Richard Anderson replacing Wick Moorman as Amtrak CEO

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
You will lose that bet. When the TSA was installed to violate peoples rights with the X-Ray machines, the removal of shoes and the whole none yards that was the time that we began boycotting the airports and started taking train trips.. If they gave us the flights for free we would not take them. What makes you believe that if the ONLY reason that we take Amtrak is changed, we won't do the same? Yes we enjoy train travel but when government ignores the Bill of Rights we just say no. Read the 4th amendment. Driving is perfectly fine and will get us to our destination in about the same time..
"Checkpoint - 2 miles ahead. All Traffic Must Stop."

Think it can't happen here? Think again. After all, what ever happened to, "Shall not be infringed?"
It's already happened...ever see the classic film, "The Grapes of Wrath"....the one where the migrant "Okies" are either harassed or turned back at western agricultural inspection station's on Route 66?

Still happens, we were driving into California on US97 and had to stop and an inspection station in beautiful downtown Dorris. They didn't seem too concerned about the few pieces of fruit we has purchased that morning in a supermarket in Grant's Pass, though.

The funny thing was that we had already spent most of the day in California, as we had visited Lava Beds National Monument, and there didn't seem to be any ag inspection stations on the back roads we took. In fact, we could have kept going on the back roads south from the monument and eventually ended up where we were going, thus potentially bringing who knows what kind of Oregon fruit flies into the Golden State.
 
I'm really not sensing a commitment to long distance travel. I've barely even see it mentioned and that safety message about changing operations during a signal suspension seems like it is designed to get under the hosts skin. I don't think it will spur the hosts to action. I think it will give them an excuse to delay the trains.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm really not sensing a commitment to long distance travel. I've barely even see it mentioned and that safety message about changing operations during a signal suspension seems like it is designed to get under the hosts skin. I don't think it will spur the hosts to action. I think it will give them an excuse to delay the trains.
This is what I was afraid of....
 
I'd suggest taking a closer look at the overnight schedules. DC to Chicago on the Capitol Limited works well -- it's a late afternoon, central, major city departure and an early enough central, major city arrival. Going the other way, it doesn't work so well -- you arrive DC in the afternoon, with most of a day gone.

It's the same with the Coast Starlight. Leaving from Seattle you'll lose a whole day getting to the Bay Area (half a day from Portland), and you'll likely still need time to connect to your final destination -- it doesn't go to San Francisco, and Silicon Valley is spread out all over the place. Not so much is within walking distance of the Oakland or San Jose stations. Coming north, it's the same problem in reverse, except even getting to Portland burns a whole day.

If he's thinking about optimising overnight city pairs for business travel, then it would make sense to break up the Starlight into two trains, one that would connect Portland and the Bay Area overnight, and a day train between the Bay Area and LA. Or maybe just move up the departure times from LA and Seattle -- a 6am departure out of LA would make the Bay Area to Portland run a little more workable, and arguably improve business service between LA and the Bay Area, or at least between the Central Coast and LA.

Then there's the on-time problem. You're absolutely right that it's critical. One way to address it is to make the runs shorter, i.e. break up or truncate the long haul routes.
So, making the runs shorter doesn't fix the on-time problem... AT ALL.

The irresponsible Class Is are quite capable of delaying a Michigan Service or Empire Service train by hours, and even Amtrak can do so.
 
Shortening runs won't prevent delays, but it will keep them from cascading. If the Coast Starlight is split, say, at Oakland, a delay in Oregon won't affect LA service and vice versa.
 
Shortening runs won't prevent delays, but it will keep them from cascading. If the Coast Starlight is split, say, at Oakland, a delay in Oregon won't affect LA service and vice versa.
That depends on if there are connections split and the equipment usage. It can cause connection delays at the intermediate point and delays at the associated turnaround points. So, instead of having one delayed train, you could have 4...depending on the schedule and equipment usage.
 
That depends on if there are connections split and the equipment usage. It can cause connection delays at the intermediate point and delays at the associated turnaround points. So, instead of having one delayed train, you could have 4...depending on the schedule and equipment usage.
You're assuming that it would be a straight through connection. If you assume, as an airline that focused on maximising service between city pairs rather than excursions might, that through passengers would overnight in the Bay Area at their own expense, it's not such a problem. Equipment could be assigned to one segment or the other, depending on services offered, with no more overlap than would be normal with any other trains that begin and end at the same location.
 
Given equipment cycles, shortening runs doesn't even prevent delays from cascading. The LSL has frequently been late out of Chicago because the previous LSL was late getting *into* Chicago. The only ways to fix this are to get extra equipment or to get extra station staff.

Runs have to terminate at maintenance bases in any case. So it's theoretically possible to divide the Coast Starlight into multiple routes at Oakland -- but it's extremely inconvenient at Oakland due to the location of the shops. It's theoretically possible to divide the Lake Shore Limited into multiple routes at Albany NY, but it would need a new commissary, NY and MA would have to support the trains east and south of there, and it would lose a lot of ridership. It's theoretically possible to divide the Silver Star and Silver Meteor at Sanford, FL but the Sanford facility is basically full, Florida would have to support the trains south of there, and it would lose a lot of ridership.

However, it's not possible to divide the routes of the Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans, or Capitol Limited *anywhere* -- they have to get to the maintenance base. And the only other place you could divide the Cardinal, Crescent, Silver Star, or Silver Meteor routes is Washington, which already happens sometimes and is definitely not worth the loss in ridership.

So basically it's not practical to split any of the routes. If the tracks near the Oakland maintenance faciliity weren't heavily congested (which they are) it might be possible to split the Coast Starlight at Oakland; but it isn't. See, you could run one train from Jack London Square to LA and one from Emeryville to Seattle, but if you want to run both of them to the same station, you end up having to run one of them backwards (probably to Jack London Square along the street trackage) and block the extremely congested tracks there for a long time. The only way I see around this would be to build a brand-new Amtrak station in West Oakland or move the Oakland maintenance facility, either of which would cost a fortune.
 
Airlines have figured this out. It's easy to raise objections to any specific example, and then to find specific solutions. But a better approach is to begin with general solutions that minimise the specific problems that need to be solved:

- Figure out what your core business is, then optimise for it. Anderson seems to think that Amtrak's core business is hauling lots and lots of people between key city pairs.

- Reduce the complexity of the fleet by getting rid of high maintenance and/or non-essential and/or low inventory equipment. The PPC qualified on all three counts, the next step is to scrap equipment that scores two out of three.

- The more the fleet is standardised, the easier it is to contract out break/fix maintenance. The newer the fleet, the less need there is for it.

- Vary the size and configuration of trains to match traffic and need. For example, eliminate sleepers and diners and increase coach/business class service south of Oakland.

- Where demand is lower, reduce frequency on that segment. Where demand is higher, raise it. Daily or better service might be needed between LA and Oakland, but not north of there, for example.

- Less frequent and shorter/less complex trains mean less maintenance, and more flexibility to assign equipment where demand is greater. It also reduces head count.

My impression is that Anderson thinks in terms of maximising the number of people transported between points A and B, and iteratively focusing on the points A and B with the maximum number of passengers. I don't think he's anti-long distance as such, but if the math works out that way I don't think he's going to let sentimentality drive decisions.
 
While your ideas have merit Tibike, there are large operational differences between airlines and trains that make general solutions somewhat problematic.

I'm not up on airline regulations, procedures or financial limitations. However, I assume that there is no cost to maintain the main piece of infrastructure an airplane uses...and that is the sky. While I'm sure there are designated flight paths and there me be fees to utilize them, I'm willing to bet there is no maintenance fee. I doubt planes are charged by the "wing" or the "number of engines". I'm willing to bet there isn't a charge based upon how fast the plane intends to travel in the flight path since I doubt there is someone in the sky, inspecting the flight path. That means there is unlikely a federal guideline indicating something similar to "This is Class III sky, so if a plane wants to exceed 200mph or use a jet engine, this flight path must be inspected weekly, clouds must be cleared and no plane with a propeller that doesn't maintain 199mph may use the flight path...if there is plane that exceeds 200mph within 10,000 feet vertical feet...unless there are passing sidings that are 40 miles long."

These ARE limitations that exist on train travel. It is quite easy to say "let's maximize frequency between certain pairs," until the hosts get involved. Some railroads charge by axle! Therefore, running more trains ramps up more access fees. Some railroads charge by the number of trains. Some railroads charge by the car. Some charge by the tonnage. Some railroads may use different charges on different routes. That makes a general solution problematic because there isn't a "general route" or "general fee" that exists. Trains have to follow the track and the owner of the track sets the bar and can assign fees. The bottom line is you can't assume that running more trains won;t DRAMATICALLY increase your contribution and nullify the revenue.

A perfect example is the second Pennsylvanian. That is coveted, state supported service that Pennsylvania desires. At one point, there were two trains. When the restoration of a second train was proposed, NS stated they wanted millions in infrastructure repairs, new sidings, new tracks, upgrades to the signal system, etc. CSX wanted almost a billion in infrastructure repairs to restore a train on a previous route that is still operation.

The large elephant in the room is PTC and who will assume the costs. This is where you might have hit the nail on the head Tibike. There are hosts that have basically said, if you want to use this route, you'll have to foot the costs of PTC. If in fact Amtrak did foot those costs, then they need bang for their buck. Running as many trains over their territory is a wise investment. However, what if the costs of the investment doesn't translate into ridership and/or revenue? Should you make the investment merely to keep "the system" together?

Well, that is the ultimate question and that once again boils down to, finances, revenue, ridership and politics. What is more important...revenue or ridership? I'm not from the west cost Tibike, so I'm going to need your help. Using the Coast Starlight as an example, you have stated that running it as separate corridor trains may stimulate ridership since the train is not helpful to people in CA. Am I understanding you correctly? If that is the case, it would make sense that the top city pairs for this train would be long distance passengers since this train isn't reliable for corridor service. Again, this makes sense. Now, the REVENUE from the LD pairs is going to be quite higher since typically, the greater the distance, the higher the fare. So, taking a train like the CS and breaking it into various trains may increase ridership but you'd have to hope the volume makes up for the potential loss in revenue from the long distance trip and the potential increase in fees. What if it doesn't?

A classic example is the Capitol Punishment....I mean errr Limited. On its own, this is dopey train. It has poor arrival times at the main city along the route (PGH) and poor connections (relatively short in one direction and too long in the other direction.) The intermediate markets are small and poorly served. However, if you attempt to change their schedules, NS has basically promised to paralyze the train....not that it should matter since they kind of do that anyway, so what harm is there in changing the times?
default_smile.png
However, from a system perspective, this train is a major west-south conduit. It funnels a great deal of through traffic between the east coast and the mid west. Altering the train would impact the entire system. So, if a host wants to pass the PTC costs along, a cursory look would suggest you kill this train because as a stand alone route, the finances of the city pair wouldn't justify the investment . However, an in depth look would make you have the opposite point of view. That is because the through ridership is there and with that comes revenue not only for the route, but for the system.

Speaking of the system, that is where politics comes into play. I know things are different now, but there are plenty of people that don't believe in trains. Period. If you want them, pay for them! That sounds logical but there are plenty of people that will not vote for funding a scattered system. In other words, it sounds good to say you're going to invest BILLIONS in the NEC....until someone in Kentucky says "Sure, as long as you continue to stop in Mayville!' and someone in Montana says "I'll allocate for a national system, which means Malta. So if you think you're turning the Empire Builder into two trains between CHI-MSP along with one SEA-SPK train, you've have another thing coming!"

The trains are shorter now then they have ever been. However, I think that is because of slightly better utilization and assignment. That may also be because revenue (higher fares) are trumping ridership numbers (lowering fares may drive up the numbers but may not translate into revenue.). Additionally, shorter trains traveling shorter distances doesn't necessarily mean less maintenance or less head count. Quite often, it means just the opposite. Short distance intercity trains must have a calendar day inspection lust like a Long Distance train ,except a long distance train can actually continue to its final repair point if a non-running gear defect is found en route. That is not the case for commuter or short distance intercity trains. Additionally, a delayed en route LD train can continue in service to its next calendar day inspection point. That is not the case with SD/COM trains. They can continue to the next inspection point, but not with the passengers. Multiple trains may need additional crews and crew bases. Again, this MAY not be an issue. It depends on the costs, the ridership and the revenue.

These are all major issues, Tibike. Where trains exist, I believe in multiple services. You already have the stations. You already have the mechanical forces available. You already have the crew base and commissary profile. If more trains can utilize them, that's better. So, I'm not saying your idea for breaking up the CS may not be a good idea. However, will the states fund it? If they kill the train, does that mean other states will fund what is left? Will Oregon willingly fork over money to invest in the NEC? Our new CEO may believe so but I really don't think that is the case. We could lose it all.

We may find out soon enough. My prediction is a push to corridor type trains, financed by the states. We may not have a choice. If that fails, you'll see a nod to sustaining the system by running a perfunctory train with minimal amenities and a puny consist. The rest of the equipment will be diverted to other places in the system to feed corridor type service. Again, this may NOT be the end of the world, depending on how it is accomplished.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Coast Starlight is helpful to Californians, but not as useful as the Surfliner or the Capitol Corridor in my experience, or, I'm guessing, the San Joaquins. From my Salinas perspective, the Starlight isn't as reliable or conveniently scheduled a way of getting to LA or the Bay Area or Sacramento as the bus/corridor train alternatives. For travel north of Sacramento, it's not very useful at all, because it's a graveyard shift run in either direction.

I'm not saying trains and planes are the same, but passengers are passengers. Conveniently timed, reliably run, comfortable service between LA and the Bay Area might be attractive enough to pull a sufficient number of passengers to make it worthwhile. So might Redding to the Bay Area -- that's in the too close to fly, too far to drive sweet spot (I've done both). Daytime or overnight service to Portland might be viable, but I doubt overnight Bay Area to Seattle would be sufficiently competitive (or LA to Portland) -- however you do it, it'll take a day and a night and that's difficult to justify for anything other than leisure travel or transportation of last resort.

I agree with you completely, TR7, about where things are likely headed. Expanded corridor service and skeletal, non-daily service elsewhere seems to fit both Anderson's vision of the business (transportation, not entertainment) and the mood of the administration. You have a far better grasp of the railroad business than I do, and I believe you when you say it's more complicated, in many respects at least, than airlines. But I'm betting that long distance service as we know it is not one of the choices on the table. It's either solve the problems and reshape service and schedules to maximise revenue/minimise empty seat-miles, or walk away from some routes completely.
 
These ARE limitations that exist on train travel. It is quite easy to say "let's maximize frequency between certain pairs," until the hosts get involved. Some railroads charge by axle! Therefore, running more trains ramps up more access fees. Some railroads charge by the number of trains. Some railroads charge by the car. Some charge by the tonnage. Some railroads may use different charges on different routes. That makes a general solution problematic because there isn't a "general route" or "general fee" that exists. Trains have to follow the track and the owner of the track sets the bar and can assign fees. The bottom line is you can't assume that running more trains won;t DRAMATICALLY increase your contribution and nullify the revenue.
This gets back to what I have said a thousand times: the passenger operators, or the state & local governments, need to own the tracks. It's unacceptable for freight operators to own the tracks. Nowhere else in the world does it, and there's good reason for that.
We're getting there a step at a time. It may happen eventually.
 
As for less-than-daily service, Anderson isn't an idiot. He won't propose *that*. Only complete and total idiots propose *that*. Anderson is not an idiot.

I will boldly predict that Anderson would kill the Sunset Limited or the Cardinal outright before he'd downgrade any daily train to less-than-daily service. Because he's not *stupid*.
 
But I'm betting that long distance service as we know it is not one of the choices on the table. It's either solve the problems and reshape service and schedules to maximise revenue/minimise empty seat-miles, or walk away from some routes completely.

Your last sentence says it all....but it comes with a rub. If you walk away from some routes completely, how will that impact the rest of the system politically and financially? Times have changed but I just don't see other states basically funding what would amount to as a mostly Northeast/East system.
 
Walking away from significant LD routes will cause the rest of the routes to progressively fold. Historically closure of routes never lived upto their advertised advantages, except when they were done simply because of lack of equipment to run a route viably. Financially they were as often as not negative.
 
I'm assuming you mean the rest of the long distance routes would fold? Or is there history that shows downgrading LD routes has a significant negative effect on corridor/city pair travel? You imply that there were times when closing routes had a positive impact. I get it that the advertised benefits never materialised, but that's not the same as no benefit at all. I'm betting that if any given service reduction or elimination shows a better than even chance of improving the bottom line, Anderson will look kindly upon it.

As TR7 wrote, there are both political and financial dimensions to consider, so maintaining some semblance of a national network might be necessary politically. Although there are plenty of examples of federally subsidised programs and services that primarily serve either rural or urban communities, but not both. In my business, telecoms, universal service programs subsidise mostly rural service, while lifeline program and economic development administration money goes mostly to people in urban areas. If rural and urban districts get funding for their top priorities, no one seems to worry that any given program doesn't benefit everyone equally.

Walking away from significant LD routes will cause the rest of the routes to progressively fold. Historically closure of routes never lived upto their advertised advantages, except when they were done simply because of lack of equipment to run a route viably. Financially they were as often as not negative.
 
It is a given that after the shutoff costs are paid off, shutting the whole thing down will show a remarkable improvement in the bottom line since it will be exactly no loss for ever.
default_smile.png
But that is not the reason that one runs a public service anyway, so that is moot.
 
But a fair question is "what should that public service be"? One possible answer is "the one that serves the maximum number of people". Not the maximum number of seat miles, but the raw passenger count. If focusing the service on high traffic corridors/pairs results in the daily passenger count going from X to 2X (or anything greater than 1X), there's an argument to be made that the public benefit has increased too.
 
Realistically one has to strike a balance between how much cost should be born by the commons in order to increase public utility of a service. One way to come to some fare conclusion is to account for the increase in economic activity that is enable by the increased mobility. Where there is belief in such there are interesting schemes in place for recapture of economic benefit in the form of diversion part of the local tax collection to improve mobility (i.e. increase ridership). Unfortunately in the US there is complete lack of belief in such except may be in a very few isolated places. Hence the whole discussion boils down to a zero sum game around money doled out from some pie in the sky with no connection or accountability for any related economic results positive or negative. that is why these discussions never arrive at any reasonable conclusion. And Anderson does not really have all the levers available to him to make it otherwise. So I just watch it with certain level of bemusement as we go around the block one more time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As for less-than-daily service, Anderson isn't an idiot. He won't propose *that*. Only complete and total idiots propose *that*. Anderson is not an idiot.

I will boldly predict that Anderson would kill the Sunset Limited or the Cardinal outright before he'd downgrade any daily train to less-than-daily service. Because he's not *stupid*.
Or he could go for a less-than-LD service. Take the Cardinal for example. For slightly less train miles per week the Cardinal could be restructured into daily 1RT CIN-CHI plus 1RT IND-CHI daytime coach trains. Presto! An inconvenient 3X weekly LD train becomes a useful corridor service. Higher ridership, lower costs. IMHO that is the future of passenger rail.
 
As for less-than-daily service, Anderson isn't an idiot. He won't propose *that*. Only complete and total idiots propose *that*. Anderson is not an idiot.

I will boldly predict that Anderson would kill the Sunset Limited or the Cardinal outright before he'd downgrade any daily train to less-than-daily service. Because he's not *stupid*.
Or he could go for a less-than-LD service. Take the Cardinal for example. For slightly less train miles per week the Cardinal could be restructured into daily 1RT CIN-CHI plus 1RT IND-CHI daytime coach trains. Presto! An inconvenient 3X weekly LD train becomes a useful corridor service. Higher ridership, lower costs. IMHO that is the future of passenger rail.
Such a train would require state funding at present as well as probably more coaches.
 
As for less-than-daily service, Anderson isn't an idiot. He won't propose *that*. Only complete and total idiots propose *that*. Anderson is not an idiot.

I will boldly predict that Anderson would kill the Sunset Limited or the Cardinal outright before he'd downgrade any daily train to less-than-daily service. Because he's not *stupid*.
Or he could go for a less-than-LD service. Take the Cardinal for example. For slightly less train miles per week the Cardinal could be restructured into daily 1RT CIN-CHI plus 1RT IND-CHI daytime coach trains. Presto! An inconvenient 3X weekly LD train becomes a useful corridor service. Higher ridership, lower costs. IMHO that is the future of passenger rail.
Presto! None of them will be feasible unless Indiana and Ohio pays for them under current law. And we know the likelihood of that happening.
default_wink.png
 
As for less-than-daily service, Anderson isn't an idiot. He won't propose *that*. Only complete and total idiots propose *that*. Anderson is not an idiot.

I will boldly predict that Anderson would kill the Sunset Limited or the Cardinal outright before he'd downgrade any daily train to less-than-daily service. Because he's not *stupid*.
Or he could go for a less-than-LD service. Take the Cardinal for example. For slightly less train miles per week the Cardinal could be restructured into daily 1RT CIN-CHI plus 1RT IND-CHI daytime coach trains. Presto! An inconvenient 3X weekly LD train becomes a useful corridor service. Higher ridership, lower costs. IMHO that is the future of passenger rail.
Presto! None of them will be feasible unless Indiana and Ohio pays for them under current law. And we know the likelihood of that happening.
default_wink.png
Nothing is feasible unless someone is willing to pay for it. If the private sector chooses not to provide passenger rail and the state governments declines to fund it then all of us passenger rail advocates are left sucking on fumes from the federal government. Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Anderson has the vision to work with Congress and restructure passenger rail in this country before the whole system comes crashing down.
 
The corridor concept presumes the states are willing and are financially capable to support these operations. Now if more interstate highways became toll roads, there would be more incentive to ride instead of drive.

I also see or saw Amtrak as a National Security operation in case the country needs alternate intercity transportation when an event like 9/11 or worse occurs. I have talked with a couple men from Congress, who believe the airline shutdown like happen on 9/11 can never happen again. I don't agree, I think it is a matter of time.
 
Back
Top