freight train derails and incinerates an entire county compared to if an employee or passenger is killed.

If recent history is any guide modern class one railroads have very little to fear from lethal passenger related events. Class one railroads are largely immune to and almost completely disconnected from passenger sentiment. They sign long term contracts with large direct customers and major consolidated shippers and are unlikely to be seriously impacted by a passenger related event. In the past when Amtrak has suffered lethal passenger accidents the goodwill repercussions for the freight host have been extremely limited. Most people don't have any clue which freight host was responsible for the tracks/signals/crossings for any given Amtrak fatality.

Two risk assessments:

1: a train with one or two employees, highly trained, with PPE, and with emergency egress immediately adjacent to their work location, or;

2: a train with maybe several hundred passengers, un-trained, no PPE, with varying and unknown physical and mobility capabilities, and within a car having limited egress points for evacuation. Which train poses the higher risk of loss-of-life if a mudslide slides it into the Puget Sound? By what factor? 10x, 100x, maybe 1000x?

How many train-derailing mudslides occurred in the 48 hours following the reopening of the track? That seems like a pretty obvious metric for evaluating the relevance of BNSF's claims.

My only issue with the 48 hour passenger embargo is not that it is too long, but that it might be too short. Were I a civil engineer at BNSF dealing with that area with slopes known to be unstable at a given soil moisture content, I would not want to see passenger trains moving until I was convinced that the slopes had completely stabilized. That assurance might require soil testing, or maybe some instrumentation. Given that meeting a requirement like that could take a lot more then 48 hours, I consider the existing embargo rule to be reasonable from the Amtrak perspective, and maybe un-conservative from a civil engineering and risk perspective.

Where do all these train passengers go after the track is closed to passenger traffic? Do they simply give up and stay home or do they climb into cars and buses with far higher mortality rates?

 

[neroden]

What year was that subdivision abandoned? If before 1995, don't blame BNSF, blame BN.

Two thousand and ***ing eight.

Repeat: 2008.

Look up "Woodinville Subdivision". BNSF was failing to maintain it by 1997 and started talking about selling it in 2003. Under Matt Rose no less. Stupid stupid stupid.

 

[CCC1007]

What year was that subdivision abandoned? If before 1995, don't blame BNSF, blame BN.

Two thousand and ***ing eight.

Repeat: 2008.

Look up "Woodinville Subdivision". BNSF was failing to maintain it by 1997 and started talking about selling it in 2003. Under Matt Rose no less. Stupid stupid stupid.

Dude, no need to swear. I just was wondering whether the actual problem was much earlier. Lighten up please, if not for us, then for your personal relationships.

 

[neroden]

Stupid, destructive stuff makes me mad. It's a characteristic which seems to be inborn; not a habit I am capable of changing. Yes, I've tried. So suck it up and deal. I know who my friends are by the fact that they get it and don't tell me to "lighten up".