Reusing frozen food items after a train's run

[Henry Kisor]

I'm trying to find out if it meets FDA (and Amtrak) regulations for dining car personnel to return unused frozen food items to commissaries after a train ends its run so that the items can go out again on another train.

Anyone here with special knowledge about that question?

 

[rrdude]

As long as it stays "At Temp" (meaning frozen the whole time, or refrigerated the whole time) and doesn't "die" from the use-by date, there is absolutely no reason that product cannot go back to the commissary.

Amtrak has a HUGE challenge though, in that many times stock is offloaded onto commissary wagons, and once on the wagon, it goes bad, as it sits in the sun for 20-30 minutes........before going back to into inventory

(and, there are times when the HEP goes off, and the stock has to be condemned)

 

[ne52]

If it's never defrosted, moved directly, and within the expiration date, it should be OK if done correctly. Sorry, I'm not sure about FDA regulations but you should be able to search for a checklist that a state health inspector would use. The FDA guidelines are probably pretty similar. It has to move directly from one place to the other and be covered during transport to prevent contamination.

The main danger is allowing it to defrost while moving. Once that happens, it should not be refrozen without cooking first. If not cooked in time, it has to be tossed. Failing to do so would be the danger and also a ding on any inspection. Since it likely was transported over the road, through distribution centers, and onto the train, it's just an additional leg if it stays frozen. Warehouses and distribution centers are designed to minimize spoilage during this movement. Train stations are not and the outside climate is going to have a huge impact on the window for that movement (5 minutes in LA summer sun vs. 30 minutes in Chicago winter).

That all being said, unless it's full of preservatives, there is a noticeable difference in quality/taste if temperature fluctuates, even while under the freeze point. Temperatures in different parts of the supply chain are planned to prevent too many spikes one way or the other.

 

[Henry Kisor]

Thanks, RRDude and ne52. Your answers are good and commonsensical. But I am trying to find a present or past Amtrak OBS crew member with personal experience in this situation, preferably one who can cite FDA regs as well as Amtrak regs.

 

[OBS]

Thanks, RRDude and ne52. Your answers are good and commonsensical. But I am trying to find a present or past Amtrak OBS crew member with personal experience in this situation, preferably one who can cite FDA regs as well as Amtrak regs.

I haven't taken the time to look up the "reg's" , but my experience has been, If frozen, it is returned to commissary and reused. If thawed, but individuallly packaged and not opened, is often reissued same/next day for immediate usage. If Bulk packaged and opened/thawed is trashed. This pretty much follows the guidelines in both Amtrak/FDA reg's, but as I said, I haven't looked them up today to quote specifically.

 

[John Webb]

After 10 years in Amtrak's On-Board Services during which I watched first hand what happens to frozen and refrigerated food items I am justified in saying that any unsold item (even if it is prior to it's "toss date") should be tossed and the end of trip.

As LSA on the San Joaquin (numerous trips on the Zephyr) I witnessed, time after time, thee following series of events:

1) food would be unloaded from frozen (or refrigerated) storage in the commissary onto a truck or cart to sit for 45 mins to up to an hour to be counted by the incoming LSA for his initial inventory.

2) Then there would be the 10-15 minute trip from the commissary to trainside for loading.

3) Then there would be a 5 - 10 minute delay as the LSA got his car unlocked and ready to receive the food.

4) Then the loading process onto the car would take perhaps 20 minutes.

5) At this point frozen and refrigerated food items would be on a counter or table in the cafe car for a while and finally,

6) after a minimum of 1.25 hours outside cold storage the food would be transferred into cold (hopefully) boxes on the train. I say hopefully because very frequently the train been sitting overnight with out power and the cold storage boxes would be as hot as the weather outside (this was the San Joaquin, mind you going down California's Central Valley to Bakersfield. Not unusual to have triple digit temperatures). So there would be an additional delay in getting the temperature down to safe levels for consumption. This delay would vary depending on how efficient the yard crews were in getting power to the cars.

It often seemed to me that the mind-set of the yard forces (by this I mean the electricians that actually hooked up the cables and those Amanagers supervising them) was based on how comfortable the air felt and how soon the car would be occupied by passengers. There seemed to be little awareness that a hot cafe car needed to have power for a good hour to cool down it's refers to an acceptable and safe level for food storage. So, if a train was hot and food was being loaded an hour before departure (and the first food sales) the Amanagers would not be worried, because in their minds the power could be turned on 10 minute before boarding and the passengers would be none the wiser.

Of course, they did not think about, or worry themselves about all the bacteria busily multiplying in the hot food in the hot freezers in the hot cafe car.

Even after the food storage boxes had cooled down they still had to make the round trip to Bakersfield. Often the power would be cut off for varying times in Bakersfield.

So, I think, based on my personal experience it is just too dicey for any perishable food item to make more than a single trip on a Amtrak train. To much can and does go wrong. If the item is unsold at the end a trip, especially a round trip, toss it and be safe.

 

[benjibear]

Sounds like a very inefficient process.

 

[Greg]

I've noticed many times that the raspberry sorbet desert appears to have thawed and been refrozen. It's pink for about the first 1/4 inch and then it's deep red the rest of the way down if it's been thawed. When it's not been thawed, it's deep red all the way through.

 

[FriskyFL]

Who's hungry!

 

[EB_OBS]

What I have observed for years now is that;

1. Food items are picked and palletized inside the freezer & cooler

2. The LSA & Chef count their stock on the pallet in the cooler

3. The pallet is taken by pallet jack or fork-lift directly to a refrigerated box truck

4. The truck is unloaded train side directly into the car's freezers and coolers

Perishable food items are not out "in the danger zone" for hours while loading & unloading.

FDA guidelines allow for up to four hours before a food item must be either cooked or discarded.

 

[OBS]

What I have observed for years now is that;

1. Food items are picked and palletized inside the freezer & cooler

2. The LSA & Chef count their stock on the pallet in the cooler

3. The pallet is taken by pallet jack or fork-lift directly to a refrigerated box truck

4. The truck is unloaded train side directly into the car's freezers and coolers

Perishable food items are not out "in the danger zone" for hours while loading & unloading.

FDA guidelines allow for up to four hours before a food item must be either cooked or discarded.

This is exactly the procedure I observed in Wash DC when working food service on 29 and 51(superliner) Ivy City yard.

Trains loaded/unloaded in the station spend slightly more time with food outside of refrigeration.

 

[rrdude]

What I have observed for years now is that;

1. Food items are picked and palletized inside the freezer & cooler

2. The LSA & Chef count their stock on the pallet in the cooler

3. The pallet is taken by pallet jack or fork-lift directly to a refrigerated box truck

4. The truck is unloaded train side directly into the car's freezers and coolers

Perishable food items are not out "in the danger zone" for hours while loading & unloading.

FDA guidelines allow for up to four hours before a food item must be either cooked or discarded.

This is exactly the procedure I observed in Wash DC when working food service on 29 and 51(superliner) Ivy City yard.

Trains loaded/unloaded in the station spend slightly more time with food outside of refrigeration.

I too observed this decades ago when Amtrak ran the commissaries, as an LSA out of Chicago. We were "lucky" in Chicago, because we got all the new stuff, and were the test site for new policies, some of which were what EB_OBS pointed out. (Stack on pallet in freezer, count in freezer, go directly to train-side) BUT, occasionally the train which was supposed to be ready or unlocked was not, but soon they changed that, and kept the food IN the freezer/reefer until they got a call (via two-way radio) from the TM or OBS super.

It was at OTHER CREW BASES were I witnessed food sitting on carts/wagons, or similar descriptions that John Webb pointed out.

I think now that most of the commissary work is outsourced, there is a much better chance that a national food service provider is more acutely aware of proper food handling, and wouldn't want to do anything to risk losing the Amtrak contract..

 

[Henry Kisor]

Thanks to all for the interesting and authoritative responses. I originally asked the question because someone on another forum implied that there was a huge problem of theft by Amtrak crew from leftover food items at the ends of runs. Maybe there is. I still haven't been able to figure out the truth because of lack of authoritative responses on that forum.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Several years ago I was on the Crescent with someone from 60 Mass. Ave who was responsible for safe food handling. I chatted with them some and they seemed like a very nice person, but the OBS seemed pretty hostile towards their presence, especially when said person was giving them advice on things like safe food storage....

...Come to think of it, it was on the Crescent a little later that I had the worst meal I've ever had on Amtrak - catfish that had the consistency of frozen, thawed, frozen and thawed fish... Yum yum!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

A couple years ago during the pre-departure Wine & Cheese on the Lake Shore Limited the crowd was small and the Wine, Cheese, Crackers and Fresh Fruit were plentiful with the Servers coming by regularly with top ups. When I asked if I could get a couple more cubes of Blu Cheese, the Server returned with an entire unopened 8 ounce package and said it would have to be tossed anyways. Likewise the friend I was traveling with was given a handful of Apples to hold him over until Breakfast.

I gorged myself with as much as I could comfortably hold and since this was a Winter run we had the deadhead Lounge in consist; I stashed the remains in the cooler there and nipped at them all the way to NYC :unsure: