Riding train vs flying ... some questions

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For the ear problems: Give the kid something to chew on or suck on. Yes, this is an appropriate time for a pacifier. Working the jaw will keep the ears popped. If the kid has stopped up sinuses, cancel if you can. The trip will be miserable.
That is good advice for even most adults. Just to make it more acceptable for adults substitute "chewing gum" for "pacifier" though arguably, many adults could actually do quite well with a pacifier too, but it'd look a little odd. :lol:
Oh, stuff it. :giggle:

I just keep swallowing. Though my most recent flights, I don't recall doing that much and was fine.
My bigger issue in flight is with AIF - Altitude-Induced Flatulence. Chewing gum does not seem to help that. Looking around and casting suspicion on nearby passengers is one strategy to avoid detection. That is a short-term solution that does not work very long.
 
I think the "meeting people" can be important even for toddlers. I still remember an early train trip to "out east" with my mom and baby brother and the chance to meet new people- in very safe circumstances - on the train.

My daughter (now 25) clearly remembers a trip at age 4 from MSP WAS (Dad - what was the problem with that woman in the dining car - she was telling me that those auto racks were "cattle cars"?)

Even very young kids can learn from meeting (with parental supervision) slightly deluded train passengers. How else to learn about such, if not at school, or from parent's work. (Parents, of course, are never mistaken about anything - Hah! - I think it helps to introduce kids to other adults who are slightly more delusional even than us parents - helps in the longer run - in the mid teens - dad can say "I'm not as nuts as "--")

Yeah - for kids also - meeting strangers and strange people on the train is probably a good thing - and for that, the train is better by far than private auto, air, bus - in that order. Kids need to learn,

So do us old folks .
I took my kids on the train last month and was frankly glad that they didn't meet anyone on that train. There were a couple of people in the lounge that had been imbibing a little too much. There was the one lady who, upon finding out that she'd have to go down stairs to get to the cafe, let out with a super loud "F---" that the whole car heard, and then proceeded to alternately wail and swear about how difficult everything had been going for her. There were the woman and man at the station in Tucson who got in a huge shouting match with all manner of profanities flying left and right because the woman thought the man had made some remark about her mother while they were on the train. I thought the police were going to get called for that one.

Seriously, what is wrong with people? When gathered together with other people, can't we all just agree to act civilized? Particularly with language... I'll use a few swear words from time to time when I know who I'm speaking with and I'm sure the situation allows for it, but never in a public setting among people I don't know. That's just not civilized. I'm not worried that a few swear words are going to permanently scar my kids or anything, but I really don't like putting them in situations like that. I'm trying to teach them that that behavior is unacceptable, and I don't like putting them in situations where other people are acting like it's perfectly acceptable. I just have to treat those situations as educational opportunities and tell my kids, "see, this is a good example of how not to act" while just hoping that expanding their world view in this way ends up with a positive effect. It left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth and it will make me much more hesitant about bringing my kids on the train in the future.

I'm hesitant about even bringing my kids to the station for that matter. At the Tucson station, they've got an old steam locomotive on display, and on National Train Day they were letting kids climb in to the cab, ring the bell, etc. While my kids were in the cab, the one ancient volunteer there in the cab was saying to the other ancient volunteer, "f--- this", "f--- that", etc. Come on! It's not just that kids might be present. There are kids all over this locomotive! Your whole reason for being up in the cab is to show it to kids! Seriously, what is wrong with people?
 
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For the ear problems: Give the kid something to chew on or suck on. Yes, this is an appropriate time for a pacifier. Working the jaw will keep the ears popped. If the kid has stopped up sinuses, cancel if you can. The trip will be miserable.
That is good advice for even most adults. Just to make it more acceptable for adults substitute "chewing gum" for "pacifier" though arguably, many adults could actually do quite well with a pacifier too, but it'd look a little odd. :lol:
Oh, stuff it. :giggle:

I just keep swallowing. Though my most recent flights, I don't recall doing that much and was fine.
My bigger issue in flight is with AIF - Altitude-Induced Flatulence. Chewing gum does not seem to help that. Looking around and casting suspicion on nearby passengers is one strategy to avoid detection. That is a short-term solution that does not work very long.
Great, now we've worked farts into this thread.

Most "Mericans just think about "out-of-pocket" costs when making a travel decision. I've long-ago stopped trying to convince friends or co-workers that rail travel is less expensive, ............"when one considers the true cost of driving my friend, depreciation, insurance, yada, yada, yada............" Then your coworker answers, "But I've only got $200 on my debit card......."

THAT, (right or wrong) is how many people decide on which mode to travel. The cheapest out-of-pocket ticket cost.
 
If a baby won't drink or take a pacifier, you can position them so they're looking at you and then yawn. They'll end up mimicing you, and it can help relieve the pressure.

For this very reason, I'd rather bring two toddlers on the train. They'll have more room to play, it will be fun for them to watch the scenery (you can point out all kinds of animals, cars, trucks, buildings), and you'll have more room to spread out period. I can't imagine hauling all of the stuff required for two toddlers through security and onto an airplane and then putting them through the pressure issues. They'll have much more fun crawling around a family bedroom and looking out the windows.
 
When gathered together with other people, can't we all just agree to act civilized?
I think part of the problem is that many of us have been taught that we're not really in this together. That working together for the benefit of strangers without compensation is wrong and un-American. That it's really all about how to get to the top at the expense of everyone else however you can. Pardon me for pointing this out, but we now have Gordon Gekko on the news telling us how he's going to fix our society's problems by following his tried and true method of buying us out, diving up the proceeds, and selling off whatever remains to the highest bidder. I think it's pretty clear that we've been building a society that only thinks of ourselves and will turn on each other the moment anything goes wrong. Then we wonder why nobody seems to think about the needs of anyone else. I think we know why. We just don't want to admit it.
 
A reason not to fly is the TSA groping/abuse nightmare, taking off your shoes and being irradiated, etc. Also, some toddlers still have serious trouble with the air pressure changes and can scream the entire length of the trip....
I finished 5 flights in the past ten days, and just crossed the figure of flying 100,000 miles in the past three years, having been through 27 airports and 9 different airlines.. I am still trying to figure out where is this "TSA groping and nightmare" that some folks here keep talking about? Not once has passing security involved anything more than a 2 second scan through the machine. Not one TSA agent has ever touched me, and oh, if you are worried about being "irradiated" by the scanner, I hope you are not using a cell phone at all and living at least a mile away from nearest cell phone towers. Also I am still on the lookout for a baby that screams the entire length of a flight. I guess this species, like the Loch Ness Monster, exists somewhere, I just need to look closely maybe? Did I mention the baby who kept crying and screaming throughout my trip on the Southwest Chief?

Now, don't get me wrong, I am no big fan of flying. In fact I enjoyed the 30 hours train trip more than the 2 hour flight when I did my recent trip to Tucson, but what amuses me is how much some folks out here demonize the TSA and the entire flying experience. The fact is, here in America, one can not always take the train. Sometimes taking a flight is a much better option than taking Amtrak, and when that is the case, I see absolutely no problem in flying.
Very well stated. I do close to 100,000 miles each year on 30 - 40 trips. I have not been groped (or touched) by any TSA agent yet. It is even less likely that such would happen since now I am on the TSA trusted traveler program. Indeed so far this year I have been through a millimeter wave scanner three times and an X-Ray scanner once, and the rest has been through magnetometers. So I am sure I have gotten more radiation from standing out in the Sun and using a cell phone, and of course flying at 38,000' than because of anything that the TSA did.

I just got back from India on a 15 hour non stop flight, which was as close to perfect as can be. No screaming kids, no turbulence, reasonably good food, great AVOD system with a great moving map. It even arrived an hour and 15 mins ahead of schedule. It got in so early that we had to wait for CBP to wake up and come to duty before they could let us off the plane. Took them about 20 mins to achieve that. But still I was almost home before the scheduled arrival time of the flight. And on the way I got a spectacular view of the Midnight Sun over the Arctics. What can beat that?
Oh, goodie, a couple more "Never happened to me so it doesn't exist" folks.

I guess drunk drivers, muggers and child molesters don't exist either. After all, they never happened to YOU....
 
Oh, goodie, a couple more "Never happened to me so it doesn't exist" folks.

I guess drunk drivers, muggers and child molesters don't exist either. After all, they never happened to YOU....
Nor does it happen to everyone, as some posters imply. It has not happened to me either, sorry to tell you.

The funny thing is that I ride Amtrak because I enjoy Amtrak, not because I hate air travel. I guess I'm not a true fan.
 
Oh, goodie, a couple more "Never happened to me so it doesn't exist" folks.

I guess drunk drivers, muggers and child molesters don't exist either. After all, they never happened to YOU....
Nor does it happen to everyone, as some posters imply. It has not happened to me either, sorry to tell you.

The funny thing is that I ride Amtrak because I enjoy Amtrak, not because I hate air travel. I guess I'm not a true fan.
Everyone doesn't get mugged, either. I guess that means that those who do should just suck it up and walk it off, huh?...
 
No, I'm suggesting that the posters you claim imply that it happens to everyone don't exist.

The fact that it happens to anyone should offend anyone that takes their civil liberties seriously. Burying your head in the ground and saying "it doesn't happen to me" means nothing to the people that do have legitimate complaints.
 
Ah, yes, the old "flying-is-bad-no-it's good argument. As for me personally and ONLY me personally(gotta make that clear right away) :lol: I haven't had much problem with TSA, other than the whole routine in general is a pain in the neck IMHO (and sometimes I have a lower opinion of it than that). ;) The worst problems I've had with TSA is in little ole Spokane, hardly the terrorist mecca of the world. I've had shaving cream confiscated, I've been subject to such a thorough search of my backpack that I nearly missed my flight, and in general it's like trying to enter Fort Knox. I've had far less problems in much bigger airports such as Sea-Tac and LAX. Now, all that said, I would guess that if a million people had had the identical experience with flying I have, you'd have a million different opinions on it. Just because my experience has been (relatively) hassle-free certainly doesn't mean everyone else's has. And just because others have had very bad experiences doesn't mean others haven't had good ones. I fly when necessary, and take Amtrak when I want to. So I guess I'm not a fan either. I would never tell anyone to fly (or not) based on my experience nor would I ever tell anyone else they're wrong about flying based on my experience. Or take the train or drive, for that matter.
 
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This is not a "Flying is bad train is good" argument, this is a "TSA is bad no I've never had it happen to me so la la la" argument. ;)

Let me be frank - I have no problem with flying. Enjoying flying and being a railfan are perfectly compatible, not mutually exclusive. Who doesn't like big machines? :D

There are times that flying absolutely beats the heck out of the train.

That being said, the TSA can die in a fire. And as long as they're at the airport, I'm on the train.

And I'm not alone. There's a bunch of us out there who have had enough "Touchy-Feely" experiences to last one lifetime, thank you, and we have disposable income, and we're taking your roomettes and bedrooms and costing YOU more when you do take the train.

So see, it's in your own self interests to join me in telling the TSA to... well, you know.
 
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Dangerously verering back to "on topic", it's also a "going through the TSA Security Theatre with a couple kids is a royal pain in the neck" thread, even when you don't have to deal with the extra credit secondary screening.

Given the choice between flying with kids and taking the train with kids, the train wins in the "ease of use" front every time.
 
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There's pluses and minuses there too, like everything else in life.

Take my 3 year old (please! LOL)... he likes airplanes, and he likes trains.

But after 30 hours of bouncing off the walls in a roomette... well, it's not as bad as being strapped in a carseat. But it's close. ;)
 
Let me be frank - I have no problem with flying. Enjoying flying and being a railfan are perfectly compatible, not mutually exclusive. Who doesn't like big machines? :D
There are times that flying absolutely beats the heck out of the train.
Yeah - like going to Japan.
 
I like airliners and pax trains. This biggest whim I have about planes, though, are the small seats, not the TSA. Even Greyhound seats are bigger!
 
If a baby won't drink or take a pacifier, you can position them so they're looking at you and then yawn. They'll end up mimicing you, and it can help relieve the pressure.

For this very reason, I'd rather bring two toddlers on the train. They'll have more room to play, it will be fun for them to watch the scenery (you can point out all kinds of animals, cars, trucks, buildings), and you'll have more room to spread out period. I can't imagine hauling all of the stuff required for two toddlers through security and onto an airplane and then putting them through the pressure issues. They'll have much more fun crawling around a family bedroom and looking out the windows.
That seems like useful advice about getting baby to mimic and relieve the pressure that way. Thanks.

Even in coach, I personally have no problem with small children nearby babbling or walking in the aisle, as long as the parents exercise some reasonable degree of control when the young'ns get too rambunctious. In my experience the parents usually do have reasonable control -- with a few very annoying exceptions. Prime example of incompetent parenting is the parent who tries to out-shout the child or uses threats of violence (I've seen a few of these situations, on all modes of transport, or even at the supermarket -- I don't know any way to intervene or help, unless there is actual violence - I've called the cops or store security twice in the last 50 years)

But - over the last 30 years - I've changed. When I was 20-30 something and childless, "screaming babies" was how I perceived the young ones. And it bothered me a lot. Now that my own kids are grown, I just try to radiate calmness and support and I know the (babies, toddlers, screaming brats) will calm down eventually - and in most situations - doesn't worry or annoy me much at all. (Same for the "adult" babblers and sometimes drunks and dogmatic demanders)

The other passengers will have a wide range of responses - I try to calm them too as best I can - but we all have different responses - some of us want everybody else to sit quiet and never bother us at all, others want to talk, talk, talk - some are professional grumps - takes all kinds - yeah?
 
Let me be frank - I have no problem with flying. Enjoying flying and being a railfan are perfectly compatible, not mutually exclusive. Who doesn't like big machines? :D
There are times that flying absolutely beats the heck out of the train.
Yeah - like going to Japan.
As it happens, I plan to go to Japan soonish - the flight - in those tiny economy seats - seems more worrisome than traveling on the trains there (where the carry-on limits are so much less) - or the subways where it's SRO and hauling baggage - even small baggage - is discouraged.

36 hours in coach on the EB seems like nothing ( can walk, move, visit lounge and diner, recline) compared to the Pacific flight and the totally different - much faster - much more crowded trains when I get there.

But I will be flying to NRT -- no alternative - and hoping I like working with the transit there when I get there.
 
Oh, goodie, a couple more "Never happened to me so it doesn't exist" folks.

I guess drunk drivers, muggers and child molesters don't exist either. After all, they never happened to YOU....
If you bothered to read what I actually wrote, I did not say anything of the sort that you imply above. Your conjecture (actually setting up a strawman and knocking it down admirably) is entirely your contribution. I have been a critic of the TSA when it behaves poorly. But the point still remains that a vast majority of people who go through TSA barriers do so with no issues. That is not to say that some do not have huge problems. But completely getting rid of security inspection before boarding aircrafts in today's world is not an option either and has not been for decades predating the TSA. What needs to happen is that the more egregious behaviors of some TSA agents needs to be curtailed and a more transparent mechanism for remediation of the same needs to be put in place. But completely getting rid of gate security in commercial aviation is something that only people who are grossly unconnected with reality contemplate seriously.

The original subthread was about whether the existence of TSA is sufficient reason to shun air travel in general, and the fact remains that it is not, no matter how much a tiny vocal group rant and rave on and on.
 
The original subthread was about whether the existence of TSA is sufficient reason to shun air travel in general, and the fact remains that it is not, no matter how much a tiny vocal group rant and rave on and on.
For you (a seasoned traveler, with no special needs), that's certainly an accurate statement. But that's a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. I'd suspect that the decision could come out differently for folks with less experience trying to haul a large family though a TSA show.
 
The original subthread was about whether the existence of TSA is sufficient reason to shun air travel in general, and the fact remains that it is not, no matter how much a tiny vocal group rant and rave on and on.
For you (a seasoned traveler, with no special needs), that's certainly an accurate statement. But that's a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. I'd suspect that the decision could come out differently for folks with less experience trying to haul a large family though a TSA show.
Absolutely. No question about that. However, as far as air travel is concerned, the actual number of people that appear to avail of air service anyway (even for completely discretionary travel) seems to strongly suggest that for a vast majority the existence of TSA is not a sufficient deterrence to traveling by air. That is of course not to say that (a) the security processes are not a pain and (b) TSA sometimes appears to be trying hard to make it so for no particular conceivable reason. But in general, inconvenience yes, but deterrence, no. Greater deterrence appears to be things like baggage fees etc., but that is an outcome of the general philosophy of unpackaging everything so that the base fare presented can be as low as possible - the RyanAir (no pun intended :) ) syndrome, and planned reduction of seat inventory to sustainably increase base fares. Ironically, the latter also give Amtrak more breathing room in fare setting in air competitive markets.

Is security a pain in the butt? Of course, but what exactly is the reasonable alternative? As I said, the actual procedures can and should be streamlined, and to some extent such is taking place, but in a proper Capitalistic manner some of it requires buying into the convenience. But getting rid of it completely as dreamed by some is untenable in today's world.
 
Let me be frank - I have no problem with flying. Enjoying flying and being a railfan are perfectly compatible, not mutually exclusive. Who doesn't like big machines? :D
There are times that flying absolutely beats the heck out of the train.
Yeah - like going to Japan.
As it happens, I plan to go to Japan soonish - the flight - in those tiny economy seats - seems more worrisome than traveling on the trains there (where the carry-on limits are so much less) - or the subways where it's SRO and hauling baggage - even small baggage - is discouraged.

36 hours in coach on the EB seems like nothing ( can walk, move, visit lounge and diner, recline) compared to the Pacific flight and the totally different - much faster - much more crowded trains when I get there.

But I will be flying to NRT -- no alternative - and hoping I like working with the transit there when I get there.
If you would like some help in your transit planning from NRT to your final destination, please PM me. I'd be happy to help you.
 
The original subthread was about whether the existence of TSA is sufficient reason to shun air travel in general, and the fact remains that it is not, no matter how much a tiny vocal group rant and rave on and on.
For you (a seasoned traveler, with no special needs), that's certainly an accurate statement. But that's a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves. I'd suspect that the decision could come out differently for folks with less experience trying to haul a large family though a TSA show.
Absolutely. No question about that. However, as far as air travel is concerned, the actual number of people that appear to avail of air service anyway (even for completely discretionary travel) seems to strongly suggest that for a vast majority the existence of TSA is not a sufficient deterrence to traveling by air. That is of course not to say that (a) the security processes are not a pain and (b) TSA sometimes appears to be trying hard to make it so for no particular conceivable reason. But in general, inconvenience yes, but deterrence, no. Greater deterrence appears to be things like baggage fees etc., but that is an outcome of the general philosophy of unpackaging everything so that the base fare presented can be as low as possible - the RyanAir (no pun intended :) ) syndrome, and planned reduction of seat inventory to sustainably increase base fares. Ironically, the latter also give Amtrak more breathing room in fare setting in air competitive markets.

Is security a pain in the butt? Of course, but what exactly is the reasonable alternative? As I said, the actual procedures can and should be streamlined, and to some extent such is taking place, but in a proper Capitalistic manner some of it requires buying into the convenience. But getting rid of it completely as dreamed by some is untenable in today's world.
For some serious analysis of what is theatre and what might actually help security please see Bruce Schneier blog -- - no I've no connection therewith whatsoever - it's just the best analysis of risks I've seen - neither he nor me is selling anything .
 
For some serious analysis of what is theatre and what might actually help security please see Bruce Schneier blog -- - no I've no connection therewith whatsoever - it's just the best analysis of risks I've seen - neither he nor me is selling anything .
Do you have a URL for said Blog. I am interested in actually reading what he has to say. It would be really nice if there were any reasonable less intrusive method to achieve the same end.
 
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