Scathing Editorial in Today's Wash Post....

[rrdude]

Today's Wash Post has a "less than positive" column written by by Robert J. Samuelson explaining the "Boondoggle" of HSR in the USA. Post Article

If you are like me, you may absolutely HATE writing letters, emails, etc., in support of rail passenger service. But, if you are like me, you may also see it as a necessary evil, to keep what we have, and build political support for more passenger rail service.

Here's the email form you can use to send the author a short, supportive email in favor of HSR.

As much as we enjoyed the "fluff" of the CBS Morning piece on Cali Rail, we need to debunk the views of authors like Samuelson.

Fire up 'yer keyboards posters!

 

[rrdude]

Sorry, here's the form to write Samuelson.

Email form to send to Samuelson

 

[rrdude]

OK, that was my FIRST attempt at sending a link, obviously I failed.

So cut an paste this, or just Google it. http://www.americanissuesproject.org/blogs...boondoggle.aspx

2nd Attempt at link

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Here, send him this

 

[saxman]

You can also post a comment under the article. Its just the typical spinning of numbers to make rail look bad.

 

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Today's Wash Post has a "less than positive" column written by by Robert J. Samuelson explaining the "Boondoggle" of HSR in the USA. Post Article
If you are like me, you may absolutely HATE writing letters, emails, etc., in support of rail passenger service. But, if you are like me, you may also see it as a necessary evil, to keep what we have, and build political support for more passenger rail service.

Here's the email form you can use to send the author a short, supportive email in favor of HSR.

As much as we enjoyed the "fluff" of the CBS Morning piece on Cali Rail, we need to debunk the views of authors like Samuelson.

Fire up 'yer keyboards posters!

Personally, I support passenger rail and Amtrak, but I can't supported some of the doomed, so-called "High Speed Rail" projects that are vying for public funds.

This editorial was not a nuanced discussion on passenger rail, or especially informative, but the fundamental truth is that many HSR initiatives are without any merit.

As rail advocates, we should support worthwhile proposals while vehemently condemning HSR "boondoggles."

 

[jis]

If you want to see a real food fight on a Blog about an unusually poorly researched snow jobs on HSR by Eric Morris, that was published in NY Times in the Freakonomics column, take a look at this blog. Quite entertaining reading actually. Interesting that figures provided by the Reason Foundation are being percolated into the discussion posing as "well researched facts" by the mainstream so called Liberal Press like the NY Times now.

 

[saxman]

Today's Wash Post has a "less than positive" column written by by Robert J. Samuelson explaining the "Boondoggle" of HSR in the USA. Post Article
If you are like me, you may absolutely HATE writing letters, emails, etc., in support of rail passenger service. But, if you are like me, you may also see it as a necessary evil, to keep what we have, and build political support for more passenger rail service.

Here's the email form you can use to send the author a short, supportive email in favor of HSR.

As much as we enjoyed the "fluff" of the CBS Morning piece on Cali Rail, we need to debunk the views of authors like Samuelson.

Fire up 'yer keyboards posters!

Personally, I support passenger rail and Amtrak, but I can't supported some of the doomed, so-called "High Speed Rail" projects that are vying for public funds.

This editorial was not a nuanced discussion on passenger rail, or especially informative, but the fundamental truth is that many HSR initiatives are without any merit.

As rail advocates, we should support worthwhile proposals while vehemently condemning HSR "boondoggles."

I agree. Most people don't realize that there is a difference between high speed rail and higher speed rail. Most when they hear high speed rail, they believe its going to be 200 mph trains going from city center to city center without any stops. This will cost anywhere between 40 to 100 million a mile. This is verse incremental improvements where it may only cost 5 million a mile or so to get to 110 mph used by current Amtrak equipment.

I know that California has quite an extensive proposal to get 200+ mph trains which will be really cool if it gets done. I'm not saying the rest of the country shouldn't do it, but we should at least start at phase 1 and not phase 5 in many of our corridors.

 

[Hanno]

Getting back from vacation I just read an article in the August 17th issue of Fortune magazine entitled "China's Amazing New Bullet Train (it leaves America in the dust)". Among other things it states that China will spend $50 billion on high speed rail this year alone while we will spend $8 billion thru 2012 on HSR. There are a lot of differences between us and China, of course, but they are planning for the future which will include 16,000 miles of HSR by 2020!

I don't agree with Obama on many things but I do agree that we to be thinking longer term relative to transportation and need to go the way the rest of the world is going or we will be left behind in the dust.... again.

 

[Upstate]

Today's Wash Post has a "less than positive" column written by by Robert J. Samuelson explaining the "Boondoggle" of HSR in the USA. Post Article
If you are like me, you may absolutely HATE writing letters, emails, etc., in support of rail passenger service. But, if you are like me, you may also see it as a necessary evil, to keep what we have, and build political support for more passenger rail service.

Here's the email form you can use to send the author a short, supportive email in favor of HSR.

As much as we enjoyed the "fluff" of the CBS Morning piece on Cali Rail, we need to debunk the views of authors like Samuelson.

Fire up 'yer keyboards posters!

Personally, I support passenger rail and Amtrak, but I can't supported some of the doomed, so-called "High Speed Rail" projects that are vying for public funds.

This editorial was not a nuanced discussion on passenger rail, or especially informative, but the fundamental truth is that many HSR initiatives are without any merit.

As rail advocates, we should support worthwhile proposals while vehemently condemning HSR "boondoggles."

I agree. Most people don't realize that there is a difference between high speed rail and higher speed rail. Most when they hear high speed rail, they believe its going to be 200 mph trains going from city center to city center without any stops. This will cost anywhere between 40 to 100 million a mile. This is verse incremental improvements where it may only cost 5 million a mile or so to get to 110 mph used by current Amtrak equipment.

I know that California has quite an extensive proposal to get 200+ mph trains which will be really cool if it gets done. I'm not saying the rest of the country shouldn't do it, but we should at least start at phase 1 and not phase 5 in many of our corridors.

I'm with you fellows. I don't care much for the whole HSR thing when the money they could spend on it could greatly improve what is already here. Expanding the fleet and modernizing what is already here would be a much better use of money. So many people are stuck in the mindset that the faster the speed the better the quality.

 

[JSmith]

I agree that incremental improvement is where the money's at. Here's all I want for train service in Buffalo: trains leaving every daytime hour heading towards New York, Cleveland, and Toronto, running at 110 mph (with average speeds faster than driving). I really think that kind of service would significantly change the way people travel.

And direct service to Pittsburgh would be really great, too, but probably difficult to implement (maybe it could be done as a branch off of Erie, PA).

 

[Bob Dylan]

Ill take the politicians stand: I feel very strongly both ways!Nothing wrong with studying and planning for HSR in the places it is both feasible,necessary and AFFORDABLE!(Major urban areas,densly populated corridors etc.)Pie in the sky

schemes like Texas has tried on and off(mostly pyramid schemes by cronies of corrupt politicians)will only scam the money away and give the naysayers and train haters(are you listening GW)ammunition to stop funding all rail projects!

Im with the OP,we need to put the available money into improving and expanding what is already here and what works,

not get involved in political games about earmarks by powerful congressman and senators and have governors fighting over handouts from WAS!As much as Id like to see the routes that have vanished (ie the Pioneer/Dessert Wind/SL to Florida etc.)be re-started simple economics tell us that whats working needs to be improved and strengthened!Thats

the LD trains,the NE trains and the state trains such as the Cascades/Cal trains,economic distressed places like poor Michigan should get federal help so that the state legs dont start killing funding and lo and behold the trains vanish never to come again!I especially single out the Florida schemes that so many champion,the Silver trains work,all we need is a CHI-NOL-FLA connection and that should take care of this gap!Lets fix up the cars,buy build new ones,hire more OBS staff,improve the OTPs and go to daily trains on the three times a week routes!(Wouldnt hurt to lower the Acela and NEC fares a little more to attract the lost business till good times come again,AND THEY WILL!!!!)

 

[whistler]

I like the idea of high speed rail but, and I am problably wrong, until we get true seperation of freight and passenger and train and motor vehicle(eliminate or harden crossings to the point where Joe/Jane Sixpack can't bl;ow through a crossing guard and lose a game of tag with a consist) high speed rail or even higher speed rail is a pipe dream.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I like the idea of high speed rail but, and I am problably wrong, until we get true seperation of freight and passenger and train and motor vehicle(eliminate or harden crossings to the point where Joe/Jane Sixpack can't bl;ow through a crossing guard and lose a game of tag with a consist) high speed rail or even higher speed rail is a pipe dream.

Which raises a question: Has the Acela hit any idiots in the NEC are all the tracks protected during its runs?Seems I recall between WAS and Phila there are some crossings,dont remember seeing any reports but Im pretty sure someone(aka blooming idiot)has tried to run it!

 

[AlanB]

I like the idea of high speed rail but, and I am problably wrong, until we get true seperation of freight and passenger and train and motor vehicle(eliminate or harden crossings to the point where Joe/Jane Sixpack can't bl;ow through a crossing guard and lose a game of tag with a consist) high speed rail or even higher speed rail is a pipe dream.

Which raises a question: Has the Acela hit any idiots in the NEC are all the tracks protected during its runs?Seems I recall between WAS and Phila there are some crossings,dont remember seeing any reports but Im pretty sure someone(aka blooming idiot)has tried to run it!

Acela has hit and killed quite a few people, including 3 in the sole collision with a car that went through the quad gates in CT. But most of the fatalities were people trespassing on the tracks. The either get on the tracks at stations or through holes cut in the fences along the ROW, where there are fences. The entire line however is not fenced off, only the more populated areas are fenced off.

 

[whistler]

I like the idea of high speed rail but, and I am problably wrong, until we get true seperation of freight and passenger and train and motor vehicle(eliminate or harden crossings to the point where Joe/Jane Sixpack can't bl;ow through a crossing guard and lose a game of tag with a consist) high speed rail or even higher speed rail is a pipe dream.

Which raises a question: Has the Acela hit any idiots in the NEC are all the tracks protected during its runs?Seems I recall between WAS and Phila there are some crossings,dont remember seeing any reports but Im pretty sure someone(aka blooming idiot)has tried to run it!

Not all

A quick google has a story from 2005 in Conneticut -

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/25416...sing/index.html

was the only crossing accident that came up for Acela.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I like the idea of high speed rail but, and I am problably wrong, until we get true seperation of freight and passenger and train and motor vehicle(eliminate or harden crossings to the point where Joe/Jane Sixpack can't bl;ow through a crossing guard and lose a game of tag with a consist) high speed rail or even higher speed rail is a pipe dream.

Which raises a question: Has the Acela hit any idiots in the NEC are all the tracks protected during its runs?Seems I recall between WAS and Phila there are some crossings,dont remember seeing any reports but Im pretty sure someone(aka blooming idiot)has tried to run it!

Not all

A quick google has a story from 2005 in Conneticut -

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/25416...sing/index.html

was the only crossing accident that came up for Acela.

Thanks,what a shame for those kids,cant say the same for the idiot driving!

 

[AlanB]

I like the idea of high speed rail but, and I am problably wrong, until we get true seperation of freight and passenger and train and motor vehicle(eliminate or harden crossings to the point where Joe/Jane Sixpack can't bl;ow through a crossing guard and lose a game of tag with a consist) high speed rail or even higher speed rail is a pipe dream.

Which raises a question: Has the Acela hit any idiots in the NEC are all the tracks protected during its runs?Seems I recall between WAS and Phila there are some crossings,dont remember seeing any reports but Im pretty sure someone(aka blooming idiot)has tried to run it!

Not all

A quick google has a story from 2005 in Conneticut -

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/25416...sing/index.html

was the only crossing accident that came up for Acela.

Thanks,what a shame for those kids,cant say the same for the idiot driving!

Actually Jim, although I don't recall seeing a final report on this, there were stories out that the grandmother had at least blacked out and the car rolled forward through the gate because of that. I don't recall if they ever positively determined that or not, much less why she might have blacked out.

 

[birdy]

Our total federal transportation spending is only 2% of the federal budget. Its not an either or proposition. That's why we have bridges falling in the river. Get that up to 5% and we might get somewhere. We need all of it: true HSR for the the major point to point destinations, moderate speed rail for the smaller areas light rai and improved roads.

The penalties paid by the UBS tax cheats (about $12 billion) will very nicely pay for one line in the midwest. Or, to put it another way, the cost of our wars until Labor Day will pay for one midwestern line.

 

[Mark]

What I have a hard time understanding is why so many of these writers cannot get past the 'Amtrak is/was and always will be heavily subsidized' mantra, yet they always overlook other forms of transportation. I'm not anti-air or anti-car but I am pro-train, HSR and specifically pro-Amtrak. That being said a quick google search of TSA and the FAA turned up these numbers that are never mentioned by the anti-Amtrak crowd: the FAA budget request for 2009 is right around 14.6 Billion and the TSA is coming in at around 6.8 Billion dollars. Together it is costing the tax payers about 21.4 Billion to have these 'essential' services in place. Depending how one looks at it that could be a large chuck of money. I view it as a 'subsidy' to air travel that NEVER gets mentioned.

 

[volkris]

What I have a hard time understanding is why so many of these writers cannot get past the 'Amtrak is/was and always will be heavily subsidized' mantra, yet they always overlook other forms of transportation. I'm not anti-air or anti-car but I am pro-train, HSR and specifically pro-Amtrak. That being said a quick google search of TSA and the FAA turned up these numbers that are never mentioned by the anti-Amtrak crowd: the FAA budget request for 2009 is right around 14.6 Billion and the TSA is coming in at around 6.8 Billion dollars. Together it is costing the tax payers about 21.4 Billion to have these 'essential' services in place. Depending how one looks at it that could be a large chuck of money. I view it as a 'subsidy' to air travel that NEVER gets mentioned.

Because they're different questions!

The fact that money is allocated to air and highway travel doesn't somehow make it completely ok for Amtrak to be subsidized as well. Subsidy of Amtrak is either right or wrong, or is too big or too small, completely regardless of what any other mode of transportation gets. That's not to say that Amtrak shouldn't be subsidized, only that the subsidy can't be justified based on unrelated notions.

Is Amtrak valuable and worth a subsidy? Great! Give it one. Is Amtrak not worth the subsidy? Take it away! Same with the TSA and FAA.

So no, the reporters don't generally mention the funding of other modes of transportation, but then they don't mention what the head of the FAA had on his waffles either. Both are pretty irrelevant to determining whether the subsidy is worthwhile.

 

[Bob Dylan]

What I have a hard time understanding is why so many of these writers cannot get past the 'Amtrak is/was and always will be heavily subsidized' mantra, yet they always overlook other forms of transportation. I'm not anti-air or anti-car but I am pro-train, HSR and specifically pro-Amtrak. That being said a quick google search of TSA and the FAA turned up these numbers that are never mentioned by the anti-Amtrak crowd: the FAA budget request for 2009 is right around 14.6 Billion and the TSA is coming in at around 6.8 Billion dollars. Together it is costing the tax payers about 21.4 Billion to have these 'essential' services in place. Depending how one looks at it that could be a large chuck of money. I view it as a 'subsidy' to air travel that NEVER gets mentioned.

One of my favorites!The TSA("thousands standing around") and the FAA might just be the biggest waste of transportation dollars since the days of the robber baron railroad tycoons that scammed and schemed their way to ultra riches at the expense of the common people by enriching themselves @ the public trough in the name of the public good!The other scam is of course the asphalt lobby(now known as the toll road lobby here in Texas) which sucks up so much money that even GWs guys were embarrased by their greed and slight of hand tricks!Lastly the so called bailouts were the latest scams run by so called transportation experts ie, the bailout of the auto giants (cudos to Ford and the so called foriegn companies for not taking any "free" money)and the

just completed scam called "cash for clunkers"!As Bob Dylan sang in the 70s: "..when you gonna wake up.."Of course being anti-highway and car here in Texas is akin to being "a communist" in the 50s so guess I better watch my mouth and/or move back to the NE where there is pretty fair public trans that even the most conservative of politicians support and accept as necessary and in the public interest!

 

[PRR 60]

...and the FAA might just be the biggest waste of transportation dollars since the days of the robber baron railroad tycoons that scammed and schemed their way to ultra riches at the expense of the common people by enriching themselves @ the public trough in the name of the public good!

On what basis do you make that statement?

 

[jis]

.... the FAA might just be the biggest waste of transportation dollars since the days of the robber baron railroad tycoons that scammed and schemed their way to ultra riches at the expense of the common people by enriching themselves @ the public trough in the name of the public good!

?? And you believe such rants are going to increase your credibility in these discussions? Okey... :blink:

 

[Mark]

What I have a hard time understanding is why so many of these writers cannot get past the 'Amtrak is/was and always will be heavily subsidized' mantra, yet they always overlook other forms of transportation. I'm not anti-air or anti-car but I am pro-train, HSR and specifically pro-Amtrak. That being said a quick google search of TSA and the FAA turned up these numbers that are never mentioned by the anti-Amtrak crowd: the FAA budget request for 2009 is right around 14.6 Billion and the TSA is coming in at around 6.8 Billion dollars. Together it is costing the tax payers about 21.4 Billion to have these 'essential' services in place. Depending how one looks at it that could be a large chuck of money. I view it as a 'subsidy' to air travel that NEVER gets mentioned.

Because they're different questions!

The fact that money is allocated to air and highway travel doesn't somehow make it completely ok for Amtrak to be subsidized as well. Subsidy of Amtrak is either right or wrong, or is too big or too small, completely regardless of what any other mode of transportation gets. That's not to say that Amtrak shouldn't be subsidized, only that the subsidy can't be justified based on unrelated notions.

Is Amtrak valuable and worth a subsidy? Great! Give it one. Is Amtrak not worth the subsidy? Take it away! Same with the TSA and FAA.

So no, the reporters don't generally mention the funding of other modes of transportation, but then they don't mention what the head of the FAA had on his waffles either. Both are pretty irrelevant to determining whether the subsidy is worthwhile.

I see your point but I don't agree. While it may be true that what the head of the FAA had on his waffles is irrelevant so is what the head of Amtrak had on his pancakes. Apples and oranges my friend.

I believe it is relevant to mention what other modes of transportation receive in federal subsidies. I'm not referring to the size of the subsidy or whether or not one mode qualifies. What I'm aiming at is the way these reports portray Amtrak and the negative tone that they imply. They, the reporters, make it sound like Amtrak is the only mode to receive federal support and that is simply untrue and false reporting. When there is a car crash or whenever there is a big air meltdown due to bad weather we only hear about the thousands stranded and not the 21 or so Billion spent on our aviation system annually. Let an Amtrak train have a problem, no matter how small and 9 times out of 10 there will be a mention of the 'federal subsidy' at some point in the report.