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caravanman

caravanman

Engineer
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Messages
4,816
Location
Nottingham, England.
I guess that I may be re-hashing old views, but I am honestly amazed at the gap between public transport and private vehicles in America.

This has a bearing on the view and funding of Amtrak by those holding the purse strings.

Here in Europe, to a large extent, public transport is being promoted as being ecologicaly sound, a help against global warming.

It amazes me that even when there is public transport available in the USA, people seem to look down on it as being only for those who cant afford a car, rather than as a good, less wasteful option.

I had a great trip from San Francisco up to Chicago, over to Buffalo, and then down to New york on Amtrak recently...we stayed in downtown Buffalo, and took a bus up to Niagara Falls. We got off in a one way street, and when it was time to get back to Buffalo, we didn't know where to catch the bus. We must have asked a dozen LOCAL people where to catch the bus, none of them knew, most were genuinly amazed that there might be such a bus!

We found the stop on our own, and lived to tell the tale...I guess its the same problem with trying to justify Amtraks needs to a non train using legislature!

Ed. B) ps it was fun walking to Canada and back!
 
I think its more of Americans sense of travel freedom and not having to work around schedules of the majority of public transport. Americans like to go where they want at what ever time they want too. It is a societal view, which I doubt will change.

The other major problem is the lack of extensive public transport in the countrys cities. Americans dont really like to ride the bus, but in most cities rail systems are to small to be effective.
 
To add to the comments: Here in this country (USA) we generally don't want our fuel taxes used for anything else except for highways. I thought that way for a long time until I grew up and realized the highways were a mess, and not getting any better. Amtrak is in the condition it is because of money. Maybe it'll take another fuel crisis to wake us up and smell the coffee.

Don't get me wrong. I like the freedom of the car, but I wonder how much longer that freedom will be around.

The people in Washington are swayed by lobbyists, some of whom are very powerful, like the oil companies and the car companies. So, guess what happens.
 
And global warming is nonsense according to W. He's made up his mind based on what it would cost big business to do something about it. Same deal with the abysmal average fuel effeciency of American-built vehicles. Increasing it (which would, of course, also lessen our dependence on terrorist oil) would cost $$ for GM/Ford et al, so that ain't gonna happen either. "Common" sense won't be common, and irrationality will continue to be the order of the day. I hope Amtrak survives him.
 
capltd29 said:
AmtrakWPK said:
I hope Amtrak survives him.
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Quite frankly, i hope whole American Economy survives him....
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Well said....

I just returned from a two week tour from Europe riding the rails there. Can't tell you how many times we just decided to go somewhere not know what time the next train left. It was easy, just go to the station, and we were on a train within an hour. Can't do that here. I long for the day, when I can go to the Houston train station, ask for the next train to Dallas and hop aboard on platform 50. Nope there is no train to Dallas. The next one is in two days and it only goes to Orlando, or New Orleans.

I rode everything from the Eurostar (Chunnel) to Spanish RENFE, to local 3 car trains. Even these small towns had departures all the time to where I wanted to go. Will we ever see that here? I'm optimistic. Now many argue, Europe is more dense, they have less space to operate cars. But is that really a reason to not have an extensive rail system? America can and will be dense one day also. Its not like we're losing people. But you can argue, Europeans have cars too. They drive alot too, but they also can take a train or a bus or even fly. Its called a network, something in which most Americans dont' understand. Excuse me but, not everyone owns a car, and flying is expensive still. 42,000 Americans die in car accidents each year. Sure makes me scared to drive, hoping someone I know or myself is not the next victim.

Yet Amtrak has potential! How many rude Amtrak employees have you run into the last few times? I sure haven't met any lately. Or think about Amtrak's service in general. It's superior. They know what they're doing. In my opionion, Amtrak service is better then many of Europes trains. I didn't meet too many willfully helpful employees in Europe. It was strictly do their job and move on. I'm not saying they were rude, but it was just there. Guess they weren't worried about their jobs being gone. (language barrier could have helped too). So I give Amtrak the points for trying at least. What can you do, when all you're fed is dog scraps, and then asked to perform at top standards?

Chris
 
I rode everything from the Eurostar (Chunnel) to Spanish RENFE, to local 3 car trains. Even these small towns had departures all the time to where I wanted to go. Will we ever see that here? I'm optimistic. Now many argue, Europe is more dense, they have less space to operate cars. But is that really a reason to not have an extensive rail system? America can and will be dense one day also. Its not like we're losing people. But you can argue, Europeans have cars too. They drive alot too, but they also can take a train or a bus or even fly. Its called a network, something in which most Americans dont' understand. Excuse me but, not everyone owns a car, and flying is expensive still. 42,000 Americans die in car accidents each year. Sure makes me scared to drive, hoping someone I know or myself is not the next victim.
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I certainly don't disagree with you that the USA needs more and better service.

However - I remember from my working days before I retired and traveled around Ohio from corner to corner. I always thought how nice it would have been to be able to get on a train in Columbus and be in Cleveland in a couple of hours.

But there was a problem to this wish. What would I do to finish the trip when I got there. Everyplace I needed to go in Cleveland was 20 miles from city center. Yes, Cleveland has a mass transit system, but never to where I wanted to go.

I lived about 30 minutes from Columbus center (in the direction of going to Cleveland). By the time I would drive downtown, park, wait for the train, do the reverse in Cleveland, I could drive there and be done with it.

That's the problem in the USA. Everything is so far apart, even when we get there, that it would be difficult.

The NEC is different. It is workable in Chicago and other large cities, but smaller places would be very difficult.

Just my 2-cents worth.
 
Southeast Florida has a pretty good combined system too, with Tri-Rail plus the other people-movers in Miami, and the public bus systems. All reasonably-well integrated. But as one of the posters noted, the U.S. really IS soooo spread-out compared to a very compact Europe. Many of our individual States are farther apart than a lot of the European countries. And there really isn't the population density here in most of the U.S. that makes the public transit systems viable and affordable in most of Europe. Plus, they were brought up with public mass transit as a family value. We generally weren't unless we were brought up in NYC or the like.

But the oil is GOING to run out. And God help us if we are still driving gas-guzzling SUVs and monster pickups when it happens, cause it ain't gonna be pretty. Of course, all those politicians who are standing there with their head in the sand will have drowned with the rising sea levels from the global warming that officially isn't happening, so maybe by then there will have been an interval of temporary sanity and some progress will have accidentally been made in all this. But I wouldn't count on it.......
 
Some of the other posters have hit on a couple of points with which I agree. We here in the US are accustomed to convienient travel, going where we want to ge when we want to go there. Ony one form of travel fits that right now: the car. Other forms of travel, we are reluctant to take. My parents are reluctant to take the train simply because it is 45 minutes' drive away, in a different town. The airport, OTOH, is 35 minutes drive, however it is withn town limits and is therefore "local."

Look at other things as well. How many folks drive to run all of their errands, set the kids off at soccer practice, etc, ? Ever try doing those things in your towns while on a bike, or by Bus alone? Train ridership, and the reluctance to ride any form of public transport is another expression of that same attitude.

*IN90 IFEQ ON

Then Rant

Population density: Certain States such as OH and PA have population densities that approach that of Germany or France (Source: US Census). If these two nations, despite their flaws, can have intercity rail, at several frequencies each day, why can't the states? Is it because the states lack the political will? Is it becuase certain government, non-profit, and other entites are unwilling to fund a passenger service provider (Amtrak is simply one example)? Is it because some of the population centers are close to state boundaries, and state-level legislators are ignorant or unwilling to spend money that might enable others to travel across state lines (even if the return trip is returning to their state)? Maybe what we should do is privatize all of the Interstates, and make them toll roads, privatize all of the airports (a la the old "union station" concept, where the tenants form a partnership, and have to buy stock in the real estate/property, inorder to have the priviledge of using it), and privatize the air traffic control system, and have the STB pick up the remainder of the FAA responsibilities. Get rid of the bailouts, the gas taxes (not going to need those, are we, when the roads are private for-profit enterprises. If you don't use a particular stretch of highway then you don't pay for it).

Or, we could fund the service provider, capitalize things properly this time around, and get numerous routes set up so that they function as a supplement to some of the regional and commuter airline routes. The stations would be the same as the airports. This would free up terminal space for more longer distance flights, and get more trains travelling more places.

End IF

/EndRant/

Sorry about that. Just had to vent.
 
Thank you all for your contributions, I enjoyed reading them. I am not anti-car, and I can sympathise with the fact that American cities have expanded a lot in tandem with the rise of car ownership. Cheap oil too of course helps stimulate car ownership.

Its more the complete divorce between just using the car, and not even thinking of taking public transport, of even being aware of its existence in your home town, as an option to the car!

I myself find American citizens to be much more friendly than those here in Europe, so I guess the train staff would be about the same!

As a European, I still find it odd that I am expected to get into my car in America, to drive 200 yards to the store..but dont get me started on that one.

Well, here's to the next amtrak journey, I wonder if they will clean the windows next time?

Ed. B)
 
caravanman said:
As a European, I still find it odd that I am expected to get into my car in America, to drive 200 yards to the store..but dont get me started on that one.
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:lol: What can we say, its actually 400 yards roundtrip. Dont want to break a sweat. :D
 
WICT106 said:
My parents are reluctant to take the train simply because it is 45 minutes' drive away, in a different town. The airport, OTOH, is 35 minutes drive, however it is withn town limits and is therefore "local."
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A comment to that --- you can arrive at the train station just a few minutes before the train does (assuming you already picked up your tickets or they were mailed), and you're good to go. Try that at the airport and the plane will have departed an hour and a half before you manage to make it to the gate. Same deal at the other end, just not quite so long a wait, usually, at the airport.

With Amtrak, at least at our closest station (WPK), there's also (Ahem!!) ***F*R*E*E*** parking, short or long term, in a pretty safe area, at a distance of less than 50' from the tracks. And no security stations where you have to do everything but take the fillings out of your teeth to get through the detectors. And you don't have to park your car 3/4 of a mile from the gate, walk or stand on a people-mover for a long trip to the terminal, then walk another half mile inside the terminal, all the while dragging your luggage with you, stand in long lines to check your luggage, then travel another half mile on foot and by tram or whatever, to finally get to the gate. Even if it was an hour LONGER to get to the train station than the airport, you'd likely start your actual travel sooner on the train, assuming you have been checking estimated arrival times.

Then when you have made the return trip, you walk the 50-75 feet from the tracks to your car, get in, and go home.

You don't have to pay $50 - $300+ to ransom your car from the parking garage after having walked most of a mile dragging your luggage behind you. I realize free parking isn't the case at ALL stations, but most of them that I've seen, it IS free parking.

When most people compare the train to the plane, they don't even consider this stuff, but I really think they should because all that stuff associated with flying is a real major irritant to most people, and they don't realize that with the train, it ain't there!! And if you do consider things like parking$$$$, the train becomes an even bigger bargain, especially for extended trips, where those airport parking$$$$ REALLY start to pile up. For other than an overnight trip, it's not unusual for the cost of parking at the airport to exceed the cost of the flight.
 
I stumbled across this interesting but imformative study about city demographics and transportation. This company is actually in Sweden but it uses alot of US cities for examples. If you think Americans love their cars and thats the only way to get anywhere, I have good news. Public transit ridership is up 21% here in the US over the last 5 years, and driving is only up 11%. We all may be old or dead, but I truly think this is a long term trend, as more cities are building and expanding their rail and improving bus systems. Public transit may not just be for the poor folks in 100 years.

Anyways, heres the link: link

Also at the bottom, tell me what you think about these "beam cars." Thats why I said this was interesting.

Chris
 
Back in the 1950s, president Eisenhower started up an enormous highway project that ended up –after decades of construction– giving us our huge suburbs, urban sprawl, and shopping centers; and destroying our city-centers. None of this was intended, but that’s what happened. If you look around here in the U.S., you will notice the general separation of places where people live from places where they work and shop. You will also notice a large proportion of homes with yards and multi-car garages relative to apartments. Look at how desolate, broken and empty our center-cities are relative to those in Europe. Americans depend on their cars: it’s dangerous to walk anywhere in most places. Our dependence on our cars holds us hostage to fuel prices, and has made the car a kind of religious object to some. We had several TV channels filled with hours and hours of live coverage of cars whirling around a race track this past weekend: a noisy church.

One man’s convenience is another man’s prison. I moved to the U.S. from Europe in 1995, and I’ve spent most of the past 10 years trying to find a way to live without a car. I’ve failed. I find the car a prison that isolates us out in the suburbs, keeps us away from each other, pollutes our air, robs us of $thousands each year, and kills and injures too many of us.
 
Reply to AmtrakWPK: One additional item that some folks forget to figure into the budget is the wear and tear to the car they're driving. It works out to something like US 0.40 per mile. That means that for a 300 mile trip, not only do they have to budget for fuel, they also do something on the order of $220 (at least) of wear and tear to the car they're driving. Sometimes driving seems less expensive only because people look at only the "out-of-pocket" costs like fuel.
 
AmtrakWPK said:
If they discontinue air service to Bermuda or Hawaii or Europe, I wanna watch!!  Must be quite a car!! :lol:   :lol:
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Aloha

Could be planning to use the floating bridge. :rolleyes: Couldn't resist.
 
There is another aspect to the creation of suburbia, viz., the proximity to one' neighbors. Although some suburbs are alo densely packed, most are far less so than the cities. Keep in mind that suburbia was partially a reaction to the closely-packed nature of the city. To be more specific, folks wanted at least a small patch of green space and did not wish to hear their neighbors' toilets, arguments, crying babies, etc. This is not necessarily an isolationist tendency, because in many cases, people want to have neighbors (someone who has kids to play with, who can keep an eye on the house when neighbors are away, etc.), but simply a desire to avoid some of the less pleasant issues of close promixity.

In the course of doing this, additional lifestyle trends and attititudes develop, many of which are not conducive to train travel. :(
 
[Certain States such as OH and PA have population densities that approach that of Germany or France (Source: US Census). If these two nations, despite their flaws, can have intercity rail, at several frequencies each day, why can't the states? Is it because the states lack the political will? Is it becuase certain government, non-profit, and other entites are unwilling to fund a passenger service provider (Amtrak is simply one example)? ]

Those are exactly the reasons why there is no rail service, although it's been assigned a corridor designation I believe, connecting Cleveland, Columbus and Cinncinati.
 
AmtrakWPK said:
If they discontinue air service to Bermuda or Hawaii or Europe, I wanna watch!!  Must be quite a car!! :lol:   :lol:
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Hahahaha! That's really funny. Hahahaha!
 
The USA will never get a national well-run public transport service until the cost of owning and running a car goes down - compare UK oil prices, and the cost of insurance in the UK, the cost of road tax in the UK and the cost of maintaining the car (MOT etc.) and you see why most people my age (20) learnt to drive but probably won't own a car until they're in their mid-20s.

Even so, public transport is FAR more expensive here in the UK - a 2.5 hour train trip between Exeter and London (under 200 miles) costs £40 ($65)return (or single, doesn't change the price). A half-mile bus trip between the City Center and my University costs £1.50 ($3) each way (10 minutes walk). :rolleyes: :angry:
 
Kath2003 said:
The USA will never get a national well-run public transport service until the cost of owning and running a car goes down...
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If the cost of owning and running a car goes down, a national well-run public transport service will be even less likely.
 
I enjoy riding public transportation. You get a view of who we really are as a people. On METRA, the pleasant burbians; on the bus or subway, the whole gammut of humanity. It makes me want to pull for them, to wonder if our leaders like GW have even the slightest minutia of a clue of the day to day struggle for life there is out there. I was on a bus in a majior city a while back. An elderly man in shorts, (you could see injury scars on his knees) struggled to get on the bus. A marginal person, but independant. He sat just behind the driver, and while he shouldn't have, he talked to him about taking the Amtrak to Kansas City to see family. No way could he afford to fly. I wonder if Bush and Mineta have a clue about the continued disenfranchisement of so much of America they would be responsible for if they continue thier drive to KILL Amtrak? Or is thier view of America one where the only people who matter are the ones for whom the price of fuel for thier personal vehicles is not an issue? Here in Kansas, there isn't much public transit, (some bus service in larger towns like Wichita). But I truely appreciate it when I have the opportunity to ride METRA, the METRO, CTA or SEPTA or Bus service in Phoenix or Albuquerque, its like being a part of the real America. I think GW and Mr. Mineta should be taken for a ride...on a bus through the heart Washington DC, and put on the Cardinal for Chicago, and let them see and maybe feel for, the people of America.
 

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