Routes Amtrak shouldn't bring back?

[GlobalistPotato]

Okay, so many of us on here probably agree that trains like the Lone Star (1979) or Desert Wind (1997?) shouldn't have been deleted from the route system, but there's some routes that have really been deserved to be deleted.

And yet, there are those who want to bring back these routes because they serve towns or states that have been left out of the system.

I'm thinking of you, North Coast Hiawatha, you and your $178 per passenger subsidy at the time of cancelation...

"It would be cheaper to buy every Chicago-Seattle rail passenger a free $170 plane ticket and two drinks than it is to operate the Hiawatha." - Brock Adams

Such trains have become cannon-fodder against Amtrak, really.

Yeah. Yet Amtrak recently did a study on bringing it back, and of course Montana wants this train...

Apparently the cost Amtrak is estimating for a daily train is $1 billion.

I'm not saying that this shouldn't ever come back; it's just that in our world of scare political and financial resources for Amtrak, there are a million other routes that would be better than the Hiawatha.

For instance, for that same $1 billion, Amtrak could introduce 4 MSP-CHI trains, including one that goes on to serve Fargo, ND at more convenient hours.

Or for $750 million of that $1 billion, we could just pay off Union Pacific and introduce a daily Sunset Limited and have the rest of the $250 million be used for reinstating the NOL-MIA section of the Sunset.

Or for $1 billion, there could be real service between Dallas and Houston.

Or for $1 billion, Amtrak could put that money towards building the new Portal Tunnels.

Or for $1 billion, there are other routes that can be improved in various ways.

Etc, etc.

Are there any routes that shouldn't be brought back or introduced, even if you're supportive of Amtrak or improved passenger rail?

 

[fairviewroad]

Lake Country Limited.

Can't say there's no need to serve Janesville, WI but a once-daily, 30 mph train surely ain't the way to do it.

Though it must surely be a candidate for the most unusual/ugly Amtrak train ever:

 

[George Harris]

How about recongising that the Northeast Corridor is NOT where you get the biggest bang for your buck. About all that can be done there has been done that does not involve spending mega-millions.

Without spending a lot of money for improved track capacity and speed, there is no point in bringing back the Floridian.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Key West Service....

 

[Tumbleweed]

Key West Service....

Any Flagler descendants around?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

For $750 million of that $1 billion, we could just pay off Union Pacific and introduce a daily Sunset Limited and have the rest of the $250 million be used for reinstating the NOL-MIA section of the Sunset.

That would set a terrible precedent in that Amtrak would likely be expected to routinely pay massive subsidies to financially healthy owners for a relatively minimal one-time change in the future. And this is coming from an active passenger rail fan who lives along the (former) midway point of the Sunset Limited route and would love to see improved services to both California and Florida.

 

[me_little_me]

Florida to NOL. Not needed. Put in Atlanta - Florida instead.

 

[Gratt]

I honestly think the desert wind is less useful than the NCH.

Yes the LAX- Vegas section is critical but nothing else is. You can get from Utah to California already, and if California HSR ever starts to work a direct route will likely be slower.

As for the one Billion dollar price tag for the NCH I agree it is not worth if if you are assuming someone hands Amtrak a billion dollar blank check. That is not likely to be the case, if the states the NCH would run though, put up the money or find a cheaper way to do the same thing then I believe Amtrak should run the service and even without state support for its operating costs.

I cannot say the same about the vegas-SLC leg of the desert wind.

 

[railiner]

If you're looking for a 'waste of money', how about the Atlantic City train? Kudo's to Amtrak for dumping it off on NJTransit.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

Lake Country Limited.

Can't say there's no need to serve Janesville, WI but a once-daily, 30 mph train surely ain't the way to do it.

Though it must surely be a candidate for the most unusual/ugly Amtrak train ever:

We should let Metra serve Janesville, I think theres a plan to do so.

 

[jis]

If you're looking for a 'waste of money', how about the Atlantic City train? Kudo's to Amtrak for dumping it off on NJTransit.

Actually Amtrak did not really dump much on NJT. They just stopped running their own trains and handed over dispatching to NJT, which made a lot of sense. At that point NJT simply transferred the Atlantic City dispatch desk from Philadelphia to their central dispatching center in the Meadowlands. NJT was already running their own service anyway in parallel with Amtrak. They also downgraded the track one notch to 80mph from 90mph. And they got Thruway status with Amtrak for their trains. In general the State of NJ and NJT came out ahead in the deal overall. They always wanted full control for minimal price and they got it. It turned out to be truly a win-win situation, figuratively speaking.

 

[Terminal Wander]

What about the The Mountaineer which when from Norfolk to Chicago without going to Richmond or Indy it did join the James Whitcomb Riley which did serve Richmond.

 

[railiner]

What about the The Mountaineer which when from Norfolk to Chicago without going to Richmond or Indy it did join the James Whitcomb Riley which did serve Richmond.

Between powerful Senator Byrd, and Congressman Staggers, West Virginia did enjoy a lot from the 'pork barrel' when it came to Amtrak thru the years.

Remember "Harley's Comet" or whatever the wags called the TurboTrain to Parkersburg? Then there was the Shenandoah, the Mountaineer, the Hilltopper, etc.

 

[Guest]

Autotrain from Chicago to Sanford. :unsure:

 

[jis]

What about the The Mountaineer which when from Norfolk to Chicago without going to Richmond or Indy it did join the James Whitcomb Riley which did serve Richmond.

Between powerful Senator Byrd, and Congressman Staggers, West Virginia did enjoy a lot from the 'pork barrel' when it came to Amtrak thru the years.

Remember "Harley's Comet" or whatever the wags called the TurboTrain to Parkersburg? Then there was the Shenandoah, the Mountaineer, the Hilltopper, etc.

Wasn't there this thing called "Tri-State Stationa t Cattletsburg KY" or some such in the middle of nowhere?

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Autotrain from Chicago to Sanford. :unsure:

There never was a Chicago-Sanford autotrain!

 

[MikefromCrete]

Lake Country Limited.

Can't say there's no need to serve Janesville, WI but a once-daily, 30 mph train surely ain't the way to do it.

Though it must surely be a candidate for the most unusual/ugly Amtrak train ever:

Since Janesville is in Wisconsin, there would have to be a lot of negotiations with Metra, a creature of the Illinois legislature and paid for by taxpayers in the six counties of Northeast Illinois before a Metra train enters Wisconsin. Good luck getting Scott Walker to pay for that! I know Metra trains service Kenosha, but that's a call that was made by Union Pacific predecessor Chicago and North Western. No Illinois funds are used to serve Kenosha. I thlnk UP eats the cost.

 

[Tony]

There never was a Chicago-Sanford autotrain!

I thought there was an Autotrain that served Chicago and the mid-west, from 1974 to 1977? It was such a money looser, that it helped to drive the original Autotrain into bankruptcy. No?

Obviously, Amtrak shouldn't brink back such a proven money looser.

 

[PaulM]

Whenever the subject of a new service comes up, naysayers will say that it failed back in .....; and it will fail again. I often think that maybe then is then and now is now. Case in point where I think demand is there: the Broadway Limited/Pennsylvanian/3 Rivers.

Two that I would question are the Houston-Dallas section of the TE and the Gulf Breeze between Birmingham and Mobile, which also carried a through coach from the Crescent. I rode both back in 95, not long before their demise; and both were almost empty. So despite connecting the states' two (Texas) and three (Alabama) largest cities, they might not be worth bringing back.

 

[TVRM610]

Whenever the subject of a new service comes up, naysayers will say that it failed back in .....; and it will fail again. I often think that maybe then is then and now is now. Case in point where I think demand is there: the Broadway Limited/Pennsylvanian/3 Rivers.

Two that I would question are the Houston-Dallas section of the TE and the Gulf Breeze between Birmingham and Mobile, which also carried a through coach from the Crescent. I rode both back in 95, not long before their demise; and both were almost empty. So despite connecting the states' two (Texas) and three (Alabama) largest cities, they might not be worth bringing back.

I agree 100%, the Northeast to Chicago needs more service. I wish the Pennsylvanian could be extended to Chicago for sure. But, I realize the limitations.

I'd say my other vote would be to extend the Palmetto.

As for the Gulf Breeze, I think the train could work, especially if it was operated as a separate train, say Charlotte-Mobile, this links Charlotte-Atlanta-Birmingham-Mobile. I know I'm just dreaming, but I think a train like that could be popular, especially if one could connect in Mobile to a Florida bound train. Again.. dreams.

 

[Ryan]

There never was a Chicago-Sanford autotrain!

I thought there was an Autotrain that served Chicago and the mid-west, from 1974 to 1977? It was such a money looser, that it helped to drive the original Autotrain into bankruptcy. No?

Obviously, Amtrak shouldn't brink back such a proven money looser.

The train operated from Louisville to Sanford.

 

[Sam31452]

There would be definitely a market for an overnight SFC (EMY/OKJ) - LAX train.

 

[Sam31452]

Any route west of Chicago. There are not enough people in that area (with the exception of California/Oregon/Washington maybe parts of Texas).

 

[GlobalistPotato]

There never was a Chicago-Sanford autotrain!

I thought there was an Autotrain that served Chicago and the mid-west, from 1974 to 1977? It was such a money looser, that it helped to drive the original Autotrain into bankruptcy. No?

Obviously, Amtrak shouldn't brink back such a proven money looser.

The train operated from Louisville to Sanford.

OH. I confused Sanford with Lorton!

Yes, there was a Louisville-Sanford Autotrain, which failed, but that wasn't an Amtrak route.

Amtrak would probably have more success with a similar route today than there was back in the '70s.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Whenever the subject of a new service comes up, naysayers will say that it failed back in _______ and it will fail again. I often think that maybe then is then and now is now.

I agree with that sentiment as well.

What keeps our passenger rail services from expanding seems to have surprisingly little to do with the likely success or failure of any given route or schedule. Even though I think the potential passenger volume along the so-called Texas Triangle route could eventually support several trains a day, it will forever be stymied by perpetual lobbying from businesses that benefit from the current focus on air travel and roadways. Even if UP suddenly rolled over and let Amtrak schedule whatever it wanted there would still be hell to pay from the airlines, dealerships, tollway authorities, and road construction companies once an sufficiently viable alternative began to emerge.