Silver Star sleeper update

[I always rode the Southern]

A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.

I think somebody should make daily checks starting now for the 1 July 2015 to 31 Jan 2016 period to see when the Star roomette fare is more than that for the Meteor (on the same date)! Impossible? I don't think so.

So the fact that there is a difference in sleeper prices on future dates doesn't convince me of anything.

Sorry, didn't think I was trying to convince anybody of anything. Just stating some factual information about fare differences in the first paragraph and letting my mind wander in the second.

And my mind wandered again after supper and led me to sniff out roomette fares between NYP and MIA for both the Meteor and Star for every date from 1 July 2015 through 31 Jan 2016, inclusive. Star roomettes fluctuated between $310 and $375 while those on the Meteor went from $433 to $722. The lowest difference during that period was $93, the most common was $123 and the highest was $382. Roomettes on the Star were always the lesser of the two. Then on 1 Feb 2016 both were $375. Just facts. Nothing more. They're worth just what you paid for them.

No need to be sorry, I am. Didn't mean to imply it was you or anyone on the forum trying to convince me, rather that amtrak was not going to convince me that they were gonna give me such a great deal by taking the diner away.

 

[cirdan]

I hope the fact that there is no full dining service is being communicated well during booking, not that Amtrak ends up with dozens of frustrated and angry passengers on every train.

This is always going to be a problem when two trains of the class on the same route offer different facilities.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Could Amtrak be trying to use this 'test' - brought on by a lack of enough serviceable diners - to create angry passengers, which Amtrak can then use as ammunition at Congressional budget hearings on Amtrak's "wasteful spending" in the dining car?

Another thought: Its humorous that the train which is being used in this 'test' is one that goes through Rep. Mica's district. Just a coincidence? :unsure:

Just maybe Amtrak is hoping Mica will hear from his constituents about how unhappy they are with this new 'test' service (Which ironically takes the Star in more of a socialistic/communistic 'People's Train' direction ) compared to either the Meteor or the Auto Train? :giggle:

 

[neroden]

If the primary goal of the F&B system is to minimize spoilage to the exclusion of everything else then no matter what data they have this problem will not get solved.

Yeah, they could just carry no food -- no spoilage.

The primary goal has got to be to have food available for the customer when they want it. The spoilage thing then just becomes a balancing issue in balanced scorecard. You do not clubber your primary goal completely to meet a secondary tactical goal. Well, at least in the normal intelligent management world you don't.

Yeah. There seems to be something seriously wrong in F&B management at Amtrak. Grossly wrong.

Can someone do a quick cost analysis on what the revenue for a full sleeper needs to be to match the revenue of a full coach? First - a capacity vs rate comparison.

Paulus tried to do this a while back. On the numbers from a couple of year ago, sleepers are significantly more profitable than coaches on the Lake Shore Limited, slightly behind on the Cardinal, somewhat more behind on the Meteor and Crescent, and most behind on the Star.

Some routes command higher sleeper premiums than others. This might have implications for where to allocate sleeper cars (more to the LSL, fewer to the Star), and potential implications for how large a sleeper car order ought to be. But it doesn't really have implications for the existence of the cars on specific routes because of what Cirdan said...

I think you're assuming that if you abolished sleepers, that all those passengers would book coach instead and in doing so would generate more returns for Amtrak. They would pay less, sure, but they would also cause less costs and Amtrak would be better off for it.

In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.

I don't know whether a sleeper on #66/67 would be more or less profitable than a coach on #66/67, but I do know it would attract a different market who isn't currently riding the train. And I don't think you can fill *more* coaches on #66/67. So if adding a sleeper there can be incrementally profitable, there should be one. That's the principle.

 

[AlanB]

I hope the fact that there is no full dining service is being communicated well during booking, not that Amtrak ends up with dozens of frustrated and angry passengers on every train.

I'm certain that its not being properly communicated during booking. Most phone agents are probably doing so; but I'm sure that a few are not. And if one books online, unless one clicks the little red triangle next to the train's name, one will never know that there have been changes. Unless of course one Google's up sites like this one.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I hope the fact that there is no full dining service is being communicated well during booking, not that Amtrak ends up with dozens of frustrated and angry passengers on every train.

I'm certain that its not being properly communicated during booking. Most phone agents are probably doing so; but I'm sure that a few are not. And if one books online, unless one clicks the little red triangle next to the train's name, one will never know that there have been changes. Unless of course one Google's up sites like this one.

I agree. Though, when I booked my AGR southbound on the SM and the agent asked about a return train, I mentioned I was taking the SS and she told me about the lack of the diner on the SS. Of course, I told her I was already aware of that, but that was nice of her to let me know (in case I had not clicked on the triangle).

 

[I always rode the Southern]

Could Amtrak be trying to use this 'test' - brought on by a lack of enough serviceable diners - to create angry passengers, which Amtrak can then use as ammunition at Congressional budget hearings on Amtrak's "wasteful spending" in the dining car?

Another thought: Its humorous that the train which is being used in this 'test' is one that goes through Rep. Mica's district. Just a coincidence? :unsure:

Just maybe Amtrak is hoping Mica will hear from his constituents about how unhappy they are with this new 'test' service (Which ironically takes the Star in more of a socialistic/communistic 'People's Train' direction ) compared to either the Meteor or the Auto Train? :giggle:

Those of us from the Tampa Bay area, which isn't in Mica's district, are the one's most affected by this. A huge number of people board/detrain the star in Tampa. Not so many in Mica's district. Beside's this is Florida, elected scott twice, so this will be sold as Pres. Obama's fault. :huh:

 

[cirdan]

Those of us from the Tampa Bay area, which isn't in Mica's district, are the one's most affected by this. A huge number of people board/detrain the star in Tampa. Not so many in Mica's district. Beside's this is Florida, elected scott twice, so this will be sold as Pres. Obama's fault. :huh:

... but if they say it's Obama's fault, that is implying that if they were in power, they would do better.

That sort of "promise" can come back to bite them.

 

[Paulus]

Just a few thoughts:

1) F&B line on the Silver Star will, of course, see a significant drop in revenue from the lack of sleeper transfers, but expenses should drop more due to significantly fewer crew.

2) Sleeper line revenue will increase significantly (though this may not be apparent in the monthly performance reports). There's no actual reduction to the sleeper accommodation revenue since the cuts are basically what would've been transferred anyhow while the lower fares should help increase occupancy and turnover (from those using it as a super business class for instance). Additionally, there should be 4-5 roomettes per train previously used for diner crew that are now available to be sold. That's probably about $150,000 over the course of the trial (including the effects of discounts).

3) For all the complaining, it's clear from NARP's ridership statistics that a supermajority of those traveling any given segment, including the full length of the Silver Star, are coach riders and they are likely already relying on the café car for their meals. For most existing passengers there will be no noticeable downgrade of service but only a more affordable and accessible upgrade possibility.

 

[Rail Freak]

(Adding to Paulus) ... and creating more demand for sleepers on the Meteor. More Demand = Higher Fares = Higher Revenue!!!

 

[neroden]

The real question is how many riders will simply disappear. Probably the majority of the Tampa-NEC market will vanish (coach & sleeper) and that's about 11400 passengers per years, so call it a loss of 5700 passengers per year. It should be a significantly larger drop in revenue.

We won't see all of the drop in the first year, due to once-a-year travellers who will cancel *next year's* trip. So you can't tell how much damage is done until September 2016.

Non-Tampa long-distance riders will simply switch to the Meteor, so we should see some revenue shifts there.

The loss of riders could be largely alleviated, perhaps even totally eliminated, if the cafe car is managed properly and doesn't run out of anything. Unfortunately, given Amtrak's past record on cafe car management, I expect the cafe car to be routinely running out of food hundreds of miles before Tampa southbound, and probably before DC northbound. This is why I describe this as "designed to fail".

Paulus, you keep forgetting that coach passengers do use the dining car. Less so over the years as Amtrak gets stupider and stupider about mismanagement of the dining cars, but they do, and frankly the dining car should be designed to be attractive to them.

We've been through this before. It was a revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1990s. It was a worse revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1980s. It will be just as much of a disaster this time. And frankly I think Amtrak intends it to be a disaster, because if they were making a serious attempt, they'd do something different.

I'm all for a real attempt at a different food service model, but that would involve something other than the same old undersupplied cafe. And Amtrak has made it very clear that that's not what's happening.

----

It's interesting to note that Tampa was losing ridership in 2013 and 2014 already -- 2012 was the peak. Same with Lakeland. Orlando and Miami peaked back in 2011. I think people have been attributing this to the SunRail disruptions, mostly?

 

[MikefromCrete]

Of course the whole diner off the Star is designed to fail. Just like every other food service effort ordered by Congress has failed. Eventually Mica and his fellow House Republicans will get it their heads that they shouldn't micromanage Amtrak. ON second thought, that will never happen, but in a year or two the diner (one of the new CAF-built ones) will back on the Star and everybody here can just relax.

By the way, I don't think the Tampa market will disappear because of a change in food services. People who want to ride the train will continue to do so. Everybody else will fly or drive. There's a certain audience for LD train travel and it will hold. It just won't get much bigger despite the hopes of many AUers.

 

[Rail Freak]

I really dont have the knowledge/experience to make a case, one way or another. But my home station is STP (St Pete) & I've taken that damn bus to Orlando too many times ( I-4 is a Mad-House)! I'm in the "No Sleeper Diner, No Ride Group! We can discuss this "Til The Cows Come Home" but the decision is up to Boardman & Crew. I wish them the best

 

[ABQFloridian]

For all the complaining, it's clear from NARP's ridership statistics that a supermajority of those traveling any given segment, including the full length of the Silver Star, are coach riders and they are likely already relying on the café car for their meals. For most existing passengers there will be no noticeable downgrade of service but only a more affordable and accessible upgrade possibility.

Does the NARP have datat suggesting that coach passengers don't use the diner? When I ride coach, I always eat at least one meal in the diner. It is one of the biggest draws for me, being able to have a decent meal on the way.

I have talked to other coach passengers who say they won't eat in the diner, but they mostly won't eat in the cafe either, because they find both to be overpriced, and particularly so in light if the quality of selections.

I just find it hard to accept that coach ridership won't be affected. Without meals available, I would see planes or busses becoming a more attractive option for short/long hauls respectively for some coach passengers.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I was waiting on someone to suggest combing the Meteor and Star and running a longer train to MIA like in the golden days of passenger rail!

Thruway buses could do the ORL-TPA route like they do now for the Meteor and the combined train could have up to say 6 Sleepers and Coaches with Two Diners and two Cafe/Lounges ( one unstaffed) like the Auto- Train used to

Have.

Supply and demand would determine the consist and staffing like the model Amtrak seems to be slowly adopting!

Hopefully our Floridian friends and those who ride the Silver Trains, especially the Star won't flame me!

 

[Ryan]

What would you do through the Carolinas where they use different routes and serve difference cities?

 

[Bob Dylan]

What would you do through the Carolinas where they use different routes and serve difference cities?

Good point Ryan, I' m always asleep on the Silvers and usually don't wake up to Savanah on the Southbounds!
Perhaps the combined train could run the Meteor Route if Amtrak didn't want to run an All Coach Star to Tampa on an opposite schedule!

And of course that would mess up Point runs for our Floridian AUers, and turns in Orlando like the Mini- Gathering a few years ago by some East Coast foamers!

 

[ABQFloridian]

Thruway buses could do the ORL-TPA route like they do now for the Meteor and the combined train could have up to say 6 Sleepers and Coaches with Two Diners and two Cafe/Lounges ( one unstaffed) like the Auto- Train used to

Have.

...

Hopefully our Floridian friends and those who ride the Silver Trains, especially the Star won't flame me!

I would be almost fine with this, however there are 2 and a half million people in the Tampa Bay metropolitan area, plus a couple hundred thousand around Lakeland. Leaving those markets with only thruway is a huge mistake.

That said, I would find such service adequate if it were to follow the Star's route through Florida, turning around in Tampa. This would only add a couple hours to the schedule, which is no big deal because most passengers aren't going to an endpoint anyway, and besides, TPA, with one train, handles more passengers than MIA, with two trains.

 

[jis]

Why would anyone want to halve the intra-Florida service choice in their right mind completely beats me. But whatever....

 

[ABQFloridian]

Why would anyone want to halve the intra-Florida service choice in their right mind completely beats me. But whatever....

Absolutely. They really need more service, particularly daily service through the panhandle (Sunset East) and something like the 1994 Silver Palm that followed the Seabord line (Gainesville/Ocala, like I-75) and stopped in Tampa.

Then, at least you'd be able to get around FL.

My point is just that if you were going to cut, you would really be foolish to cut Tampa out entirely.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Why would anyone want to halve the intra-Florida service choice in their right mind completely beats me. But whatever....

Mea culpa! As Rosanadana ( Gilda Radner) used to say on SNL: " Never mind!"

 

[jis]

Replacing two distinct trains by one removes schedule choice and is usually a bs idea.

 

[Paulus]

Paulus, you keep forgetting that coach passengers do use the dining car. Less so over the years as Amtrak gets stupider and stupider about mismanagement of the dining cars, but they do, and frankly the dining car should be designed to be attractive to them.

We've been through this before. It was a revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1990s. It was a worse revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1980s. It will be just as much of a disaster this time. And frankly I think Amtrak intends it to be a disaster, because if they were making a serious attempt, they'd do something different.

Some use the diner, but to be frank, it can't be overly many of them and the data that we do have suggests that those that do don't spend very much. Seriously, here's how it boils down: For every sleeper passenger riding 1400+ miles on the Star, there are 3.5 coach passengers making that same trip. Or, if you could fill a Viewliner with those sleepers, you could fill 1.8 Amfleets with their coach counterparts. I don't think I'm mistaken in suggesting that the current diner makeup doesn't represent the actual train makeup for similar length trips, even discounting the shorter length coach trips.

 

[Ryan]

Replacing two distinct trains by one removes schedule choice and is usually a bs idea.

Generally speaking, "less" is not the right answer. More frequencies, more choices, more redundancy. The overhead is all there, spread it out among more trains and we'll be in much better shape.

 

[Train2104]

Mileage chart