Phoenix Zephyr

[USrail21]

Phoenix is the only city in the United States that has more than a million people without Amtrak Service currently. So Amtrak needs to go there.Thruway Motorcoach buses aren't enough. So How about an aAmtrak that runs Between Phoenix and Chicago called the Phoenix Zephyr. It will operate between the Phoenix Central Station (it would replace the old Union Station) to Chicago Union Station. The Stations are Phoenix, Tempe, Coolidge, Tucson, Silver City, Ruidoso, Roswell, Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Lawton, Oklahoma City, Bristow, Tulsa, Fayettevile, Jonesboro, Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Effingham, Champaign-Urbana, Kankakee, then Chicago. It would not only help Phoenix, but also Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Tulsa, Fayetteville, Jonesboro, and Cape Girardeau get Amtrak service. These cities can achieve goals in having Amtrak service.

 

[wmk]

Phoenix is the only city in the United States that has more than a million people without Amtrak Service currently. So Amtrak needs to go there.Thruway Motorcoach buses aren't enough. So How about an aAmtrak that runs Between Phoenix and Chicago called the Phoenix Zephyr. It will operate between the Phoenix Central Station (it would replace the old Union Station) to Chicago Union Station. The Stations are Phoenix, Tempe, Coolidge, Tucson, Silver City, Ruidoso, Roswell, Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Lawton, Oklahoma City, Bristow, Tulsa, Fayettevile, Jonesboro, Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Effingham, Champaign-Urbana, Kankakee, then Chicago. It would not only help Phoenix, but also Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Tulsa, Fayetteville, Jonesboro, and Cape Girardeau get Amtrak service. These cities can achieve goals in having Amtrak service.

Dreams are nice.

 

[greatcats]

Tell me, where is Phoenix Central Station? Those light rail stations would not be too suitable for a Superliner train. I can just see that train crawling through the boondocks of New Mexico now.

 

[jdcnosse]

A more logical situation would be trying to negotiate UP and getting the sunset limited to go through Phoenix. Of course that's still a dream but it's a more reasonable dream.

 

[eagle628]

But why not (besides UP) a nice corridor between Phoenix and Los Angeles? A few daily round-trips with reasonable times would be much more popular than a single long-distance train to a destination a very long ways away. IIRC, this has been proposed before.

 

[George B]

There are MAYBE 2,000 people in the Phoenix metro area that are interested in LD train service. So, that means that 99.95% of the Phoenix population (4.2 million) does not care at all about whether or not Amtrak serves the area.

Also, UP would tell Amtrak to go (expletive) themselves if they proposed a route change, or a new route.

Maricopa is not entirely convenient to get to. But, at the same time, it isn’t far away. Phoenix is getting what they deserve in terms of rail service. You will get a few people on here who will whine and complain that Phoenix is being left behind. But, the truth is, Phoenix is not interested in Amtrak. Our beloved Senator John McCain can sum it all up with his past statements on Amtrak in Arizona. I think his most famous quote is “Amtrak does not serve my state, or my constituents.”

 

[jdcnosse]

Maricopa is not entirely convenient to get to. But, at the same time, it isn't far away. Phoenix is getting what they deserve in terms of rail service. You will get a few people on here who will whine and complain that Phoenix is being left behind. But, the truth is, Phoenix is not interested in Amtrak. Our beloved Senator John McCain can sum it all up with his past statements on Amtrak in Arizona. I think his most famous quote is "Amtrak does not serve my state, or my constituents."

Yeap, I'd say that too, as my girlfriend put it (since she's from Tucson) the majority of people from Phoenix and points north are Republican, and well, we all know how the Republicans in Congress feel about Amtrak...

I am thankful that they have at least the SWC going through the northern half and the SSL going through the southern portion of Arizona, otherwise I wouldn't be able to get to school (Flagstaff) or to my girlfriend's hometown (Tucson), and that'd be a problem, as she does NOT like the greyhound, and is also deathly afraid of flying (she needs a heavy sedative to be able to fly).

 

[jphjaxfl]

Phoenix is the only city in the United States that has more than a million people without Amtrak Service currently. So Amtrak needs to go there.Thruway Motorcoach buses aren't enough. So How about an aAmtrak that runs Between Phoenix and Chicago called the Phoenix Zephyr. It will operate between the Phoenix Central Station (it would replace the old Union Station) to Chicago Union Station. The Stations are Phoenix, Tempe, Coolidge, Tucson, Silver City, Ruidoso, Roswell, Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Lawton, Oklahoma City, Bristow, Tulsa, Fayettevile, Jonesboro, Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Effingham, Champaign-Urbana, Kankakee, then Chicago. It would not only help Phoenix, but also Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Tulsa, Fayetteville, Jonesboro, and Cape Girardeau get Amtrak service. These cities can achieve goals in having Amtrak service.

You would have to build a completely new railroad because many of those cities are not now connected by rail lines and in many cases never were. In the areas where some of these places are located, you would need a market for freight service to help support the proposed passenger train. If you wanted to resurect Chicago to Phoenix service on a route that did exist, try the Golden State route Chicago - Kansas City- Tucumcari, New Mexico - El Paso, then the current Sunset route through Tuscon to Phoenix. That was the preferred route from Chicago to Phoenix in the day.

 

[Palmland]

One alternate route that might have a long shot at service to Chicago, is the route of the BNSF from Phoenix via Wickenburg and Williams to Flagstaff. Only way that might happen is if the Sunset gets axed and the consolation prize is a train from Tuscon to Phoenix then on to Flagstaff for connections to the SWC. But even in the days of Santa Fe's Grand Canyon - southern section, that was a slow, winding route. But it would help improve ridership on the SWC and maybe take it off the list of the poorer performers, financially.

 

[George Harris]

But why not (besides UP) a nice corridor between Phoenix and Los Angeles? A few daily round-trips with reasonable times would be much more popular than a single long-distance train to a destination a very long ways away. IIRC, this has been proposed before.

Look at a railroad map. There isn't one.

Well, there is an alternative rail route of sorts. From Phoenix, go northwest on the BNSF branch toward Williams Jct as far as Matthie (Matthie is a railroad point just north of Wickenburg), then go on the Arizona and California Railroad to Cadiz CA, then you are on the BNSF mainline used by the Southwest Chief. The only problem is that the A&C is an unsignaled secondary line. By the time you got that up to condition for 79 mph or more, you would have spent more money than it would take to get UP's Phoenix west line back up good condition.

If and when the California High Speed Railroad ever gets built and becomes the overwhelming passenger hauling success that it certainly will be, then building a high speed railroad between LA and Phoenix should be come the obvious next step. However, we are looking quite a few years in the future before this happens.

 

[NE933]

Dreams are nice.

If 19 terrorists can dream of hijacking planes to knock down the World Trade Center and kill four thousand, then our fellow train rider is entitled to dream of Amtrak going to Phoenix AND getting his way.

 

[The Chief]

Here's timetable link to Rock Island-SP's The Arizona Ltd, the Chicago-KC-Tucumcari route jphjaxfl noted.

All-Pullman with four through sleepers and a lounge-observation-sleeper.

Not daily, nor thrice-weekly, but interestingly every-other-day service.

Apparently train was discontinued because of the WAR.

We used to have good reasons to discontinue PAX rail.

 

[guest]

But why not (besides UP) a nice corridor between Phoenix and Los Angeles? A few daily round-trips with reasonable times would be much more popular than a single long-distance train to a destination a very long ways away. IIRC, this has been proposed before.

Look at a railroad map. There isn't one.

Well, there is an alternative rail route of sorts. From Phoenix, go northwest on the BNSF branch toward Williams Jct as far as Matthie (Matthie is a railroad point just north of Wickenburg), then go on the Arizona and California Railroad to Cadiz CA, then you are on the BNSF mainline used by the Southwest Chief. The only problem is that the A&C is an unsignaled secondary line. By the time you got that up to condition for 79 mph or more, you would have spent more money than it would take to get UP's Phoenix west line back up good condition.

If and when the California High Speed Railroad ever gets built and becomes the overwhelming passenger hauling success that it certainly will be, then building a high speed railroad between LA and Phoenix should be come the obvious next step. However, we are looking quite a few years in the future before this happens.

Phoenix West line still exists, but it hasn't been used in many years. It would be nice if the state of Arizona would take it over and upgrade it so Amtrak could again run directly into Phoenix!

And re: Phoenix to Chicago, how about a train going from Phoenix to Albuquerque, where it would wye, then take the Amarillo/Woodward route? The SWC is so busy from KCY to CHI, there is definitely demand for a second train on that route...

 

[USrail21]

Tell me, where is Phoenix Central Station? Those light rail stations would not be too suitable for a Superliner train. I can just see that train crawling through the boondocks of New Mexico now.

Phoenix Central Station is the Union Station except it is more advanced and if approved would replace it.

 

[Donctor]

Dreams are nice.

If 19 terrorists can dream of hijacking planes to knock down the World Trade Center and kill four thousand, then our fellow train rider is entitled to dream of Amtrak going to Phoenix AND getting his way.

What?

 

[George B]

Dreams are nice.

If 19 terrorists can dream of hijacking planes to knock down the World Trade Center and kill four thousand, then our fellow train rider is entitled to dream of Amtrak going to Phoenix AND getting his way.

What?

My thoughts exactly. Relevancy is lost art with some people.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Phoenix is the only city in the United States that has more than a million people without Amtrak Service currently. So Amtrak needs to go there.Thruway Motorcoach buses aren't enough. So How about an aAmtrak that runs Between Phoenix and Chicago called the Phoenix Zephyr. It will operate between the Phoenix Central Station (it would replace the old Union Station) to Chicago Union Station. The Stations are Phoenix, Tempe, Coolidge, Tucson, Silver City, Ruidoso, Roswell, Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Lawton, Oklahoma City, Bristow, Tulsa, Fayettevile, Jonesboro, Cape Girardeau, Carbondale, Effingham, Champaign-Urbana, Kankakee, then Chicago. It would not only help Phoenix, but also Lubbock, Wichita Falls, Tulsa, Fayetteville, Jonesboro, and Cape Girardeau get Amtrak service. These cities can achieve goals in having Amtrak service.

Is it just me, or is absolutely everything wrong with this. Guest USrail21 has also proposed today a massive tunnel in Boston just so 5 daily Downeasters will have an easier connection with the NEC, a Metroliner service from NY to Louisville (at 125 mph through the Appalachians), and now this. The most important way Phoenix could benefit would be a resurrection of the semi-abandoned portion of the Phoenix West line from Buckeye to Wellton. This would enable the Sunset Limited, and the future daily Texas Eagle, to serve Phoenix with an overnight connection to LA. There is a much much much larger Phoenix-LA market than Phoenix-CHICAGO!!! Seriously!!! And track going through Silver City that connects to the BNSF Transcon has never existed. Ever. In addition to an overnight Phoenix connection to LA, a service that has both a morning and a 12 or 1 o'clock departure for LA from Phoenix (and the other way around too), that would stop in Fullerton and Riverside (because currently the daily TE service will go via these too), Loma Linda (since they are in the process of building community support for a station), Palm Springs, Indio (there used to be a station in Indio, and I believe the building still exists), Yuma, and Buckeye. If it even had an eight hour run time, it could definitely attract large crowds to it. Also, where is Tulsa - Fayetteville - Jonesboro trackage? And a Cape Girardeau - Carbondale bridge over the Mississippi? Seriously, if you want to propose anything realistic, you should check your facts first. Also note that we can't do anything about this, this forum is not affiliated with Amtrak. I'd also like to second the fact that Phoenix, and Arizona in general (except for communities derved by the SW Chief) have no support for pax rail whatsoever.

Johnny

 

[afigg]

Is it just me, or is absolutely everything wrong with this. Guest USrail21 has also proposed today a massive tunnel in Boston just so 5 daily Downeasters will have an easier connection with the NEC, a Metroliner service from NY to Louisville (at 125 mph through the Appalachians), and now this.

The primary purpose of the tunnel in Boston connecting the South to North station would be for the MBTA commuter lines. Providing through connections for Amtrak service to Portland ME and other cities north of Boston would be a secondary benefit. The tunnel concept has been kicked around for decades and because of the cost and technical challenges, is likely to be kicked around for decades to come.

The most important way Phoenix could benefit would be a resurrection of the semi-abandoned portion of the Phoenix West line from Buckeye to Wellton. This would enable the Sunset Limited, and the future daily Texas Eagle, to serve Phoenix with an overnight connection to LA. There is a much much much larger Phoenix-LA market than Phoenix-CHICAGO!!! Seriously!!!

I agree that that the emphasis should be on a Tucson to Phoenix to LA corridor service. The current SL schedule has a 10 hour trip time from Tucson to LA over 502 miles over the current route. Decent average speeds, very suitable trip times for a daytime corridor service. If Amtrak were able to switch to their proposed daily Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle service, it would provide overnight times between Tucson / Phoenix to LA. And if they could ever restore service to Phoenix proper, a daytime corridor train would complement the overnight service.

But, UP would have to agree without demanding $100s of millions of dollars and Arizona would have to work with California with sharing the cost of the corridor service. California would benefit from additional service to Palm Springs. UP is double tracking the entire line from West Colton CA to El Paso. Don't know how much of the double tracking is complete from CA to Tucson, but they will get there. IIRC, there are several projects grade separation and overpass projects (mostly government funded) underway in CA that will reduce congestion on the route. So the route is seeing major improvements with the exception of the tracks into Phoenix.

I would not rule this corridor service idea out in the long term as a possibility after McCain retires, Arizona gets new political leadership, and if gasoline hits $5/gallon and stays there. But it won't happen anytime soon.

 

[George B]

I agree that that the emphasis should be on a Tucson to Phoenix to LA corridor service. The current SL schedule has a 10 hour trip time from Tucson to LA over 502 miles over the current route. Decent average speeds, very suitable trip times for a daytime corridor service. If Amtrak were able to switch to their proposed daily Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle service, it would provide overnight times between Tucson / Phoenix to LA. And if they could ever restore service to Phoenix proper, a daytime corridor train would complement the overnight service.

But, UP would have to agree without demanding $100s of millions of dollars and Arizona would have to work with California with sharing the cost of the corridor service. California would benefit from additional service to Palm Springs. UP is double tracking the entire line from West Colton CA to El Paso. Don't know how much of the double tracking is complete from CA to Tucson, but they will get there. IIRC, there are several projects grade separation and overpass projects (mostly government funded) underway in CA that will reduce congestion on the route. So the route is seeing major improvements with the exception of the tracks into Phoenix.

I would not rule this corridor service idea out in the long term as a possibility after McCain retires, Arizona gets new political leadership, and if gasoline hits $5/gallon and stays there. But it won't happen anytime soon.

If you think John McCain’s views on Amtrak are in the minority in Arizona, then I am afraid you are in for a shock.

UP has a ways to go to get the double-tracking finished from LA to MRC.

Corridor service would be fine from LA to Tucson or Phoenix…….except that unless you rent a car when you get to Phoenix or Tucson, you ain’t going much of anywhere. Arizonans drive. The cowboy mentality is very strong here, meaning that folks want to be left alone to do whatever they want to do, and part of that is having your own car and not having to share transportation with anybody else. Most people in the US are like that, but it is taken to a greater extreme here in Arizona. A lot of people move out here from Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, New York, New Jersey, because they wanted to escape the “big city”, and not have to take public transportation to get anywhere anymore. Phoenix is in severe denial that it is a big city, and the fact that they vetoed freeway construction for decades in hopes that it would just “go away” sums it all up.

You also have to remember that the State of Arizona is extremely poor. The wealth is in Maricopa and Pima County governments, which are the Phoenix and Tucson metro areas. So, the State has no money for projects like this, and the metro areas are not going to spend funds to run service through areas they do not collect taxes for. Amtrak’s station in Maricopa is not even in Maricopa County. It is in Pinal County, which cares even less about Amtrak. The City of Maricopa was the foreclosure capital of the world for a few years, and doesn’t see the Amtrak station as being useful at all to the local economic situation since people get on or off the train without spending money in the City. Amtrak just isn’t wanted here at all. I think the major reason Amtrak keeps the MRC station open is for the crew change.

 

[daveyb99]

There are MAYBE 2,000 people in the Phoenix metro area that are interested in LD train service. So, that means that 99.95% of the Phoenix population (4.2 million) does not care at all about whether or not Amtrak serves the area.

... and best I can recall there are two U S Senators from Arizona who could do without AMTRAK. Sell it to them first, then lets talk.

 

[Karl1459]

Look at a railroad map. There isn't one.

Well, there is an alternative rail route of sorts. From Phoenix, go northwest on the BNSF branch toward Williams Jct as far as Matthie (Matthie is a railroad point just north of Wickenburg), then go on the Arizona and California Railroad to Cadiz CA, then you are on the BNSF mainline used by the Southwest Chief. The only problem is that the A&C is an unsignaled secondary line. By the time you got that up to condition for 79 mph or more, you would have spent more money than it would take to get UP's Phoenix west line back up good condition.

If and when the California High Speed Railroad ever gets built and becomes the overwhelming passenger hauling success that it certainly will be, then building a high speed railroad between LA and Phoenix should be come the obvious next step. However, we are looking quite a few years in the future before this happens.

There is frequent, throat slitting fare, air service LA-Phoenix which makes it difficult for rail to compete. Air service is much more expensive in the San Joquin Valley to which Amtrak to Phoenix, imho, could compete. Move the western terminus of the Sunset Ltd to Bakersfield. Cross platform transfer between the SWC and SL at Barstow. If Amtrak is unable to service the cars at Bakersfield then try for an agreement with California to use the trainset as a San Joquin to Oakland or Sacramento (with connections to the CS)

 

[Michael061282]

There would have to be a Flag stop in Skull Valley, Az or I'd boycott. Only because I think Skull Valley is probably the coolest name ever for a town.