Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[Anderson]

Can someone please explain to me why, when SP sold CA the slots needed to add in the Daylight back in the 70s,

UP is able to demand a stack of improvements to run the Daylight? ...

That agreement expired. Per 2000 California state rail planning for the Daylight:

Amtrak currently operates the Coast Starlight over the UP Coast Line ...

It's possible that is just got sidelined during the electricity crisis and Arnold's term as governor.

[SIZE=12pt]"The purpose of this document is to outline an implementation plan [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]for the Coast Daylight. Start-up is scheduled for late 2001."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Damn. Reading those old historical documents can be so depressing.[/SIZE]

I'm inclined to file this as a Warrington-era botch. The timing is just right for it to have somehow gotten wrapped up in the meltdown of the Network Expansion Plans.

 

[Paulus]

I do recall it was in a Capitol Corridor Business plan to extend train service south to Salinas. That is a Capitol Corridor project, however the main concern was also UP's concern regarding increasing service between San Jose and Salinas. If anything, it would be nice to branch the gap between San Jose and San Luis Obispo with another train connection as mentioned. The buses allow for options, however a train to train connection (if not a thru-train) would be nice.

The Capitol Corridor Business plan also included extending a trip east to Reno, however that also came under huge opposition by UP. Expansion of Service to Roseville and building a yard facility in Sacramento east of the current station are more realistic projects in the short-term unless UP changes its mind.

This just came up in another thread in a broader context, but what CA really needs to do, IMHO, is to find a way to buy out the Coast Line from San Jose to Moorpark. Yes, I know this would probably be "not cheap", but between this, commuter service to Salinas, UP's relatively light use of the line, and the fact that the state could presumably do a lot to help out UP over with Tehachapi (where the real bottleneck is) this seems like a worthwhile endeavor.

California already has grants for BNSF to make improvements to Tehachapi and buying the Coast Line is too expensive to be worth it, especially with HSR coming down the line (and since UP is starkly opposed to it). The same amount of money would be better used to build extra capacity for frequent service Sacramento-Redding or Los Angeles-Indio.

 

[neroden]

I've said this before, but the really smart thing for the state to do would be to come up with $120 bn. and buy Union Pacific out in a tender offer. Eliminates a lot of problems and provides some cash flow for the treasury. Requires thinking big though -- and if they were thinking big, they would already have started a state Bank of California (which would have even more advantages).

(It's not actually that strange for one province of a country to own railway lines which extend through other provinces.)

 

[Paulus]

I've said this before, but the really smart thing for the state to do would be to come up with $120 bn. and buy Union Pacific out in a tender offer. Eliminates a lot of problems and provides some cash flow for the treasury. Requires thinking big though -- and if they were thinking big, they would already have started a state Bank of California (which would have even more advantages).

(It's not actually that strange for one province of a country to own railway lines which extend through other provinces.)

The required referendum would never pass and, quite frankly, it's stupid for the state to do that just for the Coast Line and some marginal ROW issues with HSR. Would require Federal approval as well (via the STB) which I doubt would be forthcoming. A more realistic option is for California to talk to Amtrak about going back to basically A-Day and truncating the Starlight at Emeryville while the state takes over control of the Daylight between LA and Oakland. No increase in frequencies, but better scheduling for the state and lowered costs for Amtrak.

 

[neroden]

Frankly, California has had fights with recalcitrant "freight railroads" for 100 years, dating back to the period when SP owned the state government. Railroad nationalization is grossly overdue. We won't see it from the feds, so it's up to the states, and California is the biggest.

Or we can just keep sinking into underdeveloped-country status. Seems like the path most in this country have chosen. Really, why try to improve the country, when we can instead aim to bring our situation down to that of Mexico? (That'll stop illegal immigration!)

 

[Anderson]

I've said this before, but the really smart thing for the state to do would be to come up with $120 bn. and buy Union Pacific out in a tender offer. Eliminates a lot of problems and provides some cash flow for the treasury. Requires thinking big though -- and if they were thinking big, they would already have started a state Bank of California (which would have even more advantages).

(It's not actually that strange for one province of a country to own railway lines which extend through other provinces.)

The required referendum would never pass and, quite frankly, it's stupid for the state to do that just for the Coast Line and some marginal ROW issues with HSR. Would require Federal approval as well (via the STB) which I doubt would be forthcoming. A more realistic option is for California to talk to Amtrak about going back to basically A-Day and truncating the Starlight at Emeryville while the state takes over control of the Daylight between LA and Oakland. No increase in frequencies, but better scheduling for the state and lowered costs for Amtrak.

Ok, let's assume that the state would need to put $120bn up to pull that off. They'd net about $5bn in current assets against the $120bn, and about $5bn/yr in profits (or $10bn/yr in EBITDA; determining how to factor in depreciation of ROWs versus operating profits). Or, if you go over to the cash flow chart, you've got $3.3bn in free cash flow plus $1.3bn in dividends and $2.2bn in stock repurchases (for a total of $6.8-6.9bn/yr) to offset the cost. Basically, you'd get a bit more than 5% on your investment if nothing changes.

Of course, if the state did that what they would probably do is strip certain assets off for public use (access rights, etc.) at a nominal cost and keep the rest of the company at arm's length. Assuming a minimal effect on the company's operations you could probably justify writing off a few billion dollars of the cost as being recouped there, and possibly more by some favorable deals with other states (i.e. LA-Vegas, commuter tracks around Denver or Chicago, etc.).

 

[Paulus]

Frankly, California has had fights with recalcitrant "freight railroads" for 100 years, dating back to the period when SP owned the state government. Railroad nationalization is grossly overdue. We won't see it from the feds, so it's up to the states, and California is the biggest.

And it's a simple political reality that you aren't going to get California voters to agree to a $120 billion buyout of Union Pacific and that's without the fact that there's going to be a massive push by industry, rail and non-rail, against such a ballot measure.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Or the state retirement board just buys the railroad a 5% return is pretty good.

No idea if CA is set up like NY, but if NY want to invest in only railroad stock, why not buy the local guy?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

A corporate raider might look at this and say, "$120 Billion is

too much money for me to do alone." And go looking for partners.

Often acquisitions pencil out because the parts are worth more

than the whole thing. So sell one Transcon to NS and the other

to CSX. Or to CN or CP or Kansas City Southern for all i care.

(Assuming regulators will allow such a thing. But I'm scratching

my head to think the last time a big BIG transportation merger

was blocked for anti-trust reasons. LOL.) Maybe Oregon would

buy tracks south of Portland. Nevada or a bunch of casino owners

could take L.A.-Vegas or even L.A.-Vegas,Denver. In the end,

California would own the UP lines in the state for, oh, let's guess

$20 Billion, not $120.

Again, thinking like a raider, if you announce a takeover attempt,

the target will often bargain off a piece of itself to save the rest.

So maybe UP would stay otherwise intact but under such duress

agree to sell off the California routes for $20 Billion or much less.

It's really not impossible to imagine Cali doing the damn thing.

 

[Paulus]

Major telecom mergers have been blocked recently and the STB put a moratorium on Class I mergers in the late 90s. And again: the bond measures to pay for UP's purchase, or even large chunks thereof, require approval in a statewide election, an election that would almost certainly be lost.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Major telecom mergers have been blocked recently ...

"the last time a big BIG transportation merger

was blocked for anti-trust reasons"

You are saying that telecoms are "transportation"?

I'd say, telecom mergers have been blocked since

the horses all left the barn. AT&T was broken up into

the Baby Bells; then Southwestern Bell merged most of

them -- and the rump parent -- into a reconstituted AT&T.

"The STB put a moratorium on Class I mergers in the late 90s."

And Canadian Pacific floated a plan to merge with CSX just

last month. CSX was "cool" to the idea, and there were "concerns

about regulators", despite the former chair of the STB serving

on the CP Board of Directors. So the plan was dropped -- for now.

But really. Our government won't break up "too big to fail" banks,

or punish the bankers at HSBC involved in trading with Iran in

violation of the embargo. So I don't expect the toothless bunch

of government regulators to get in the way of a big deal. No, I don't.

Sweet of you to think they would.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

A corporate raider might look at this and say, "$120 Billion is

too much money for me to do alone." And go looking for partners.

It's really not impossible to imagine Cali doing the damn thing.

Actually, of course, California doesn't have to do it.

Let the raider do it. With financial backing from Cali --

and the understanding that Cali would get the pieces

it wants when the deal is done.

 

[Paulus]

How are they supposed to get financial backing from California? The state constitution requires a two-thirds approval by the Legislature and voter approval for any debt over $300,000.

Actually, scratch that. It's also a violation of the state constitution for the Legislature to approve any money to benefit a company not under 100% state control (unless they're chipping in alongside Federal funds apparently).

 

[afigg]

Actually, of course, California doesn't have to do it. Let the raider do it. With financial backing from Cali --

and the understanding that Cali would get the pieces it wants when the deal is done.

The odds of the Governor and state legislature of California would try to or work with a corporate raider on a hostile takeover or buyout of UP is as close to zero as it gets. And what does the UP takeover idea have to do with the order for, contract, construction, delivery, additional orders of the Nippon-Sharyo bi-level cars? Nothing. Getting more than a little off-topic here.

 

[jis]

Yeah sometimes it seems like people are using very high quality stuff beyond anything that is legal even in California

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... It's also a violation of the state constitution for the Legislature to approve any money to benefit a company not under 100% state control ...

It's a violation of the state constitution for the enormous retirement fund to buy stock, say, UP?

Wikipedia says that "CalPERS has used its influence as one of the largest shareholders in the world to change the way certain things are done in business."

Actually, merely musing aloud about taking aggressive action against UP might be enuff to make the company improve its attitude. Of course, if UP's defenders rush to allege that nothing could be done or should be done, then UP can continue business as usual. So thanks, fellas. LOL.

I didn't take this thread off-topic. I only commented on posts before mine. But I'm quite ready to move on.

 

[MikefromCrete]

... It's also a violation of the state constitution for the Legislature to approve any money to benefit a company not under 100% state control ...

It's a violation of the state constitution for the enormous retirement fund to buy stock, say, UP?

Wikipedia says that "CalPERS has used its influence as one of the largest shareholders in the world to change the way certain things are done in business."

Actually, merely musing aloud about taking aggressive action against UP might be enuff to make the company improve its attitude. Of course, if UP's defenders rush to allege that nothing could be done or should be done, then UP can continue business as usual. So thanks, fellas. LOL.

I didn't take this thread off-topic. I only commented on posts before mine. But I'm quite ready to move on.

Compared to NS, CSX, BNSF and CN, UP is running a first class operation handling passenger trains. Getting voters to approve a take over of UP in California is the silliest thing I have ever read on Amtrak Unlimited.

 

[jis]

I agree. But them is what provides the entertainment and the need for popcorn and peanuts

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Anderson]

*sighs*
At least in my experience, NS has done a good job handling Amtrak so long as they haven't also fouled themselves up (which is what happened with the Cap's situation). CSX is another story, however...

 

[jis]

Except that of late CSX seems to be doing a relatively good job of supporting Amtrak's Atlantic Coast Service of all colors.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Anderson]

Except that of late CSX seems to be doing a relatively good job of supporting Amtrak's Atlantic Coast Service of all colors.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

True, though there's a legacy of Regionals getting held up (endpoint OTP is likely helped by good handling from WAS north as well as padding). CSX also has borderline obscene delays on the Empire Corridor...basically, the Silver Service gets good handling and nobody else does (though at least in the case of the Auto Train, most of those delays seem to be built in).

 

[jis]

Auto Train appears to be about an hour slower than it used to be under private operation. So while there is some additional delay built in, does not seem to be a major degradation since its inception pre-Amtrak.

In general both CSX and NS do a much better job running the trackage they did not acquire from Conrail. They are yet to figure out how to operate the stuff they got from Conrail properly. There are exceptions. The Oak Island - Reading to Pittsburgh line for one. But as soon as you go past Pittsburgh things start falling apart.

 

[neroden]

In general both CSX and NS do a much better job running the trackage they did not acquire from Conrail. They are yet to figure out how to operate the stuff they got from Conrail properly.

I'm willing to believe that CSX is trying to dispatch the Empire Corridor properly, but they did an appalling things with maintenance, allowing it to lapse into disrepair shortly after they bought the trackage from Conrail. From what I can tell, it's still not up to Conrail Quality standards yet.

Someone at CSX also needs to understand that they need to buy some snow-fighting equipment. Southern railroaders should never have been allowed to buy northern railroads, they don't understand the climate. Proposed new law: any CEO of a railroad operating in the snow belt *must live in the snow belt full time*. Forcing that idiot Ward to live in Rochester would probably be enough to get him to fix some of his stupider mistakes.

 

[Steve4031]

Another 12/31 ride on 301 from chi-stl on aging amfleet bc car with intermittent heat. Hopefully next year we will be on the bi-levels.

 

[afigg]

Another 12/31 ride on 301 from chi-stl on aging amfleet bc car with intermittent heat. Hopefully next year we will be on the bi-levels.

By end of 2015? Unlikely. The delivery and test schedule for the Nippon-Sharyo that was in a CA briefing some months ago called for the pilot cars (aka initial test units) to undergo testing from July 2015 through Jan 2016. The first bi-level cars probably will not enter revenue service until early to mid-2016.
As for the balky heating on the Amfleet BC car, that is a maintenance issue. The Amfleet cars, despite the years and mileage on them, are holding up quite well.