Silver Service Schedule

[cuppb001]

I am an avid Amtrak rider and have logged a many of miles on both the Star and the Meteor. What dawned on me my last trip was though why do the two trains run so close together. For example, the majority of the Florida stops are served by both the Star and the Meteor. The trains depart and arrive within a few hours of each other. As a result you end up with 2 southbound trains in the morning and 2 northbound trains in the evening. Is there a reason that its scheduled that way to have two redundant services? And yes I am aware that once they hit Savannah then they both take a different route and serve different stations.

 

[the_traveler]

Much of the reason is the end points. The trains are timed so they depart and arrive at "respectable" hours. Not many want to catch a train in NYP at 2 am, PHL at 3:30 am, MIA at midnight or ORL at 4 am! True, stations in between have bad calling times, but those cities are where many passengers travel to or from.

 

[VentureForth]

I believe it is to have favorable slots in and out of MIA and NYP. This is irritating to many of us in the middle of the route (ie: Savannah) where neither train is really favorable, though the Meteor isn't TOO bad.

As a frequent rider, I'm sure you're aware of this, but this is for those who aren't:

The Star takes nearly 4 1/2 hours longer to complete the route. It leaves 3 1/2 hours later than the Meteor out of MIA and gets to NYP 8 hours later. I don't quite understand why the Star leaves MIA after the Meteor. From NYP to MIA, the Star leaves around 4 hours earlier and arrives about 1 hour before the Meteor. Total trip time is about 27 1/2 hours for the Meteor and 31 1/2 hours for the Star. This makes the Meteor sort of an "express" Silver Service. With the exception of the stop in Jesup, the Star serves all the same stations as the Meteor and plus some. I beleive this is also why the Star has one less coach and sleeper and they are not sold out as often and their ticket prices are generally cheaper.

All I can figure is that "big" stations like MIA, ORL, JAX, WAS & NYP want nice calling times.

If I were king for a day, I would try the following: Switch the Star's departure times with the Meteor's then change the schedule from PM to AM. This would have the Star leaving NYP at 11 PM, arriving DC at 3 AM, Jax at 7 PM, Orlando at 10 PM and Miami at 6 AM. It'd be real cool to get to Miami early in the moring. On the return, it would leave MIA at 8 PM, hit TPA at 1:50 AM, ORL at 4 AM, Jax at 7:30 AM, DC at Midnight, and NYP at 4 AM. Switch Jesup from the Meteor to the Star

You know, I don't think that the majority of the people who ride these train would like that sorta schedule. I suppose that's why it is what it is.

 

[cuppb001]

VentureForth. That is exactly what I am thinking schedule wise. I live in Valdosta and typically travel out of JAX, JSP, SAV. People may not like the ugly times in some of the big cities but if thats the case dont take that train. It would just be better to have that option available. And it dosnt requre aditional frequencies or equipment.

 

[chrsjrcj]

^^ A Tampa arrival at 1:50 am would be disastrous. It makes up like 50% of the Star's ridership, and completely ruins the S. Florida-Tampa market.

 

[cuppb001]

Tampa in a perfect world would benefit greatly from an increase in service. Everytime I have traveled in and out of Tampa it is always a very popular/crowded stop. Granted that could be because of the Stars excellent service times. 12:30pm and 5:00pm. People in Tampa see the Star and know that a train exists.

 

[xyzzy]

The Star and the Meteor serve slightly different markets. A large proportion of the Star's coach ridership is on the north end (between NY and Cary, NC) or the south end (between Jacksonville and Miami). The Star's coaches tend to empty out in between, although the Star does provide the only Amtrak service to five stations along that route (Southern Pines and Hamlet in NC; Camden, Columbia, and Denmark in SC). The Meteor tends to carry coach passengers taking longer journeys.

I will add that the Star also carries passengers who connect from NC's intrastate service (Charlotte, Greensboro, etc) to Florida.

From Savannah north and Cary north, the Carolinian and Palmetto provide a daytime alternative. There is an expectation that when Amtrak receives new cars, the Palmetto will be re-extended into Florida (perhaps under the name Silver Palm again).

Another factor in scheduling is to keep 91/92 and 79/80 out of each other's way because some busy stations like Raleigh can accommodate only one train a a time. Also, given that some sections of the CSX A-line and ex-RF&P are frequently congested, the current schedule is arguably an optimum one until money is spent to relieve bottlenecks.

On the NEC, it's not just a matter of schedule convenience but timeslots as well.

 

[Guest]

Isn't at least some of the Silver Service scheduling, to allow (well timed) connections at WAS?

Also, I have to wonder just how much of the schedule is driven by cruise ship arrival/departure times in MIA. How much of Amtrak's business on these routes, is in support of people going on a cruise?

 

[cuppb001]

On the trip I took this past weekend for NTD while eating dinner on the 92 the couple I ate with just returned from a cruise out of Ft. Lauderdale. Their hotel picked them up from the train station and even took them to the cruise port. Everything worked out for them like a charm.

 

[VentureForth]

Isn't at least some of the Silver Service scheduling, to allow (well timed) connections at WAS?
Also, I have to wonder just how much of the schedule is driven by cruise ship arrival/departure times in MIA. How much of Amtrak's business on these routes, is in support of people going on a cruise?

For WAS, yes. But the alternative suggestion would be that those needing that connection could take the other Silver - unless they lived in the 5 aforementioned towns not served by the Meteor. Unfortunately for the schedule, Tampa just happens to be a HUGE point for ridership on the Star - whether between TPA and MIA or TPA and WAS or NYP.

As for the timing for cruises, no. Both trains arrive in Miami after the ships generally depart (Both arrive after 6 PM and last boarding call for a 4 PM departure is usually around 2-3 PM). No way on an arrival to catch the Northbound trains. If you're REALLY lucky, there's a slight chance of catching the Star (11:50 A dep) but highly unlikely. Tampa, Jacksonville, and Fort Lauderdale have slightly better chances. But if they were to timed to a cruise port, it would probably be Miami.

 

[OBS]

I thought the schedules currently in effect had something to do with a request from CSX in return for CSX pledging to improve their OTP numbers.

 

[fairviewroad]

This is irritating to many of us in the middle of the route (ie: Savannah) where neither train is really favorable, though the Meteor isn't TOO bad.

Cry me a river.

I'd say SAV has an embarrassment of riches compared to most stations on LD routes. Southbound to FL you have a nice

morning departure of 6:50 a.m. and northbound to NYC you have a comfortable evening departure of 7:38 p.m.

And that's in addition to the daytime trains 89/90 from the NEC.

If you were writing from Columbia, SC (or Fargo or Cincinnati or Salt Lake City etc) then you might get a sympathetic

ear.

 

[VentureForth]

True that. or is it Tru dat!

Anyway, yes. I have little to complain about. The Palmetto with a full-day run is also nice.

Back to why the schedule is what it is - keep in mind that they like to keep traffic off of the NEC at night. With the exception of 66/67 and a couple of freights, they want the ROW empty to perform scheduled maintenance.

 

[jis]

At least in New Jersey, all that happens at night is that raffic becomes exceptionally light on the NEC, but it seldom goes to zero. NJT has a departure gap from both end of about 3 hours. However, the gap between the last arrival and the first departure from each end is less than 30 mins.

The last Amtrak NEC departure from NYP before 67 is close to midnight. The last NEC arrival into New York from the south before 66 is a little after midnith, less than 2 hours before 66.

Last NJT arrival into NYP is at 2:45am or therebouts, which is way after 66's arrival in NYP.

And of course there is always the late Cardinal to keep things lively in the iddle of the night too.

Metro North is similar up north.

I am sure south of Trenton things get much quieter than north of it.

I predict that in another year or two that gape between last and first departure will be reduced by at least an hour.

So I doubt that adding one more train to transit the NEC at night will break the bank, should such a need arise.

 

[xyzzy]

The NEC is rarely shut down entirely. I think the question is better framed as: how many trains can the NEC accommodate in the middle of the night, when one or more tracks are taken out of service? In a few spots this reduces the NEC to single-track operation. The answer is almost always "one more train" but eventually you get to a point where problems in the middle of the night carry over into the dawn hours. Whether or not Amtrak is already at that point in the middle of the night, I can't say.

 

[pennyk]

I like the Silver schedules. They are very convenient to those of us who live in Orlando.

 

[cuppb001]

Penny I find the current schedules wonderful too. But what if you could leave Orlando in the morning and head to Jax and spend the day there at the zoo, river walk, etc and come back all in the same day/same evening. I know with the current schedule of the Star I can do just that in Tampa. With the Meteor I can leave from Jesup and spend the night with a friend in Sav and return the next morning. What if someone in Tampa wanted to take the train to Orlando for the day. They cant without an overnight stay.

Maybe the point Ive been trying to make is that it would be great that instead of two one-way departures in the morning and evening there would be one two-way departures each morning and evening.

Yes I know that both Jesup and Tampa are served by one train I was just trying to make an example.

 

[fairviewroad]

Penny I find the current schedules wonderful too. But what if you could leave Orlando in the morning and head to Jax and spend the day there at the zoo, river walk, etc and come back all in the same day/same evening. I know with the current schedule of the Star I can do just that in Tampa. With the Meteor I can leave from Jesup and spend the night with a friend in Sav and return the next morning. What if someone in Tampa wanted to take the train to Orlando for the day. They cant without an overnight stay.

What you are doing is making a case for short-haul corridor-type service. But it's not a very good case for overhauling a long-distance train schedule. A long-distance train that would hit the major cities along the NEC in the overnight hours is simply a non-starter. It has nothing to do with whether the NEC can handle it from a logistical standpoint, or what CSX wants, etc. Amtrak shouldn't alienate high-value, long-haul sleeping car passengers in favor of

picking up some $30 day-trip fares in Florida. Now, should there be more intra-Florida service? Of course, but not at the expense of the Silvers.

 

[cuppb001]

Fairviewroad. When you put it in that perspective I can understand your point. Future intra-Flordia service though? I wish but do not see that happening with CSX's negative views on passenger rail and the loss of the S-Line. Before the Palmetto/Silve Palm was truncated, Amtrak offered a really cheap rail pass only to Flordia residents and only available for travel within Florida. Sadly that was discontinued. Tampa seeing expanded service in the future? Doubt that too since its a stub station and back-up moves are always frowned upon. The Star was likely grandfathered in.

 

[afigg]

Fairviewroad. When you put it in that perspective I can understand your point. Future intra-Flordia service though? I wish but do not see that happening with CSX's negative views on passenger rail and the loss of the S-Line. Before the Palmetto/Silve Palm was truncated, Amtrak offered a really cheap rail pass only to Flordia residents and only available for travel within Florida. Sadly that was discontinued. Tampa seeing expanded service in the future? Doubt that too since its a stub station and back-up moves are always frowned upon. The Star was likely grandfathered in.

If All Aboard Florida succeeds in building and running a Miami to Orlando service, extending the route from Orlando to Tampa would be a logical extension. Likely AAF would use the route of the planned HSR corridor. The AAF service from Orlando airport to Miami will cut into Amtrak intra-state travel business. Some in Tampa may take a bus to Orlando airport and get on AAF to Miami or WPB. Same for those going Amtrak Orlando to Miami. But more people traveling by train in FL should result in a larger customer base for longer range trips on the Silvers.

With regards to the schedule, there should be some trip time reductions over the next few years as various improvements along the routes are completed. New baggage cars allowing 125 mph on the NEC. Third track project Arkendale to Powell;s creek. Virginia funded track improvements down through Petersburg for the Norfolk service. The HSIPR funded $25 million of new crossovers in VA and NC. Sunrail commuter project upgrading 61 miles of tracks in central FL. But schedule adjustments would probably be done mostly on the northern end of the routes.

 

[xyzzy]

The HSIPR funded $25 million of new crossovers in VA and NC.

All of them are in NC, I believe. The CSX mileposts are A86.4 (Weldon), A101.0 (Enfield), and A115.9 (Armstrong). These lie between Rocky Mount and the VA border. It's an area transitted by Amtrak 79, 80, 89, 90, and 92 plus freights within a five-hour window.

 

[gordonlee]

Thanks afigg. I was just about to write that everyone seems to be forgetting the Florida East Coast service scheduled to start soon between Miami - Ft. Lauderdale - West Palm Beach and Orlando (and perhaps over to Tampa and also up to Jacksonville).

I certainly intend to give it a try from Miami to Orlando once it is up and running. I've taken Amtrak Miami - New York many (many times) and also Miami - Tampa and think the schedule is very good for those of us in South Florida.

 

[MrMattyMatt]

What is this new Florida East Coast service and where can I find out more about it?

 

[VentureForth]

Penny I find the current schedules wonderful too. But what if you could leave Orlando in the morning and head to Jax and spend the day there at the zoo, river walk, etc and come back all in the same day/same evening. I know with the current schedule of the Star I can do just that in Tampa. With the Meteor I can leave from Jesup and spend the night with a friend in Sav and return the next morning. What if someone in Tampa wanted to take the train to Orlando for the day. They cant without an overnight stay.
Maybe the point Ive been trying to make is that it would be great that instead of two one-way departures in the morning and evening there would be one two-way departures each morning and evening.

Yes I know that both Jesup and Tampa are served by one train I was just trying to make an example.

Actually, the Meteor serves Jesup and the Star serves Tampa. You can't get to Tampa from Jesup without changing trains or taking a bus.

What is this new Florida East Coast service and where can I find out more about it?

It's called All Aboard Florida - a private venture by the Florida East Coast Railroad to connect Miami to Orlando via Cocoa Beach. Should start service in 2015. They are pushing for "higher" speed rail - probably around 110 MPH. But they are currently struggling with the Mormon church which owns 600,000 acres that butts up against where they want to lay new track between Orlando and Cocoa. Church wants an environmental impact study which could delay the project by years - or some $$$.

 

[xyzzy]

And when Amtrak was operating the Palmetto/Silver Palm south of Savannah, it didn't stop at Jesup.

By the way, Greyhound doesn't serve Jesup. Closest the hound gets is Brunswick or Savannah. So the only option is train to Orlando and a thruway bus to Tampa.