Pere Marquette Stranded North of Holland

[Guest_Birdy_*]

Trains have an inherent all-weather capability compared to other forms of public transport. Bad weather should be a competitive advantage for Amtrak, not cause for an excuse-fest. A relative who took the local Railrunner marveled at whizzing past all the cars that had skidded off I-25 during a snow storm. That's the way it should be.

Bad weather is predictable and something that can be planned for. A shrug of the shoulders and mumbling something about an act of God, or "dying" on the line as if the hours of service regulations were enacted last week, doesn't cut it.

I don't doubt the story about CSX denying access to the police. BNSF still lives in the 1890's where the railroad was a law unto itself, and I expect CSX is no different. Whether a police orchestrated rescue is ill-advised or not is not the railroad functionary's call, any more than his opinions on how the local SWAT team should respond to an incident.

Of course, a lot of this relates to the sorry state of resources of the system, both in stock and employees. When resources are stretched to the limit in good times there is no slack for the bad times.

 

[AlanB]

I don't doubt the story about CSX denying access to the police. BNSF still lives in the 1890's where the railroad was a law unto itself, and I expect CSX is no different. Whether a police orchestrated rescue is ill-advised or not is not the railroad functionary's call, any more than his opinions on how the local SWAT team should respond to an incident.

With respect Birdy, like it or not, RR's still are a law unto themselves under Federal law. That's why each RR has a duly constituted police force. So it is within the RR's call to decide what to do and whether or not to allow the locals to evacuate the train. The Grand Rapid's police have no more authority to order a train's evacuation than they do to order a plane to be evacuated. I choose Grand Rapids, since I rather doubt that Holland has an airport, but GR does. There are areas where local police don't have the authority to order or demmand anything.

Heck, this wouldn't even be an issue at all, but for the advent of a cell phone. Thirty years ago, this entire event would be a non-event.

And as I stated above, a local police officer cannot order a train crew to do something that is in violation of Federal laws.

 

[ThayerATM]

I don't doubt the story about CSX denying access to the police. BNSF still lives in the 1890's where the railroad was a law unto itself, and I expect CSX is no different. Whether a police orchestrated rescue is ill-advised or not is not the railroad functionary's call, any more than his opinions on how the local SWAT team should respond to an incident.

With respect Birdy, like it or not, RR's still are a law unto themselves under Federal law. That's why each RR has a duly constituted police force. So it is within the RR's call to decide what to do and whether or not to allow the locals to evacuate the train. The Grand Rapid's police have no more authority to order a train's evacuation than they do to order a plane to be evacuated. I choose Grand Rapids, since I rather doubt that Holland has an airport, but GR does. There are areas where local police don't have the authority to order or demmand anything.

Heck, this wouldn't even be an issue at all, but for the advent of a cell phone. Thirty years ago, this entire event would be a non-event.

And as I stated above, a local police officer cannot order a train crew to do something that is in violation of Federal laws.

Granted, a local police officer can't order the evacuation of a train, nor do anything in violation of Federal law.

But since cell phones ARE in existence, and radios have been in existence for a long time...

Don't you suppose that the local police officer would probably be able to get hold of his commanding officer, who would probably know how to get hold of the Govenor, who would probably know how to get hold of a federal judge, get a court order, and then would then be able to get hold of the commander of the local National Guard unit? It might have created a ruckus, but I'll bet those passengers could have been evacuated from the train over the objection of CSX.

Yes!!! Thirty years ago this would have been a non-event. But... are we stuck in the 1980's? This happended in Michigan in 2008. Have we no regard for humane treatment?

I guess not, after reading what happened.

 

[Ryan]

Have we no regard for humane treatment?
I guess not, after reading what happened.

What, precisely, is "inhumane" about providing shelter, free food and water to passengers in the middle of a snowstorm? What good would hauling everyone off the train do? What happens when the new crew arrives, and the train is empty? Sit and wait another hour while the pax are brought back to the train and it's reloaded? Do you really think that the Governor is going to accept phone calls from a local police chief in the middle of the night ad find a federal judge and call out the national guard to remove people from the train? The train would have been long gone before the National Guard ever made it to the scene.

 

[ThayerATM]

Have we no regard for humane treatment?
I guess not, after reading what happened.

What, precisely, is "inhumane" about providing shelter, free food and water to passengers in the middle of a snowstorm? What good would hauling everyone off the train do? What happens when the new crew arrives, and the train is empty? Sit and wait another hour while the pax are brought back to the train and it's reloaded? Do you really think that the Governor is going to accept phone calls from a local police chief in the middle of the night ad find a federal judge and call out the national guard to remove people from the train? The train would have been long gone before the National Guard ever made it to the scene.

I wish I could define "inhumane." Perhaps a definition relies on situitational ethics. Heck, I can't even define situitational ethics.

This might be a good place to take a look at what really did happen that fateful day...

Did the Amtrak train run out of food?

Did the Amtrak train's toilets fill up, and become unusable?

Did CSX really deny the local police access to the train?

How long were the Amtrak passengers "stuck" on a stranded train without help?

The whole incident was a product of bad weather. I seriously doubt that Amtrak or CSX really had a workable plan on what to do in a situation such as this. It just strikes me that 100+ persons should (that's a subjective word) not have been inconvienced (another word that relies on subjective analysys) in a place (train) with no food or toilets for that length of time, when there was (a subjective call) a way to get them to more comfortable (another subjective word) place.

FACT: If my wife had been on that train, her thoughts (read screaming) would have been heard in Washington DC, right from the train.

I'm more laid back. As long as I wasn't freezing to death, I could hold out for a long time, as long as the Amtrak supply of beer held out. If the beer ran out I'd be on my way to the local 7-11. I wouldn't much care who opened the train car door. :blink:

 

[ralfp]

The fact that these people were unhappy sitting on that train is something that I understand and appreciate. But that still does not give them the right to open doors and jump off the train. In fact, they could well be jailed for that.

How many hours or days must you sit on a train (or plane) before it becomes legal to flee? Or is one supposed to shut up and die?

Sorry for the hyperbole, but, somewhere between a five minute delay and a five week delay, one gets the right to leave without permission. The question is where the line is drawn.

With respect Birdy, like it or not, RR's still are a law unto themselves under Federal law. That's why each RR has a duly constituted police force. So it is within the RR's call to decide what to do and whether or not to allow the locals to evacuate the train. The Grand Rapid's police have no more authority to order a train's evacuation than they do to order a plane to be evacuated.

Does a police officer have any less authority to order a train evacuated than to order a building evacuated? Is there a federal law codifying restrictions on state/local law enforcement on rights-of-way?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Does a police officer have any less authority to order a train evacuated than to order a building evacuated? Is there a federal law codifying restrictions on state/local law enforcement on rights-of-way?

Last time I checked, yes. Evacuation of a train is the order of the train crew (Conductor) or the railroad police.

 

[ThayerATM]

The fact that these people were unhappy sitting on that train is something that I understand and appreciate. But that still does not give them the right to open doors and jump off the train. In fact, they could well be jailed for that.

How many hours or days must you sit on a train (or plane) before it becomes legal to flee? Or is one supposed to shut up and die?

Sorry for the hyperbole, but, somewhere between a five minute delay and a five week delay, one gets the right to leave without permission. The question is where the line is drawn.

With respect Birdy, like it or not, RR's still are a law unto themselves under Federal law. That's why each RR has a duly constituted police force. So it is within the RR's call to decide what to do and whether or not to allow the locals to evacuate the train. The Grand Rapid's police have no more authority to order a train's evacuation than they do to order a plane to be evacuated.

Does a police officer have any less authority to order a train evacuated than to order a building evacuated? Is there a federal law codifying restrictions on state/local law enforcement on rights-of-way?

That's an excellent question. And if there's a situation where some federal law didn't specifically mention...

We were on the Lake Shore Limited (train 48) in 2007 when it hit a truck about 15 miles west of Rochester NY. The New York State Police held that train for about 3 hours while it conducted its investigation. The train was not allowed to proceed until a NYS State police officer interviewed EVERY passenger to determine injury.

My best guess is that local police have the authority to hold, or evacuate trains in an emergency situation.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

My best guess is that local police have the authority to hold, or evacuate trains in an emergency situation.

Now define 'emergency'.

And in the case mentioned, hitting a truck, the NYSP had the rights to conduct an investigation into the accident with a vehicle not associated with the railroad. Now, with the Pere Marquette, there was nobody involved besides Amtrak and CSX.

Totally different situations.

 

[ThayerATM]

My best guess is that local police have the authority to hold, or evacuate trains in an emergency situation.

Now define 'emergency'.

And in the case mentioned, hitting a truck, the NYSP had the rights to conduct an investigation into the accident with a vehicle not associated with the railroad. Now, with the Pere Marquette, there was nobody involved besides Amtrak and CSX.

Totally different situations.

They certainly are totally different situations.

Where I live, "emergency" is defined as a combination of circumstances, or the resulting state, that calls for immediate action. I think the situation under discussion qualifies as "emergency," unless there's a total disregard for *humane* treatment of people.

I have a copy of Daryl Pesce's Amtrak letter to Sharon Edgar of the Michigan Department of Transportation, explaining Amtrak's view on the situation. While sounding somewhat defensive, Pesce's letter does lay down Amtrak's view of the situation.

It appears that at 5:10 am EST, the crew on Amtrak train 370 gave all passengers the option of detraining at Holland. I suppose that anyone who did not detrain at that point, on their way to Grand Rapids, became a willing participant in the Fiasco, with no recourse. I DO wonder how many of the passengers on 370 were informed that the work crew had only 25 minutes left on their allowed work time, under Federal Regulations, and the train was still 25 miles from Grand Rapids. Under those circumstances, even I could have figured out that that in the miserable weather, I'd better get off at Holland. I was born and raised in Michigan. This entire situation is not a matter of rocket science.

Amtrak dropped the ball.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

My best guess is that local police have the authority to hold, or evacuate trains in an emergency situation.

Now define 'emergency'.

And in the case mentioned, hitting a truck, the NYSP had the rights to conduct an investigation into the accident with a vehicle not associated with the railroad. Now, with the Pere Marquette, there was nobody involved besides Amtrak and CSX.

Totally different situations.

They certainly are totally different situations.

Where I live, "emergency" is defined as a combination of circumstances, or the resulting state, that calls for immediate action. I think the situation under discussion qualifies as "emergency," unless there's a total disregard for *humane* treatment of people.

I have a copy of Daryl Pesce's Amtrak letter to Sharon Edgar of the Michigan Department of Transportation, explaining Amtrak's view on the situation. While sounding somewhat defensive, Pesce's letter does lay down Amtrak's view of the situation.

It appears that at 5:10 am EST, the crew on Amtrak train 370 gave all passengers the option of detraining at Holland. I suppose that anyone who did not detrain at that point, on their way to Grand Rapids, became a willing participant in the Fiasco, with no recourse. I DO wonder how many of the passengers on 370 were informed that the work crew had only 25 minutes left on their allowed work time, under Federal Regulations, and the train was still 25 miles from Grand Rapids. Under those circumstances, even I could have figured out that that in the miserable weather, I'd better get off at Holland. I was born and raised in Michigan. This entire situation is not a matter of rocket science.

Amtrak dropped the ball.

They did not.

Read the timeline of events, Alan posted it earlier in the thread. Amtrak did the best damn job they could.

And as for passangers being treated "humanely" whatever that is supposed to mean, they were given foodstuffs, water, heat, lights, and power. WHich is more than anybody could say for a lot of other people in the damn storm.

So they ran out of toilet paper, that hardly means they were treated inhumanely.

Travelers expect to be treated like gold bricks even in the worst of scenarios. Totally unreasonable.

 

[AlanB]

It appears that at 5:10 am EST, the crew on Amtrak train 370 gave all passengers the option of detraining at Holland. I suppose that anyone who did not detrain at that point, on their way to Grand Rapids, became a willing participant in the Fiasco, with no recourse. I DO wonder how many of the passengers on 370 were informed that the work crew had only 25 minutes left on their allowed work time, under Federal Regulations, and the train was still 25 miles from Grand Rapids. Under those circumstances, even I could have figured out that that in the miserable weather, I'd better get off at Holland. I was born and raised in Michigan. This entire situation is not a matter of rocket science.

So you'd choose a cold, dark, locked station with no facilities or food over the warmth and comfort of a seat on a train going nowwhere in the middle of a blizzard and freezing cold temperatures. And all just on the hope that someone you know will actually be able to get to the station in the middle of that snowstorm to pick you up.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stay with the train.

 

[AlanB]

This might be a good place to take a look at what really did happen that fateful day...Did the Amtrak train run out of food?

Not until the very end, but it wasn't like people were starving.

Did the Amtrak train's toilets fill up, and become unusable?

No.

Did CSX really deny the local police access to the train?

Seems that way, but it's still unclear if it really did happen and just why they were denied (if indeed they were) is also unclear. However, I can't imagine what that has to do with being inhumane.

How long were the Amtrak passengers "stuck" on a stranded train without help?

Less than three hours.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It appears that at 5:10 am EST, the crew on Amtrak train 370 gave all passengers the option of detraining at Holland. I suppose that anyone who did not detrain at that point, on their way to Grand Rapids, became a willing participant in the Fiasco, with no recourse. I DO wonder how many of the passengers on 370 were informed that the work crew had only 25 minutes left on their allowed work time, under Federal Regulations, and the train was still 25 miles from Grand Rapids. Under those circumstances, even I could have figured out that that in the miserable weather, I'd better get off at Holland. I was born and raised in Michigan. This entire situation is not a matter of rocket science.

So you'd choose a cold, dark, locked station with no facilities or food over the warmth and comfort of a seat on a train going nowwhere in the middle of a blizzard and freezing cold temperatures. And all just on the hope that someone you know will actually be able to get to the station in the middle of that snowstorm to pick you up.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stay with the train.

Just a random question--

But what emergency provisions are on these trains? I know they aren't eating five star here-- but they have to be a step above nothing

 

[AlanB]

Just a random question--
But what emergency provisions are on these trains? I know they aren't eating five star here-- but they have to be a step above nothing

I'm not really 100% sure, but I know that it includes a bottle of water for each person on the train and some form of a snack pack.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Just a random question--
But what emergency provisions are on these trains? I know they aren't eating five star here-- but they have to be a step above nothing

I'm not really 100% sure, but I know that it includes a bottle of water for each person on the train and some form of a snack pack.

Better than dark cold and no heat!

 

[ralfp]

Last time I checked, yes. Evacuation of a train is the order of the train crew (Conductor) or the railroad police.

So if a local cop came on board a train you were on and ordered everyone off because of some emergency, but the conductor said to stay aboard, would you refuse to leave?

 

[AAARGH!]

[so if a local cop came on board a train you were on and ordered everyone off because of some emergency, but the conductor said to stay aboard, would you refuse to leave?

I would refuse. IMHO, the conductor IS the authority on a train.

Of course this hypothetical is quite a stretch. If there is an emergency, the chances are the cop AND conductor would agreee to evacuate. ALSO, the cop would have to have major cajones to go aboard and make any kind of orders.

This also assumes the conductor is being reasonable (which is likely). If the emergency caused the conductor to not be in his/her right mind and a police officer made a responsible order that the conductor controverted, I would follow the police order. Again, quite a stretch.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Last time I checked, yes. Evacuation of a train is the order of the train crew (Conductor) or the railroad police.

So if a local cop came on board a train you were on and ordered everyone off because of some emergency, but the conductor said to stay aboard, would you refuse to leave?

Yeah, pretty much.

What does your local cop know about railroad safety? If a cop knows something that the conductor doesn't, maybe a bomb for argument's sake, then he needs to alert the conductor or the railroad.

Not to mention said cop would be instantly subject to the conductor, most I would assume, would run up and say "What the hell are you doing on this train?" At which point the cop explains, and the conductor will order the evacuation if he perceives a reasonable threat.

 

[ThayerATM]

It appears that at 5:10 am EST, the crew on Amtrak train 370 gave all passengers the option of detraining at Holland. I suppose that anyone who did not detrain at that point, on their way to Grand Rapids, became a willing participant in the Fiasco, with no recourse. I DO wonder how many of the passengers on 370 were informed that the work crew had only 25 minutes left on their allowed work time, under Federal Regulations, and the train was still 25 miles from Grand Rapids. Under those circumstances, even I could have figured out that that in the miserable weather, I'd better get off at Holland. I was born and raised in Michigan. This entire situation is not a matter of rocket science.

So you'd choose a cold, dark, locked station with no facilities or food over the warmth and comfort of a seat on a train going nowwhere in the middle of a blizzard and freezing cold temperatures. And all just on the hope that someone you know will actually be able to get to the station in the middle of that snowstorm to pick you up.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stay with the train.

I know that this "ASSUMES" a lot, but...

If Amtrak had informed me that there were only 25 minutes left on the crews hours of service, and I knew that we were 25 miles away from Grand Rapids, and it was snowing like mad, and the Holland police were looking into the situation in order to evacuate everybody at Holland, I certainly would have opted for getting off the train in Holland. Key point here... IF AMTRAK had informed me.

Did Amtrak inform any of the passengers as to their option of detraining in Holland before the train tried to proceed to Grand Rapids? Given my experience in past train travel, I doubt that Amtrak would have informed the passengers adequately via the speaker system.

I've already written down the user names of those that are going to come back at me, seriously defending Amtrak and condemning CSX, but you're ******* into a strong wind.

We all know that Amtrak dropped the ball on this one.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

We all know that Amtrak dropped the ball on this one.

Then label me ignorant.



And.. no, I don't do that into a strong wind..

 

[ThayerATM]

We all know that Amtrak dropped the ball on this one.

:
Then label me ignorant.

And.. no, I don't do that into a strong wind..

If there is a light side to this saga, you just made it. !!!!!!!!!!!!

I really had a long an hard laugh after your remark. B)

Thanks for adding some fun to my day !!!!

 

[AlanB]

I know that this "ASSUMES" a lot, but...
If Amtrak had informed me that there were only 25 minutes left on the crews hours of service, and I knew that we were 25 miles away from Grand Rapids, and it was snowing like mad, and the Holland police were looking into the situation in order to evacuate everybody at Holland, I certainly would have opted for getting off the train in Holland. Key point here... IF AMTRAK had informed me.

Assuming may be your downfall. One thing I can tell you that is wrong with your assumtion above is that the Holland police were looking into the situation. The Holland police did not become involved until long after the train left the Holland station. It wasn't until the impatient passengers started calling 911 when the train was stopped in the yard for a while, that the police got involved.

Therefore, even if you had known about the impending crew timeout (and that's assuming that Amtrak did tell people), you would have been stranded in the Holland station for at least I'm guessing an hour or more before the police came by. Unless of course you called them yourself. But I'm guessing that at least initially they'd have looked at you like you were nuts for getting off the train in a snow storm at a stop that wasn't your stop.

Did Amtrak inform any of the passengers as to their option of detraining in Holland before the train tried to proceed to Grand Rapids? Given my experience in past train travel, I doubt that Amtrak would have informed the passengers adequately via the speaker system.

Unknown at this point in time what the crew did or did not tell the passengers. But I for one don't consider getting off the train in a snow storm, with freezing temps, at a closed station that isn't mine, with no pickup planned, an option.

We all know that Amtrak dropped the ball on this one.

And I continue to disagree with that statement.

I do still think that certain aspects of this incident could have been handled better than they were. But I don't think that Amtrak dropped the ball either.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I do still think that certain aspects of this incident could have been handled better than they were. But I don't think that Amtrak dropped the ball either.

Exactly.

Do these people think that a blizzard strong enough to bring modern trains to a halt is safe to go out in with a bus or car? The safest mode of travel in those conditions is the train and part of that reason is the fact that if the train gets stuck, at least you're unlikely to run out of gas-- less likely to run out of food, you have plenty of heat and a strong steel cage to protect you.

It is a horrible thing that pax will expect to be treated with better service during a situation than if it was a normal day.

They gave the pax a warm place to sleep, shelter, food and water. The toilets worked, I am still at a loss to see where the hell they were treated inhumanely? They were deprived of nothing besides their ability to travel.

 

[Alice]

Do these people think that a blizzard strong enough to bring modern trains to a halt is safe to go out in with a bus or car? The safest mode of travel in those conditions is the train and part of that reason is the fact that if the train gets stuck, at least you're unlikely to run out of gas-- less likely to run out of food, you have plenty of heat and a strong steel cage to protect you.

Can't resist this. I was on a train that had to be refueled in the middle of nowhere on account of bad weather between Chicago and Washington DC (March 2007). Airports and roads were pretty much closed, like last month. We pulled up and blocked a dirt road that had access parallel to the tracks, and a tanker truck joined us. Of particular note was how many clothes all those guys outside were wearing compared to we comfortably warm passengers. I can see two reasons for inadequate fuel: We got in around 18 hours late; we had a bad engine that we abandoned so were short power over the mountains.