the_traveler
Engineer
If she does, look at all the fresh beef and fresh milk you would get!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Policy change for loophole trips?
- Thread starter MisterToad
- Start date
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MisterToad
Train Attendant
I just got off the phone with AGR again. I asked how many points it would take to get from KCY to CBS in a bedroom, and the AGR rep told me they're both in the central zone, so it would take 20,000 points. Finally a good answer to that question! My excitement quickly wore off, however. As he was making the reservation, he was surprised to see the routing through the west coast. He said he could try to book the trip through Chicago, but I told him I want to go through the west coast. He said he could book the trip, but the system would ask for more points since it goes through 2 zones. I went ahead and reserved the trip for 30,000 points since it doesn't look very likely that I'll ever be able to get it for 20,000.
G
Guest
Guest
I wonder if EVERYONE keeps their mouth shut (it would never happen) about this stuff for something like 9 months then it will go away. I don't know how AGR works, but it doesn't sound like this is built into their computer system and it is on the agent to enforce it. I know some places I have worked the big wigs make policy changes and they are enforced hardcore at first, but as time passes eventually things are back to business as usual.
GoldenSpike
Lead Service Attendant
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2009
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- 319
Luckily, about a month ago I got mine in for the same route in late August. Since I'm thinking about tweaking the dates, it is
going to be interesting to see if they will continue to honor the 20,000.
I wonder if they upgraded the computer system. Before when you made an AGR reservation, they would book the trip, then it sounded like they would manually deduct points from your account. Hence the reason why some agents tried to deduct different amount of points. If he said the computer wouldn't let him book it with only 20,000, it makes me wonder if the system is now telling them how many zones it it.
Even so, 5 nights for only 30,000 is still not a bad deal.
People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away. Therefore, not talking about loopholes won't help them come back.
First rule of fightclub?
TVRM610
Conductor
Well if I want to get from ATL to SEA... certainly AGR should be able to route me on trains that do not require I travel into a third zone correct? Since trains are available within the 2 zones (but with an overnight in NOL), it would stand to reason that they should be able to accomodate that request, OR route me through WAS with only 2 zones charged. Of course... this may not be the case in actual practice. Ha.
Ispolkom
Engineer
Which makes me wonder if these new rules are for particular routes that are especially circular. Or maybe not. MisterToad writes that his agent "offered to try to book me through Chicago" so maybe it will be easier to book AGR trips with overnight stays. It will take more people booking long-distance trips through AGR to find out.
If Kansas City - Columbus is two zones, how about Denver - St. Paul, or Albuquerque-Winona? Alas, with three trips (all of which are one-zone awards that go through another zone) booked for this year, I'm plum out of vacation. And since next year Mrs. Ispolkom insists we go to Europe to ride trains, it will be a while before I have a chance to book another circuitous award trip.
In any case, I think that it's a fool's errand to try to imagine that AGR's long distance rules are perfectly rational. They're a simple add-on to AGR's bread and butter, the NEC. AGR adjusts them occasionally as the few of us who use these awards irritate AGR. For whatever reason the Kansas City - Columbus trip irritated AGR, so it's no longer allowed as a one-zone trip.
I'm curious as to what proportion of sleeping car passengers beginning or ending their trips at certain stations are AGR awards. You know, places like Columbus, Wisc., or Slidell, La.
Edgefan
Service Attendant
Too funny :lol: I'm die'n here
Looks like extended trips will just take me longer to earn on midwest living. Really too bad. Well I'm off to New Orleans in a couple weeks. And I certainly would not have made NOL my first choice for an overnight stay without the AGR incentive, so that being said, it's a lose/lose situation for certain city destinations as well as a lot of us in this forum. We, (wife and I) certainly did our fair share of paid legs both before and after the AGR award of this trip.
G
Guest*The Metropolitan
Guest
I may be at the risk of infuriating all around here with this, but I for one won't shed a tear to see the loopholes go. Perhaps I'm the only one who looked at some of the loophole itineraries posted and thought "Wow, Amtrak is losing some serious revenue here!"
I could never fully wrap my mind around the concept that folks who love riding Amtrak and who bemoan how starved Amtrak is for revenue would deliberately craft itineraries that may have cost Amtrak thousands of dollars in revenue while only generating slight sales in order to bring the itinerary crafter to the boundary limits from where they really were looking to travel to and from.
I do understand that the rewards are yours to use anyway you want in compliance with the rules, and I do feel the new rules are bit "smarter" in their application. They may some shortsightedness in handling overnight stopovers, but I'd hope that they can work something "logical" out, ideally helping those redeeming to find the best hotel rates possible within their budget.
There are still some potentially good trips available that actually comply with the new rules such as Denver to Wolf Point (3 nights for a 1 zone) and possibly San Diego to Memphis via the TE/CNO? (4 nights for a 2 zone).
These same itineraries also spotlight some of the fallacies with the zone system for sleeper rewards. For example, a very logical 2 night Denver-Seattle or Albuquerque-Seattle reward is only a single zone redemption while an equally logical 1 night Chicago-Washington reward is a 2 zone redemption.
I could never fully wrap my mind around the concept that folks who love riding Amtrak and who bemoan how starved Amtrak is for revenue would deliberately craft itineraries that may have cost Amtrak thousands of dollars in revenue while only generating slight sales in order to bring the itinerary crafter to the boundary limits from where they really were looking to travel to and from.
I do understand that the rewards are yours to use anyway you want in compliance with the rules, and I do feel the new rules are bit "smarter" in their application. They may some shortsightedness in handling overnight stopovers, but I'd hope that they can work something "logical" out, ideally helping those redeeming to find the best hotel rates possible within their budget.
There are still some potentially good trips available that actually comply with the new rules such as Denver to Wolf Point (3 nights for a 1 zone) and possibly San Diego to Memphis via the TE/CNO? (4 nights for a 2 zone).
These same itineraries also spotlight some of the fallacies with the zone system for sleeper rewards. For example, a very logical 2 night Denver-Seattle or Albuquerque-Seattle reward is only a single zone redemption while an equally logical 1 night Chicago-Washington reward is a 2 zone redemption.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Under the "new" rule, Denver to Wolf Point would be 2-zones.
Where does AGR draw the line? It's not the fault that the citizens of Denver don't have a train that doesn't cross zone borders.
Where does AGR draw the line? It's not the fault that the citizens of Denver don't have a train that doesn't cross zone borders.
The Metropolitan
OBS Chief
I *think* you might be misinterpreting the rule, but honestly can't know one way or the other.
You seem to suggest that going from Denver, Albuquerque, or Atlanta to ANYWHERE one stop away requires a minimum of a 2 zone redemption, since these cities are on the zone breaker.
The citizens of Cleveland, Indianapolis, Birmingham, and even Alliance have had similar problems regarding where they fall on the existing zone map for years, due to the tendency to only have truly worthwhile redemptions in one direction from their city, unless purchasing a ticket to take them to the zone breaker to begin their redemption.
You seem to suggest that going from Denver, Albuquerque, or Atlanta to ANYWHERE one stop away requires a minimum of a 2 zone redemption, since these cities are on the zone breaker.
The citizens of Cleveland, Indianapolis, Birmingham, and even Alliance have had similar problems regarding where they fall on the existing zone map for years, due to the tendency to only have truly worthwhile redemptions in one direction from their city, unless purchasing a ticket to take them to the zone breaker to begin their redemption.
- Joined
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- Messages
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From my booking made today, it appears border cities are in the zone. I booked one zone TOL - ORL. I asked about DET - ORL which was also quoted at one zone via Thruway bus, but opted for TOL. (We'll probably buy coach from WTI since it's a shorter drive.) The short of it is, I would think DEN - Wolf Point would still be one zone.
The Metropolitan
OBS Chief
Thanks for the feedback - that sounds perfectly logical, and seems to validate Denver to Wolf Point as still being a single zone redemption. The very presence of the Albuquerque-Trinidad overlap zone on the SWC also seemed to validate zone border stations as usable in either/or zone to the redeemer's benefit.
Being in Baltimore, my "valuable" sleeper redemption options are somewhat limited from here. One night may require one zone for some destinations, and a 2 zone redemption for others. 2 nights can't be done without a 2 zoner, though 3 for 2 is possible using the TE. Still, I don't complain since I get the "bone" of being towards the end of the Northeast Zone and can get pretty good value from the 3K point redemptions here.
And all in all, I still consider AGR a great value for the lack of capacity controls and the ability to cancel a trip and get your points fully refunded on short notice, generally not an option for most Frequent Flyer members on basic status. I've had to do this twice on a TPA-BAL sleeper trip that didn't work out right, and even then I felt a sense of guilt that I may have "blocked" Amtrak from selling that last bedroom to someone with $$$ that wanted it.
Being in Baltimore, my "valuable" sleeper redemption options are somewhat limited from here. One night may require one zone for some destinations, and a 2 zone redemption for others. 2 nights can't be done without a 2 zoner, though 3 for 2 is possible using the TE. Still, I don't complain since I get the "bone" of being towards the end of the Northeast Zone and can get pretty good value from the 3K point redemptions here.
And all in all, I still consider AGR a great value for the lack of capacity controls and the ability to cancel a trip and get your points fully refunded on short notice, generally not an option for most Frequent Flyer members on basic status. I've had to do this twice on a TPA-BAL sleeper trip that didn't work out right, and even then I felt a sense of guilt that I may have "blocked" Amtrak from selling that last bedroom to someone with $$$ that wanted it.
People calling AGR about loopholes, on the other hand....
Bigval109
OBS Chief
When I call I just ask for what I want. I don't mention the word loophole. I generally take the train" coach" to where the reward begins and I'm on my way. Perhaps if fewer tickets on the Atlanta trip was to alt come up missing then this may fade away. Since I have never ridden the crescent I'm going all the way and taking the train back to RVR as part of my vacation. I could get off closer to home but a longer ride and meals and maybe a chance to see my new nephew
is worth the extra 100 bucks.AGR put into place procedures a long time ago, maybe a year or two now, to deal with people who book to/from Atlanta and never travel that segment.When I call I just ask for what I want. I don't mention the word loophole. I generally take the train" coach" to where the reward begins and I'm on my way. Perhaps if fewer tickets on the Atlanta trip was to alt come up missing then this may fade away. Since I have never ridden the crescent I'm going all the way and taking the train back to RVR as part of my vacation. I could get off closer to home but a longer ride and meals and maybe a chance to see my new nephew
Please understand these simple facts; talking about a loophole on a forum, metioning the word loophole to an agent, throwing away tickets to/from Atlanta, and AGR insider all had nothing to do with this change of policy.
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- Joined
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- 8,507
Doesn't that say a lot about Amtrak and how much they really don't care about the bottom line? They knew people were taking four night trips and for the price of one and costing them revenue, and that didn't bother them. What finally resulting in the change was Amtrak getting irritated by a customer who kept after them because AGR completely fouled up a reservation. Amtrak was unable or unwilling to fix it, and that reservation just happened to be a "loophole" trip. So, they pull the plug on the loopholes out of spite, not because it was costing them money.
If Amtrak and AGR are not watching here and elsewhere for schemes that steal revenue, they should be. I can assure you that airlines watch FT all the time and react very quickly if some nonsense is going on. I guess Amtrak figures that taxpayers will make up whatever losses they incur, so who cares.
Have you noticed that AGR Insider has been MIA at FT for nearly two weeks? I hope it wasn't something I said.
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Ispolkom
Engineer
Actually, I still haven't seen any evidence that any AGR award other than the one Mister Toad tried to book has changed. I'd be willing to bet that this particular trip is now a two-zone award, but that others that aren't so baroque are still one-zone awards.
I'll agree that AGR isn't very well run, but I don't think that the fancy loophole trips are a very good example. After all, you aren't "stealing revenue" if you book a roomette or bedroom that wouldn't otherwise be sold. The fixed costs of the train are still there, and the marginal cost of the AGR traveler would be what? The cost of the ingredients of his or her meals?
AGR's real problem from Amtrak's perspective is its lack of capacity controls. It's not that I'm booking a bedroom on the Empire Builder for points, it's that I'm booking a top-dollar bedroom on the Portland sleeper in August for points. Sure they try to deal with this with black-out dates (and rules about which Acelas you can book), but even these black-out dates are NEC-oriented. Is Easter, for instance, a busy time on most long-distance trains?
Cynical though I am, I don't agree that "Amtrak figures that taxpayers will make up whatever losses they incur, so who cares." Instead I think that the programming fix in a legacy program like Arrow is probably more expensive than the costs of people abusing the system, if that's what you want to call it. I call it following the rules.
I'll agree that AGR isn't very well run, but I don't think that the fancy loophole trips are a very good example. After all, you aren't "stealing revenue" if you book a roomette or bedroom that wouldn't otherwise be sold. The fixed costs of the train are still there, and the marginal cost of the AGR traveler would be what? The cost of the ingredients of his or her meals?
AGR's real problem from Amtrak's perspective is its lack of capacity controls. It's not that I'm booking a bedroom on the Empire Builder for points, it's that I'm booking a top-dollar bedroom on the Portland sleeper in August for points. Sure they try to deal with this with black-out dates (and rules about which Acelas you can book), but even these black-out dates are NEC-oriented. Is Easter, for instance, a busy time on most long-distance trains?
Cynical though I am, I don't agree that "Amtrak figures that taxpayers will make up whatever losses they incur, so who cares." Instead I think that the programming fix in a legacy program like Arrow is probably more expensive than the costs of people abusing the system, if that's what you want to call it. I call it following the rules.
The Metropolitan
OBS Chief
I guess they had their reasons, but I never fully understood why the zone breaker from the central to Eastern Zone wasn't set at Chicago instead of Toledo. I'm sure some folks in Toledo can use this to advantage, but it would seem that more folks going from East to Midwest would find it easier to use.
How sure are you that the incident you mention was the cause of the change?
Do you have "inside info" or are you just speculating??
Problem with information on the internet is that it is hard to know how good the information is.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Oh come on now... I was told from two sources on the inside that the loophole was closing and that they were planning this months in advance. They didn't close the loophole out of spite, they wouldn't fix my reservation because it was a loophole.
The way they saw it they needed to close the loophole and tell me tough luck ex post facto. Others iin the company said that wasn't how Amtrak conducts business and said that they should fix my reservation first and then worry about closing the loophole once and for all.
In either event it was clear that AGR knew what the trip was, they had known about it, and they had plans in the making to end it by the summer travel season. Guess what happened? The loophole closed before then summer travel season.
I mean really, people honestly believe that they would change policy outnof spite? Sorry. I may, keyword may, have been the last AU member to book that specific routing, and yeah that feels bad, but eventually with all things golden... Somebody has to have the unfortunate coincidence of being the last one to touch.
The way they saw it they needed to close the loophole and tell me tough luck ex post facto. Others iin the company said that wasn't how Amtrak conducts business and said that they should fix my reservation first and then worry about closing the loophole once and for all.
In either event it was clear that AGR knew what the trip was, they had known about it, and they had plans in the making to end it by the summer travel season. Guess what happened? The loophole closed before then summer travel season.
I mean really, people honestly believe that they would change policy outnof spite? Sorry. I may, keyword may, have been the last AU member to book that specific routing, and yeah that feels bad, but eventually with all things golden... Somebody has to have the unfortunate coincidence of being the last one to touch.
I'm pretty sure that the_traveler has this booked in Oct. after the gathering, also possibly a couple of other members will be on the same trains! I'm glad I did it last fall, it;s a fantastic trip! The LH I'm looking @ is POS-EMY, still a 1 zone trip, will NOT ask the agent for a LH trip or call bugging AGR about the reservation, low key is th e way to go, and if you dont like what the agent tells you, politely end the call and call back for another agent! If in doubt, ask for a Supervisor, lots of those Canadians dont know the routes and US Geography like the foamers here! :lol:
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