Reserve Fleet, Retention Toilets and such logistical matters

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

AmtrakBlue

Engineer
Gathering Team Member
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
15,570
Location
Delaware
Terrible experience on Zephyr. Never will step foot on Amtrak again.

Boarded in Emeryville on Friday, Aug. 18 2023. Train was one hour late with no explanation.

When we were about 4 or 5 hours outside Salt Lake City, a vague announcement was made that the train would terminate in SLC. Options were to stay on train and return to Emeryville or to get off in SLC and fend for yourselves.

We were told to call the Amtrak phone number which was impossible because there was no cell service. And of course we all know the train has no wi fi service either!

So we were left off in SLC at about 4:30 am, in the pitch black.

Many many people were upset. Some people who lived in the Emeryville area stayed on the train and returned home. The rest of us are stranded, paying for rental cars, flights, hotels, etc.

Amtrak……never again!

The reason we were given was because a track was washed out. Ok, things happen, but you don’t ditch your passengers in the middle of the night! But, oh yes you do, you’re Amtrak.
They did not "ditch you in the middle of the night". They left you off at an enclosed station in a large city when it was almost daylight.
Did you bother to try to call Amtrak once you were at the station - where there most likely was cell service?

Sounds like train travel is not for you.
 
They did not "ditch you in the middle of the night". They left you off at an enclosed station in a large city when it was almost daylight.
Did you bother to try to call Amtrak once you were at the station - where there most likely was cell service?

Sounds like train travel is not for you.
The website says the station closes at 5am. I wonder whether they kept the station open and staffed until a decent hour, or kicked everyone out 30 minutes after they'd arrived.

It also would have been a nice gesture to bring in donuts and coffee. I'm not familiar with SLC, but I have to assume that at best it has a few vending machines with very limited selection, if they're not out of order.
 
Too bad they don't have enough operable equipment to capture the demand.
Back when the major railroads still offered long distance passenger service, extra sleeping cars would be added depending on the demand for bedrooms on a particular train and date. We don't expect the bedroom situation on long distance Amtrak trains to improve anytime soon.
 
Last edited:
Back when the major railroads still offered long distance passenger service, extra sleeping cars would be added depending on the demand for bedrooms on a particular train and date. We don't expect the bedroom situation on long distance Amtrak trains to improve anytime soon.
They also would run "Specials" and Extra Sections when demand was heavy since Railroads had so much equipment and Staff back in the day!
 
Too bad there aren't a bunch of stored "rail-ready" Heritage sleepers that could be used on LD trains as a temporary fix for the high demand until new equipment arrives (if ever). They could be placed between the baggage car and Trans dorm with access to the showers in the Superliner sleepers. I'd be more than happy to spend the night in a Heritage bedroom or roomette again with thick mattresses and beds parallel to the window in some of the bedroom configurations!
Just dreaming........
 
That's exactly what I had heard also which is also why they got rid of the Slumbercoaches. That is a real shame and they should have been able to come up with a retention toilet by now. But forget about the Retenion toilets altogether! This in my opinion is another case of over regulation to please the environmentalists.

The trains had toilets that were non retention for years and releasing them from a fast moving train on road bed really doesn't damage the environment the way they say it will. We are not talking about dangerous chemicals. If human and animal waste was so dangerous than fields and emptry lots would be declared dangerous.

Their crazy rules just cost Amtrak and rail passengers money and alot of inconvenience.
Amtrak did have plans in the early days (before they made the toilets illegal) to retain a reserve fleet of heriitage cars to use for capacity problems just as you mentioned.
 
The trains had toilets that were non retention for years and releasing them from a fast moving train on road bed really doesn't damage the environment the way they say it will. We are not talking about dangerous chemicals. If human and animal waste was so dangerous than fields and emptry lots would be declared dangerous.
I believe the straw that broke the camel's back was an incident where human waste was dropped from a train toilet while a train was going over a bridge that didn't have a solid bridge deck. The stuff landed on a couple of fishermen in a boat just under the bridge. Also, I don't think track workers appreciated finding the stuff lying around. And human waste is kind of dangerous, that's why our society is so particular about keeping the general population away from sewage and treating it whenever possible.
 
Too bad there aren't a bunch of stored "rail-ready" Heritage sleepers that could be used on LD trains as a temporary fix for the high demand until new equipment arrives (if ever). They could be placed between the baggage car and Trans dorm with access to the showers in the Superliner sleepers. I'd be more than happy to spend the night in a Heritage bedroom or roomette again with thick mattresses and beds parallel to the window in some of the bedroom configurations!
Just dreaming........
Why should Amtrak bother to spend money to increase capacity at lower fares? They're filling up the trains with half the number of sleeping cars and charging twice as much! I'll be interested to see their bottom-line financial figures at the end of the fiscal year.
 
I believe the straw that broke the camel's back was an incident where human waste was dropped from a train toilet while a train was going over a bridge that didn't have a solid bridge deck. The stuff landed on a couple of fishermen in a boat just under the bridge. Also, I don't think track workers appreciated finding the stuff lying around. And human waste is kind of dangerous, that's why our society is so particular about keeping the general population away from sewage and treating it whenever possible.
Yeah, the fact that for years there were direct drop on track toilets therefore it was OK is a rather weak argument. For years the main sewage system was the middle of the street too. That is not an argument against having a proper sewage system or insisting everyone use Septic Tanks either.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the fact that for years there were direct drop on track toilets therefore it was OK is a rather weak argument. For years the main sewage system was the middle of the street too. That is not an argument against having a proper sewage system or insisting everyone use Septic Tanks either.
Absolutely. An example of one of many instances where just because something was done differently “back then” doesn’t mean it’s better. Some changes occur for good reasons.
 
That's exactly what I had heard also which is also why they got rid of the Slumbercoaches. That is a real shame and they should have been able to come up with a retention toilet by now. But forget about the Retenion toilets altogether! This in my opinion is another case of over regulation to please the environmentalists.
Working on the tracks should not come with the risk of bio hazards. Amtrak should have just rebuild those cars along with more of the heritage sleeper fleet.
They could have pulled out 1-2 rooms and put the bathroom in a single place to make it easier to convert.
 
Too bad there aren't a bunch of stored "rail-ready" Heritage sleepers that could be used on LD trains as a temporary fix for the high demand until new equipment arrives (if ever). They could be placed between the baggage car and Trans dorm with access to the showers in the Superliner sleepers. I'd be more than happy to spend the night in a Heritage bedroom or roomette again with thick mattresses and beds parallel to the window in some of the bedroom configurations!
Just dreaming........
Since these cars were last made in the early 1950's, they would 70+ years old by now. Even for good quality railroad equipment, that is pushing it. Despite this, some of these cars are still rolling.

Talking about running old equipment, it is also worth mentioning that the L&N rebuilt the "General" in 1962 to replicate the "Great Locomotive Chase" that happened in 1862 during the War Between the States on its centennial. Despite being 100+years old and having spent many years on display in the NC&StL - L&N passenger station in Chattanooga, it was refurbished to operating condition to literally run under its own steam. Along with that was refurbishment of a not much younger coach to run with it. After replication of the chase, it ran around the system giving short to medium free rides in cities throughout the L&N system. These runs were all done under its own power, that is, without a diesel engine to assist. The main concession to modernity was converting to use diesel fuel instead of wood for the fire, and mounting of air brakes and knuckle couplers in order to comply with the Railway Safety Appliance Act of 1895? which outlawed link and pin couplers. The front link stayed for appearance sake, so if not moving under its own power it had to be pushed/pulled from the back of the tender. I got to ride behind it once during the about week it spent in Memphis giving free rides in a loop in the city. Neither this nor many other of its rides could be replicated today, if for no better reason, the track is no longer there. Plus, it probably would cause offense to many of those who seeming profession is to be offended because it essentially celebrated a Confederate thwarting of a Yankee attempt at railroad sabotage. The thwarting effort started by the conductor of the hijacked train chasing it on foot until he was able to commandeer another engine.
 
If I recall correctly, a small number of the 10-6's were indeed rebuilt with retention toilets and used on the Night Owl/Executive Sleeper and the Three Rivers. Their initial use on the NEC was due to the Executive Sleeper being parked for much of the night in Penn Station and there was no certainty to which of the Night Owl's sleepers would be chosen on a particular night. When the Three Rivers received its sleepers they were 10-6's withdrawn from storage with a waiver for the toilets, then a modified 10-6 filling in until sufficient Viewliners were available. I'm guessing the mid 90's to around 2004? One of the modified sleepers (Pacific Cape?) was still used on Amtrak executive trains and others were sold to private users.
 
Last edited:
Regarding restoring the General to operating condition and
After replication of the chase, it ran around the system giving short to medium free rides in cities throughout the L&N system.
It also roamed far beyond the L&N. It made a stop at Ashland, VA (RF&P) while I was in college there. I rode it to the next town and wrote an article for our newspaper. Great trip - but never took a photo!

So, while restoring of heritage cars would have been good, it’s certainly more cost effective to just provide good regular maintenance on existing fleet. There’s a reason the cars Amtrak inherited were from roads that did that. Amtrak chooses to ignore that lesson.
 
Since these cars were last made in the early 1950's, they would 70+ years old by now. Even for good quality railroad equipment, that is pushing it. Despite this, some of these cars are still rolling.

Talking about running old equipment, it is also worth mentioning that the L&N rebuilt the "General" in 1962 to replicate the "Great Locomotive Chase" that happened in 1862 during the War Between the States on its centennial. Despite being 100+years old and having spent many years on display in the NC&StL - L&N passenger station in Chattanooga, it was refurbished to operating condition to literally run under its own steam. Along with that was refurbishment of a not much younger coach to run with it. After replication of the chase, it ran around the system giving short to medium free rides in cities throughout the L&N system. These runs were all done under its own power, that is, without a diesel engine to assist. The main concession to modernity was converting to use diesel fuel instead of wood for the fire, and mounting of air brakes and knuckle couplers in order to comply with the Railway Safety Appliance Act of 1895? which outlawed link and pin couplers. The front link stayed for appearance sake, so if not moving under its own power it had to be pushed/pulled from the back of the tender. I got to ride behind it once during the about week it spent in Memphis giving free rides in a loop in the city. Neither this nor many other of its rides could be replicated today, if for no better reason, the track is no longer there. Plus, it probably would cause offense to many of those who seeming profession is to be offended because it essentially celebrated a Confederate thwarting of a Yankee attempt at railroad sabotage. The thwarting effort started by the conductor of the hijacked train chasing it on foot until he was able to commandeer another engine.
There is an addendum to your account of the refurbished General's tour in the 1960s. The engine was at the center of an ownership tug of war between the L&N and the city of Chattanooga. The details of the second hijacking of the General are pretty well covered in this short article. As a kid in the middle 50s I remember seeing the General on display in Union Station and Judge Wilson's description of that display was sadly accurate. The General was on the official city seal until it was moved to Kennesaw becasue the city had raised funds to preserve it when it was scheduled to be scrapped.

Kelley's Raiders

The Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum maintains what is left of Chattanooga's passenger rail heritage and do an admirable job. I have ridden several of their 1920s and later coaches on various excursions.
 
If I recall correctly, a small number of the 10-6's were indeed rebuilt with retention toilets and used on the Night Owl/Executive Sleeper and the Three Rivers. Their initial use on the NEC was due to the Executive Sleeper being parked for much of the night in Penn Station and there was no certainty to which of the Night Owl's sleepers would be chosen on a particular night. When the Three Rivers received its sleepers they were 10-6's withdrawn from storage with a waiver for the toilets, then a modified 10-6 filling in until sufficient Viewliners were available. I'm guessing the mid 90's to around 2004? One of the modified sleepers (Pacific Cape?) was still used on Amtrak executive trains and others were sold to private users.
What I recall of the "Executive Sleeper" while it was parked occupied it NYP, was that they placed "honey buckets" under the car, in case any toilets were flushed while the car was in the station. I don't recall them having retention toilets, but perhaps they did later on...
In addition, the first two Viewliner sleeper prototypes, which did have retention toilets, their initial use was for the Executive Sleeper. When not available, they would substitute a 10-6....
 
What I recall of the "Executive Sleeper" while it was parked occupied it NYP, was that they placed "honey buckets" under the car, in case any toilets were flushed while the car was in the station. I don't recall them having retention toilets, but perhaps they did later on...
The "honey bucket" system was the norm for drop off and early occupancy sleepers throughout the country for many years. In the mid 1950's my parents came in (into Memphis) on the Panama Limited's drop off sleeper once when I was in my early teens, and I rode with my grandfather to pick them up. Remember the splash of one of the buckets being used while waiting for them to get out. Got to walk in and look at the bunks down bedroom setup. I know he made several trips in section sleepers during WW2, and my mother had made a few trips to/from Washington DC in coach during the late 1930's (Pullman? No way I am spending that kind of money.), so this was their first, and I think only trip in a room sleeper.
 
Last edited:
My last trip on the Executive Sleeper was early 90's from WAS to NYP with the wee-hours arrival and the ability to occupy the car (and have breakfast onboard) until after dawn. I was fortunate to have a chatty SCA who knew the service was disappearing, which was partially dictated by the poor ridership. The car was empty on departure and I was upgraded to a bedroom from my booked roomette. He explained the operation of the "new" toilet and that both my sleeper and the through Boston one were modified since they never knew which would overnight in Penn. He also mentioned the unpleasant prior procedure and how these cars were destined to move to the "New Broadway" when the ES was eventually cancelled.

The remaining one made an appearance on an Amtrak business train within the last couple of years - either on YouTube or a VR railcam.
 
Back
Top