Privatize food service?

[Guestlsa]

They want shut down Amtrak and paid the workers McDonald's wages with no rights . Government don't want anyone make a honest living !

 

[pebbleworm]

When I was a kid, i remember the Erie Lackawanna commuter trains did a thriving bar car business. All they did was flip a pair of seats to face each other, threw a board and a tablecloth across and started selling booze out of a cooler. A surprising number of people were having a manhattan in the morning, and on the way back in evening I remember most of the dads were pretty lit by the time they got to Morris County. The bartender had the train as a part time gig- he lived at the end of the line( I think Peapack/Gladstone), worked as a bartender in Hoboken during the day, and then worked his way back home. In Chicago in the early 1980's I saw commuters lining up at a window to get a cocktail in a styrofoam cup. When I asked if the commuter line had a bar car they all said "That would be a great idea!" Amtrak long distance trains and the San Joaquin gets the occasional problem customer, but push the booze!

 

[OBS]

So you think we should pay for our meals? after working 6 tables for 4 straight hours and been up for 9 hours do you think it's fair to make us pay for meals? No cause in reality some of us bring our own meals, also don't have time to sit and eat nice quiet decent meals ( folks would say oh you get to eat too?)

I have worked hard as weIl and have never worked for any employer that paid for my everyday meals. Why do you feel entitled to get your meals for free? Are you the only person that works hard? Except for the military on active duty, you are the only federal workers that get fed for free. I support a discount on food for Amtrak workers but I believe you should pay something for your food and drink just like all the rest of us.

As for my inference that there is food theft on Amtrak; I cannot say that there is and perhaps I am out of line, but when it cost $3.75 to serve a 12 oz can of coke that you can buy at any convenience store or mall for $1.00 something is terribly wrong with the system. If this cost issue is not addressed, we won't have this argument much longer (and you won't have a job) as food service will be eliminated by congress. I do not want to see this happen.

minor correction, but we are not federal workers...

 

[Anderson]

So you think we should pay for our meals? after working 6 tables for 4 straight hours and been up for 9 hours do you think it's fair to make us pay for meals? No cause in reality some of us bring our own meals, also don't have time to sit and eat nice quiet decent meals ( folks would say oh you get to eat too?)

I have worked hard as weIl and have never worked for any employer that paid for my everyday meals. Why do you feel entitled to get your meals for free? Are you the only person that works hard? Except for the military on active duty, you are the only federal workers that get fed for free. I support a discount on food for Amtrak workers but I believe you should pay something for your food and drink just like all the rest of us.

As for my inference that there is food theft on Amtrak; I cannot say that there is and perhaps I am out of line, but when it cost $3.75 to serve a 12 oz can of coke that you can buy at any convenience store or mall for $1.00 something is terribly wrong with the system. If this cost issue is not addressed, we won't have this argument much longer (and you won't have a job) as food service will be eliminated by congress. I do not want to see this happen.

Ok, let me offer a point: No, most federal employees don't get their meals paid for. However, employees who are on trips can usually claim a meal allowance of some sort. It therefore stands to reason that OBS folks should get a similar allowance (though I would argue that it should either be at a higher-than-average rate or their meal prices should be slightly reduced, considering the lack of non-OBS options the staff often have) in light of the multi-day nature of their assignments. I would also point out that outside of the military and diplomatic services, the Western LD train staffs do have some of the longest "held away" times of all government employees. There is a big difference between a bureaucrat at HUD or HHS, or even someone at a national park doing tourist duty of some sort, and LD OBS.

 

[stonesfan]

Been with Amtrak for 11 years and we get charge for stuff it come handed . I don't think you working a 6 day trip paying for 10 meals and still be able to make money . I always bring my food and guess where I get to eat it ... In my room! That's right . Not in diner and there are times where we don't even get because it's almost midnight we have to be up at 4 am the next morning .

Wasn't a law brought regarding crew rest times after this collision?

Train Collision

Yep, I know its Canada but I seem to recall hearing that this was applied across North America in general. I could be wrong.

 

[jis]

Been with Amtrak for 11 years and we get charge for stuff it come handed . I don't think you working a 6 day trip paying for 10 meals and still be able to make money . I always bring my food and guess where I get to eat it ... In my room! That's right . Not in diner and there are times where we don't even get because it's almost midnight we have to be up at 4 am the next morning .

Wasn't a law brought regarding crew rest times after this collision?

Train Collision

Yep, I know its Canada but I seem to recall hearing that this was applied across North America in general. I could be wrong.

That was about operating staff, i.e. Engineer and Conductor(s), not OBS crew. This conversation is about OBS staff, not operating staff.

 

[stonesfan]

That was about operating staff, i.e. Engineer and Conductor(s), not OBS crew. This conversation is about OBS staff, not operating staff.

Thanks for the clarification.

My own personal take on Amtrak long distance catering is that its generally been fit for purpose. I like the fact they keep it relatively simply and arent over ambitious with the menu. If you want the genuine high quality dining experience which harks back the 'Golden era', World over, there tend to be specific 'tourist' trains that cater for this.

As a visitor to the USA, I'd say in general the long distance Amtrak experience has been favourable. The crews in general have been polite although I can maybe understand why some of them were a bit grumpy if they are basically being deprived sleep. I'm gonna be a bit more generous in tipping them next time. Keep your heads up, your doing a good job guys and gals.

See you on the Empire Builder next month

 

[rrdude]

So you think we should pay for our meals? after working 6 tables for 4 straight hours and been up for 9 hours do you think it's fair to make us pay for meals? No cause in reality some of us bring our own meals, also don't have time to sit and eat nice quiet decent meals ( folks would say oh you get to eat too?)

I have worked hard as weIl and have never worked for any employer that paid for my everyday meals. Why do you feel entitled to get your meals for free? Are you the only person that works hard? Except for the military on active duty, you are the only federal workers that get fed for free. I support a discount on food for Amtrak workers but I believe you should pay something for your food and drink just like all the rest of us.

As for my inference that there is food theft on Amtrak; I cannot say that there is and perhaps I am out of line, but when it cost $3.75 to serve a 12 oz can of coke that you can buy at any convenience store or mall for $1.00 something is terribly wrong with the system. If this cost issue is not addressed, we won't have this argument much longer (and you won't have a job) as food service will be eliminated by congress. I do not want to see this happen.

dlagrua, you and I agree on a lot of topics/issues, but I think you are "off" on this one. I've been involved in the food service industry for over 30 years, the very first few were actually with Amtrak, OBS. I've sold POS and computer systems to restaurants, both small and national chains, (Even Amtrak Intercity group in the 90's) I've owned restaurants, etc., etc., I've trained hundreds of restaurant staff, and been involved in the business decisions of dozens of restaurants. So why do I tell you all this crap?

To simply state, from my restaurant experience, that IT IS "normal business practices" for restaurants to feed their staff while on duty, either for FREE (if they are smart, the owners will then apply this against their tax liability) for for greatly reduced pricing.

Additionally, as I think Anderson pointed out, even if you work for XYZ company, if you are traveling on company business, away from home, a large percentage of companies will reimburse your for, or pay a per deim for your meals while away from home. An one cannot argue that Amtrak OBS staff are NOT away from home.

 

[afigg]

It suggests that airline catering is by no means a loss making business. There is healthy M&A activity ion progress in that industry suggesting that there is money to be made. Airlines themselves are trying to get away from that business and moving towards contracting out to those that consider it their core business. Of course the last mile delivery will have to be through airline staff. However that does not preclude outfits like Singapore Airlines, which spun off its food services part as SATS sometime back from offering individualized menu selections in it business and first class services. Oddly enough, it appears that it is precisely in the sort of meal service that Amtrak loses most of its money, that airline catering actually makes its money, and airlines are actively competing in quality of meals provided etc.

...

When the 25 new Viewliner diners are in service, will there be a major change in the implementation of pre-made dishes and meals? There were statements when the 8400 was restored to service about how the capacity for roll-on food carts in the same manner as the Acela first class meals. With the single level diner cars all used on single overnight routes, Amtrak may have plans to adopt the approach in pre-packaged dinners, meals, dishes from the airline industry to cut costs. With the single level diners operating out of only 4 cities (NY, Chi, Miami, NO), would only have to change the contracts and commissary procedures in those 4 places.

Pre-made meals don't have to taste lousy. Food packaging and preparation technology have come a long way in the past 30-40 years. The airlines have adopted and made full use of the improvements in tracking, preparation, and cooking technology. Amtrak still has yet to fully implement electronic POS systems. If Amtrak can cut food service costs, while still providing good quality food, the long term prospects for the LD trains would be better.

 

[George Harris]

So you think we should pay for our meals? after working 6 tables for 4 straight hours and been up for 9 hours do you think it's fair to make us pay for meals? No cause in reality some of us bring our own meals, also don't have time to sit and eat nice quiet decent meals ( folks would say oh you get to eat too?)

I have worked hard as weIl and have never worked for any employer that paid for my everyday meals. Why do you feel entitled to get your meals for free? Are you the only person that works hard? Except for the military on active duty, you are the only federal workers that get fed for free. I support a discount on food for Amtrak workers but I believe you should pay something for your food and drink just like all the rest of us.

As for my inference that there is food theft on Amtrak; I cannot say that there is and perhaps I am out of line, but when it cost $3.75 to serve a 12 oz can of coke that you can buy at any convenience store or mall for $1.00 something is terribly wrong with the system. If this cost issue is not addressed, we won't have this argument much longer (and you won't have a job) as food service will be eliminated by congress. I do not want to see this happen.

To simply state, from my restaurant experience, that IT IS "normal business practices" for restaurants to feed their staff while on duty, either for FREE (if they are smart, the owners will then apply this against their tax liability) for for greatly reduced pricing.

Yes. In fact, I am surprised that anyone would think that a restaurant employee would NOT get his meals as part of the job pay/benefits while at work.

Additionally, as I think Anderson pointed out, even if you work for XYZ company, if you are traveling on company business, away from home, a large percentage of companies will reimburse your for, or pay a per deim for your meals while away from home.[/b]

Always to the best of my knowledge. Any company that requires travel and does not cover meals for those employees that travee will have some very unhappy employees for as long as it takes for them to find another job.

 

[PaulM]

I noticed a definite decline in food and service quality on my two trips on the Zephyr in July. I've taken Amtrak a lot, but one was the worst ever bar none and the second way down at the bad end of the spectrum. Has Amtrak changed some procedures? One diner was basically dysfunctional for the whole trip, and the second the food just was not very good or well prepared at all.

Well, I also had two Zephyr trips in July, and found the service and the food to be quite good. No decline over the past 3 years, in my experience. But, as they say, "your mileage may vary."

I also took a round trip on the CZ in July with both trains sold out and one with a 4th coach. I did not notice any difference in the food. What I did notice was the dining car being used way under capacity, i.e., many empty tables. What it meant was that all sleeping car passengers did not get served supper until well after 9:00PM; and one one of the trips coach passengers did not get served at all. Although the waiters seemed to this Amtrak veteran to be doing a good job, the service was very poor, objectively speaking, due to the long wait for sleeping car passengers and total lack of service for the rest.

Everyone seems to agree that the losses are due to the huge overhead. So if you could increase sales at a rate less than the overhead, you would reduce losses. Who knows what gets lumped into overhead, but It would seem that one way to do this would be to add a cook and server to a sold out train to let more coach passengers eat in the diner. This way you would also be less likely to lose captive sleeping car diner customers who assumed "free meals" did not mean on Spanish time.

 

[stonesfan]

Pre-made meals don't have to taste lousy. Food packaging and preparation technology have come a long way in the past 30-40 years. The airlines have adopted and made full use of the improvements in tracking, preparation, and cooking technology. Amtrak still has yet to fully implement electronic POS systems. If Amtrak can cut food service costs, while still providing good quality food, the long term prospects for the LD trains would be better.

Disagree here. The food I've had on long distance flights with the likes of BA, AA, United and Delta is absolutely awful compared to what Amtrak serve up from the kitchen car!

 

[Ryan]

The fact that pre-made meals don't have to taste lousy doesn't mean that they never will.

 

[jis]

The fact that pre-made meals don't have to taste lousy doesn't mean that they never will.

Which is also true of freshly cooked stuff

Actually if you look at the nature of catering on board trains in general around the world, in places where trains are really used a lot for real transportation, in general the fare available on the train is mostly pre-packaged stuff, with some amount of minor prep before serving. That is also true of trains that are really heavily used for transportation in the US, and according to the IGs report, with a little bit of tweaking it may be possible to bring F&B business to break even in those.

The argument for Dining Service is that it helps generate transport revenue, or at least reduce lost revenue due to people choosing other means of travel. Of course to arrive at any definitive conclusion one will need to see what is the elasticity between expense for food service vs. additional revenue generated and make a decision on how much should be spent on food service based on that. It is not clear that such an analysis has actually been done. Unfortunately, until such happens, this issue is simply not going to go away. Even if there was no Mica there'd be someone else to bring this up as long as a visible and quantifiable subsidy is required for running the service. The other way to make this go away is to somehow hide the subsidy away somewhere in some invisible corner, such as is the case with a lot of highway subsidy. But that is unlikely to succeed in the current atmosphere for too long.

 

[dlagrua]

So you think we should pay for our meals? after working 6 tables for 4 straight hours and been up for 9 hours do you think it's fair to make us pay for meals? No cause in reality some of us bring our own meals, also don't have time to sit and eat nice quiet decent meals ( folks would say oh you get to eat too?)

I have worked hard as weIl and have never worked for any employer that paid for my everyday meals. Why do you feel entitled to get your meals for free? Are you the only person that works hard? Except for the military on active duty, you are the only federal workers that get fed for free. I support a discount on food for Amtrak workers but I believe you should pay something for your food and drink just like all the rest of us.

As for my inference that there is food theft on Amtrak; I cannot say that there is and perhaps I am out of line, but when it cost $3.75 to serve a 12 oz can of coke that you can buy at any convenience store or mall for $1.00 something is terribly wrong with the system. If this cost issue is not addressed, we won't have this argument much longer (and you won't have a job) as food service will be eliminated by congress. I do not want to see this happen.

dlagrua, you and I agree on a lot of topics/issues, but I think you are "off" on this one. I've been involved in the food service industry for over 30 years, the very first few were actually with Amtrak, OBS. I've sold POS and computer systems to restaurants, both small and national chains, (Even Amtrak Intercity group in the 90's) I've owned restaurants, etc., etc., I've trained hundreds of restaurant staff, and been involved in the business decisions of dozens of restaurants. So why do I tell you all this crap?

To simply state, from my restaurant experience, that IT IS "normal business practices" for restaurants to feed their staff while on duty, either for FREE (if they are smart, the owners will then apply this against their tax liability) for for greatly reduced pricing.

Additionally, as I think Anderson pointed out, even if you work for XYZ company, if you are traveling on company business, away from home, a large percentage of companies will reimburse your for, or pay a per deim for your meals while away from home. An one cannot argue that Amtrak OBS staff are NOT away from home.

OK I'll give you that food for the crew is a nice benefit to give, but in the past railroads never provided free food to the onboard crew. The food service people on Amtrak are not being paid the lower minimum waiter/waitress wage of $4 per hour like at private restaurants. (restaurants are exempt from paying the federal minimum wage) Why most restaurants feed their employees is because their table crews are getting paid peanuts and must work on tips. in contrast Amtrak crews are well paid and also receive tips.

Government owned businesses are under scrutiny right now and will be forced to cut costs. For instance the post office is no longer hiring permanent employees but temps that come on only during peak periods. There is no longer a postmaster at each post office but one who oversees many offices.

With Amtrak no major cuts have been made so far but they may be coming. The food service on Amtrak that sells 12 oz cans of coke for $2.00 that cost $3.75 to serve will always stick out as a bad example of government waste. While regular rail travelers wil look the other way the general public and the politicans will not.

On the Southeast Chief the railroad outsourced its food service to the Fred Harvey company. Food was of gourmet quality, service impeccable, and quite costly. The Santa Fe ended up losing money but it was something like a 25% % loss. Maybe the answer is to look into privatizing the food service again, adjust sleeper prices, let all passengers pay for their meals in the dining car and charge the crew a minimal fee. For those that stubbornly wish to hold to the status quo, it is no longer going to fly.

 

[jis]

On the Southeast Chief the railroad outsourced its food service to the Fred Harvey company. Food was of gourmet quality, service impeccable, and quite costly. The Santa Fe ended up losing money but it was something like a 25% % loss. Maybe the answer is to look into privatizing the food service again, adjust sleeper prices, let all passengers pay for their meals in the dining car and charge the crew a minimal fee. For those that stubbornly wish to hold to the status quo, it is no longer going to fly.

Be careful. You may actually get what you wish for. The reason that food was added as part of the ticket price for Sleepers was to save the Dining Cars. This happened when this same discussion was going on in an environment where Dining Cars were not being patronized by Sleeper passengers because of the cost, and were heading towards the cutting block. There is a considerable chance that going back to that setup will cause there to be the end of Dining Car Service, and the only thing that will survive is a glorified Cafe Car with possibly some Simplified Dining Menu pre-packaged items, with no table service, thus cost reducing the SAs and Cooks away.

Actually, coming to think of it, I'd probably stop using Dining Car Service for most meals. It is a luxury that I do not enjoy in my everyday life at home either, so why pay extra for it somewhere else? So there goes the part of my Sleeper Ticket which is now getting fed to Dining Car Service converted straight to close to $0.

 

[stonesfan]

Actually if you look at the nature of catering on board trains in general around the world, in places where trains are really used a lot for real transportation, in general the fare available on the train is mostly pre-packaged stuff, with some amount of minor prep before serving. That is also true of trains that are really heavily used for transportation in the US, and according to the IGs report, with a little bit of tweaking it may be possible to bring F&B business to break even in those.

Tis true in the UK, and most of Europe at least. The majority of nations with genuine High Speed services more or less get by with a cafe/bar arrangement. But then again, when you are getting to your destination in only a few hours that's more than enough. The full restaurant service is more or less a thing of the past on all but a few long distance services.

The UK managed to hold on to the full restaurant service on its key intercity routes until about 3 years ago. In fact I think we had head and shoulders the largest amount of full meal services available worldwide. However, whilst the quality was always surprisingly good, and included nice touches such as local cuisines and the head chef actually coming out to talk to diners and asking them how everything was, this was always seen as a sentimental money loser and no surprise its been ditched on 80% of the services it ran on. Only a few peak time services where passengers are paying full fare now contain this service. However, 1st class passengers now get complimentry light meals, sandwiches, nibbles and drinks of which includes beer and wine. Whilst some bemoan the lack of full meal service, the new offering has actually gone down very well with the majority of passengers.

Personally, I still believe 'pre cooked' food that is served up on rail or air is substandard. Although why is it that you can pop into a food supermarket and buy perfectly decent microwaved food such as lean cuisine or a microwavable curry yet in my opinion what you get served up in transit is nowhere near this?

 

[dlagrua]

On the Southeast Chief the railroad outsourced its food service to the Fred Harvey company. Food was of gourmet quality, service impeccable, and quite costly. The Santa Fe ended up losing money but it was something like a 25% % loss. Maybe the answer is to look into privatizing the food service again, adjust sleeper prices, let all passengers pay for their meals in the dining car and charge the crew a minimal fee. For those that stubbornly wish to hold to the status quo, it is no longer going to fly.

Be careful. You may actually get what you wish for. The reason that food was added as part of the ticket price for Sleepers was to save the Dining Cars. This happened when this same discussion was going on in an environment where Dining Cars were not being patronized by Sleeper passengers because of the cost, and were heading towards the cutting block. There is a considerable chance that going back to that setup will cause there to be the end of Dining Car Service, and the only thing that will survive is a glorified Cafe Car with possibly some Simplified Dining Menu pre-packaged items, with no table service, thus cost reducing the SAs and Cooks away.

Actually, coming to think of it, I'd probably stop using Dining Car Service for most meals. It is a luxury that I do not enjoy in my everyday life at home either, so why pay extra for it somewhere else? So there goes the part of my Sleeper Ticket which is now getting fed to Dining Car Service converted straight to close to $0.

If the truth be known I want to preserve the Amtrak dining service but the discussion these days appears to be how to make it more efficient. So what you are saying is that if the meals were removed as part of the sleeper fares, there would not be sufficient interest or revenue to keep the dining cars open. You could certainly be right about this. As far as I know Amtrak already serves a good portion of pre-prepared meals but some dishes like the Steaks and Burgers are cooked to order. In house food service could be on its way out on the overnight trips but on long 2 night routes like the CZ, SL and EB is it logical to assume that passengers can eat chips and pretzls? Years back many railroads also ran diner cars that had long lunch counters with chairs. There was one cook and one server. Counter service was cheap to provide so maybe this will be returning on the overnights. Self service is another possibility. Who knows what the politicans will push Amtrak into doing?

 

[pebbleworm]

PaulM- that sounds very similar to my experience. Eastbound the dining car crew served just one table at a time- took their order, brought their food, and then moved on to the next table. After it took two hours to get out of the diner with a wiggly 7 year old, I just gave up on that diner and used the cafe. Westbound, the only reservations available were 8:00 or after before they even finished with the sleepers, and that diner crew was also very very slow. That definitely kept the car attendants hopping with take out orders. As for quality, I had a couple of inedible meals, and there was something seriously lacking in each meal I had. If I could have gotten in and out of the diner in a timely manner it wouldn't have been so bad,