"Rail Security Drill Involves 150 Amtrak Stations"

[Ispolkom]

I found this in the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/nyregion...amp;oref=slogin

For me, the money quote is: "You have to ask yourself if this isn’t just security theater."

A question for The Traveller: any SWAT teams at KIN?

 

[the_traveler]

I happened to be at KIN for the 10:37 AM southbound departure. However, except for the (usual) 10-15 people boarding, I did not see any unusual Police around. (If I did, it would be unusual!)

However, I did see a Hi-Railer drive by - twice - on each track! (Isn't that what they call the truck on the rails? :huh: ) That was unusual!

(And my name only has 1 "L" :lol: but I'll forgive you - this time!)

 

[ralfp]

It's funny how the Amtrak Police, the TSA, etc. think that "checking ID" (whatever that means) will stop a terrorist. Perhaps they're looking for "terrorist" under an "occupation" field in the new state IDs & DLs.

"Darnell Donahue, who was boarding a train to Boston at Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan on Tuesday morning, said he did not notice the additional security “until I came to get in line and saw that there was a big line to get on the train.”
By making people form large groups in public spaces the police are saving the terrorists a few bucks, as there's no longer a need to get on board. Perhaps it's to keep the rolling stock and tracks safe?

 

[Ryan]

So that's what that was!

I noted the significantly larger than usual police presence at WAS when I came off my MARC commuter at about 6:30 this morning...

 

[ralfp]

A few months ago at NYP there were a few Amtrak cops in body armor and M4s (in addition to a few dozen regular Amtrak & NYPD cops) standing around in the lower level. I wonder what those weapons are good for in tight crowded spaces? There's nothing like full auto fire in crowded hallways (or do they have the 3-round burst models?).

It's all theater.

 

[navydevildoc]

Regarding the M4s... they could be 3 round burst (M4A2) or full auto (M4A1).

In close quarters, they are actually quite effective. If they are smart and have some optics on the top rail, a skilled rifleman can take out a single person in a crowd without harming others. Considering that they could be facing someone with body armor, a rifle is needed to deliver the punch from afar.

While I consider the weapon highly effective and probably a good choice, this just sounds like a good dose of "don't worry, everything is fine" theater to me.

 

[Ispolkom]

I happened to be at KIN for the 10:37 AM southbound departure. However, except for the (usual) 10-15 people boarding, I did not see any unusual Police around. (If I did, it would be unusual!)
However, I did see a Hi-Railer drive by - twice - on each track! (Isn't that what they call the truck on the rails? :huh: ) That was unusual!

(And my name only has 1 "L" :lol: but I'll forgive you - this time!)

Out here in Minnesota I see road-rail pickups quite frequently, even on urban tracks, but I'd hate to be in one on your line with an Acela coming up behind at 130+ m.p.h. "Objects in mirror are closer than they appear" indeed.

Sorry about the extra l. I've been trying to break myself of double l's (traveller, cancelled, etc.) since that's a British spelling, but it's tough for this old dog to break a habit.

 

[frj1983]

Of course it's all "theater!" (by the way I like that assignation)

All of this makes Joe/Joan in the street think they're doing something to keep us "secure" with our tax dollars. The only "very secure" thing is their hands on our money! Sigh, anyone got a time machine out there?

 

[Tygercat]

There was a sizable number of police officers from at least 3 jurisdictions yesterday at BWI rail station about 7AM. They even had a rather noisy K-9 there. I did not see anyone stopped or challenged, and did not see anything out of the ordinary by the time my MARC train got to WAS about 8:15. There wasn't any extra police presence for the return trip around 5:30. I guess the exercise was just during the early morning commute.

 

[haolerider]

Of course it's all "theater!" (by the way I like that assignation)
All of this makes Joe/Joan in the street think they're doing something to keep us "secure" with our tax dollars. The only "very secure" thing is their hands on our money! Sigh, anyone got a time machine out there?

I think I would rather have them do a drill like this for the sake of practicing, rather than have an event and have the police not fullly prepared. Compared to the money spent on the Iraq war, this one day drill is peanuts. If I remember correctly, the entire country was singing the praises of police and firemen after the 9/11 disaster.

 

[Mark]

I don't feel any safer at the Airports either, just more hassled.

 

[Guest_George Harris_*]

If they are smart and have some optics on the top rail, a skilled rifleman can take out a single person in a crowd without harming others.

Only as long as nobody moves while you are making sure of your target and squeezing the trigger. Anybody who thinks this is a reasonable plan should not be allowed to have anything more lethal than a cork gun. This sort of thinking is how the wrong person gets shot becuase someone either moved or the shooter forgot about pentration.

 

[ralfp]

In close quarters, they are actually quite effective. If they are smart and have some optics on the top rail, a skilled rifleman can take out a single person in a crowd without harming others. Considering that they could be facing someone with body armor, a rifle is needed to deliver the punch from afar.
While I consider the weapon highly effective and probably a good choice, this just sounds like a good dose of "don't worry, everything is fine" theater to me.

Given that "afar" in those corridors is not very far (people or walls get in the way), I don't see the benefit of accuracy at long range. If they were guarding rail yards or other outdoor areas with no crowds, fine. I fail to see the non-theatrical benefits of such a weapon when the officers carrying said weapons stand in a group, facing each other, amongst crowds of people, in a spot where the farthest you can see is 20-50 feet, and do so for an hour or more. (Ah, the joys of a canceled train).

Send them to Sunnyside or to walk along the NEC tracks.

One benefit I do see is that it would be harder to grab an M4 than an M9 (or similar) from a police officer.

 

[Ryan]

Even at 50 feet, a pistol is darn rear worthless.

Add to that the fact that you have twice as many rounds in the clip, and those weapons are hardly without benefit.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

When I was on the CZ going through denver during the dem convention there were a ton of police and security from a bunch of different agencies including amtrak police, "federal agents" all with body armor and m4s and in Nebraska a dog came aboard and went through the whole train. They walked through the diner during breakfast asking for photo ids

 

[ralfp]

When I was on the CZ going through denver during the dem convention there were a ton of police and security from a bunch of different agencies including amtrak police, "federal agents" all with body armor and m4s and in Nebraska a dog came aboard and went through the whole train. They walked through the diner during breakfast asking for photo ids

Did they check the IDs against any list (or even your ticket)? If not, what's the point (besides getting people accustomed to living in a "papers please" society)?

Makes me wonder what you should do if your ID is stolen while you're on the train. Do they kick you off for not having the required ID if you report the theft?

 

[Long Train Runnin']

No they were just matching faces to the ID cards and were ok with me not having mine. I was wearing cotton knit pants and smilled and said all i had was a some singes to leave as a tip and my id was in my room and they just walked on

 

[George Harris]

No they were just matching faces to the ID cards and were ok with me not having mine. I was wearing cotton knit pants and smilled and said all i had was a some singes to leave as a tip and my id was in my room and they just walked on

Makes me think of quite a few years ago when they were playing ID check on an airplane flight that was me plus younger children. The announcement was, if you were 16 years of age or older you had to show an ID. Since we had just come from overseas, we all had passports in pocket. When my son, who was in front of me got to the man, he said, "I'm 15" and they said OK and let him go without porving anything. At that time he 2 months short of his 16th birthday and was 6'-0" and weighed 180 pounds. After we got on the plane his comment was, "That was useless. How could they possible know I wasn't lying to them."

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Even at 50 feet, a pistol is darn rear worthless.
Add to that the fact that you have twice as many rounds in the clip, and those weapons are hardly without benefit.

A guns purpose in crowded enviroments is much like a nuclear weapon in the scheme of the world. I pick up a gun and point it at you, you are being threatened by it. Thats all. A fool would pull the trigger in a crowded area, not a police officer- this is New York, not some other areas of the world where fools and cops can be one and the same

Range? Number of rounds in the clip? You are talking about USING it? Are you bloody crazy? And even if you do use it, having more than one, or maybe 2, rounds is entirely irrelevant. Are you going to start full-autoing at terrorists in the middle of Penn during rush hour?

I got this new terrorist tactic, and they can have it for free. What they do is, they just run laps around the great hall in Penn claiming they are terrorists and let the cops mow all the people down for them.