Pensacola City Talks About Bring Back Amtrak Service

[Caesar La Rock]

http://www.weartv.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wear_vid_20268.shtml

And let the discussion begin.

 

[Ryan]

They're talking about the Sunset East, which:

a) Isn't going to happen unless the states involved come up with some cash (which isn't going to happen).

b) Been discussed to death.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Way too much talking, no reality!

 

[Caesar La Rock]

They're talking about the Sunset East, which:

a) Isn't going to happen unless the states involved come up with some cash (which isn't going to happen).

b) Been discussed to death.

Way too much talking, no reality!

That's what happens when a train gets cut back. People ignored this route when it ran three times a week in either direction and now all of the sudden they want it back.

 

[Tumbleweed]

If it were to come true, I would immediately begin planning a trip around the perimeter of the U.S.

 

[Anderson]

They're talking about the Sunset East, which:

a) Isn't going to happen unless the states involved come up with some cash (which isn't going to happen).

b) Been discussed to death.

Way too much talking, no reality!

That's what happens when a train gets cut back. People ignored this route when it ran three times a week in either direction and now all of the sudden they want it back.

Part of the problem is that it was cut-but-not-cut...it was "suspended" and never withdrawn. As to traffic on the route...three-times-weekly routes tend to have that problem because of inconsistent service, and IIRC the Sunset always had OTP problems because of its sheer length.

 

[afigg]

That's what happens when a train gets cut back. People ignored this route when it ran three times a week in either direction and now all of the sudden they want it back.

I would hardly call the request to restore the service "all of the sudden". The service was suspended in August 2005, so it has been 6 and a half years.

As for restoring the service, Amtrak wrote a Gulf Coast Service Plan Report on what it would take to restore the service in July, 2009. The basic problem is that it will take money and equipment that Amtrak does not have, especially with the cuts to the operating grant subsidy. Difficult to line up and justify capital funding for a slow 3 day a week train service.

According to the 2009 report, the 247 mile segment from Flomaton, AL to Tallahassee is non-signaled dark territory which means max passenger train speeds of 59 mph with max track speeds ranging from 40 to 59 mph. There is a 7 mile long section with a 20 mph limit at CSX Chattahoochee Yard west of Tallahassee. Not good for decent trip times.

The most viable way that a Sunset Limited or extended City of New Orleans to Orlando would get restored, is if Florida were to put state funding to start up a Pensacola to Jacksonville (and then to Orlando?) corridor service. If FL can:

1) start up a successful multiple daily frequency Amtrak service over the FEC from Miami to Jacksonville,

2) then starts up a Miami to Orlando/(maybe Tampa) Amtrak service (with much of the route over Tri-Rail and SunRail state owned tracks).

Then perhaps the citizens and city leaders in the Florida panhandle and Tallahassee will ask, hey why don't we get Amtrak corridor service? A corridor service with state and federal funding could pay to upgrade the tracks & signal systems for 79 mph speeds, add bypass 2nd tracks, in short put several hundred million into track improvements. Then Amtrak would just have to deal with the segment from Pensacola to New Orleans which might be manageable with limited LD funds. But this would take many years to happen, although sustained high oil prices could change the situation sooner than that.

Meanwhile, keeping the Sunset Limited running from New Orleans to LA just 3 days a week is going to be a challenge.

 

[NomDePlume]

With the current governor there? Pffffft. I don't see it. Even if there was major outcry for it, it wouldn't happen under that guy.

 

[afigg]

With the current governor there? Pffffft. I don't see it. Even if there was major outcry for it, it wouldn't happen under that guy.

With Governor Scott? Agreed, not likely. On the other hand, he decided not to block SunRail and the FL DOT has put $118 million of state funding towards starting service on the FEC. Not a pro-rail or pro-transit Governor, but he got a lot of grief and took hits from more mainstream Republicans on his decision to kill the Tampa to Orlando HSR project. Got burned for it.

Any plan or proposal to provide corridor service across Northern Florida would be a long term effort, taking years and years to build support. Scott is either a one or two term Governor. Given his current poll numbers, odds are leaning to being a one term Governor. Have to take the long view with service restoration or expansion such as this.

 

[xyzzy]

I don't believe an intra-Florida train will fly (pardon the pun). Amtrak will demand 403(b) money and Florida won't provide it.

Besides track speed, one issue with the dark segment on this route has been the upcoming PTC mandate. Nobody has both the willingness and the deep pockets to signal the entire line. And even if the PTC problem could be overcome (or goes away entirely), a revived Sunset has timekeeping problems and would run in the middle of the night. A separate day train NOL-Mobile-Florida would make more sense, but it's still going to have unattractive hours at the endpoints.

This dog doesn't hunt.

 

[MattW]

Would the PTC still have to be applied though since service still hasn't officially been cut?

 

[NomDePlume]

With the current governor there? Pffffft. I don't see it. Even if there was major outcry for it, it wouldn't happen under that guy.

With Governor Scott? Agreed, not likely. On the other hand, he decided not to block SunRail and the FL DOT has put $118 million of state funding towards starting service on the FEC. Not a pro-rail or pro-transit Governor, but he got a lot of grief and took hits from more mainstream Republicans on his decision to kill the Tampa to Orlando HSR project. Got burned for it.

Any plan or proposal to provide corridor service across Northern Florida would be a long term effort, taking years and years to build support. Scott is either a one or two term Governor. Given his current poll numbers, odds are leaning to being a one term Governor. Have to take the long view with service restoration or expansion such as this.

Those were put into play long before he got into office, I still worked for FDOT when those were being discussed (not my office but I recall it), Scott wasn't around way back then and they were so far along I doubt if there was much he could do about them. The way he's killing state offices off now is the only way he could kill those, too.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

The thread subtitle isn't correct at all. In the second paragraph of the article, it mention that the Sunset Limited used to run between New Orleans and Orlando, which 99.9% of all people would infer what train it was talking about.

 

[trainman74]

The thread subtitle isn't correct at all. In the second paragraph of the article, it mention that the Sunset Limited used to run between New Orleans and Orlando, which 99.9% of all people would infer what train it was talking about.

My guess is that the original poster was being sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek, given that it seems like there's another "city along the suspended portion of the Sunset Limited route wants the service back" news article every month.

 

[benjibear]

In my opinion a 3 day a week service is never going to be profitable.

 

[henryj]

That's what happens when a train gets cut back. People ignored this route when it ran three times a week in either direction and now all of the sudden they want it back.

I would hardly call the request to restore the service "all of the sudden". The service was suspended in August 2005, so it has been 6 and a half years.

As for restoring the service, Amtrak wrote a Gulf Coast Service Plan Report on what it would take to restore the service in July, 2009. The basic problem is that it will take money and equipment that Amtrak does not have

This often quoted statement about equipment is totally wrong as the equipment to run to Orlando now just sits in New Orleans for three days doing nothing before it heads back west. I assume the crews sit there too. If you look at the schedule there are times when New Orleans has two Sunsets sitting there overnight. Amtrak has four sets of equipment assigned to this train. Another set sits in LA overnight as they are unable to turn the train same day. some days there are times when there is no train out on the UP tracks as all four sets are waiting in LA and NOL for their next departure. The east bound schedule is an abomination that resulted from the UP meltdown and has never been restored to the pre-Katrina times. It hits most major terminals in the wee hours of the night or morning. This train is so badly managed it is no wonder that it loses so much money. If you read the study done by Amtrak on this train, almost all the improvements they site could be made to the existing train, yet they do nothing. Amtrak has set it up to fail and I am sure it will be first on their chopping block. It will be just one more LD train axed by Amtrak following the many others that have preceeded it. It's a sad tale of gross mis-management by Amtrak. And sadly, I have ridden the train many times and the crews are gracious and friendly and the on board service is excellent.

 

[George Harris]

That's what happens when a train gets cut back. People ignored this route when it ran three times a week in either direction and now all of the sudden they want it back.

As for restoring the service, Amtrak wrote a Gulf Coast Service Plan Report on what it would take to restore the service in July, 2009. The basic problem is that it will take money and equipment that Amtrak does not have, especially with the cuts to the operating grant subsidy. Difficult to line up and justify capital funding for a slow 3 day a week train service.

According to the 2009 report, the 247 mile segment from Flomaton, AL to Tallahassee is non-signaled dark territory which means max passenger train speeds of 59 mph with max track speeds ranging from 40 to 59 mph. There is a 7 mile long section with a 20 mph limit at CSX Chattahoochee Yard west of Tallahassee. Not good for decent trip times.

. . . .

Then Amtrak would just have to deal with the segment from Pensacola to New Orleans which might be manageable with limited LD funds. But this would take many years to happen, although sustained high oil prices could change the situation sooner than that.

Meanwhile, keeping the Sunset Limited running from New Orleans to LA just 3 days a week is going to be a challenge.

Actually, poeple in Pensacola were well aware of the route. The service times and reliability hurt significantly, but that was another story from not kning the train existed. By the way, much of the reliability problem related to issues west of New Orleans now resolved.

Read the 2009 report. It was written to make the return sound infeasible. The 59 mph speed limit Flomaton to Tallahassee is not a recent event. It was there when the train was running, and for that matter, when the joint L&N-SAL Gulf Wind ran pre Amtrak. (The Gulf Wind lasted right up to A-day.) To use it as a reason for non-restoration is nonsense. As to the long 20 mph segmetn, that can be dealt with otherwise.

A real problem has alwasy been the round about route between Mobile and Pensacola which would require 50 miles of new railroad to cure.

 

[xyzzy]

The 59 mph speed limit Flomaton to Tallahassee is not a recent event.

True, but the PTC zealots have scared people.

 

[NomDePlume]

A real problem has alwasy been the round about route between Mobile and Pensacola which would require 50 miles of new railroad to cure.

I have to wonder if any of the Mobile area tracks suffered damage after Katrina, too. I know there were a lot of unused tracks in the area, and maybe no one bothered checking them afterwards.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

That's what happens when a train gets cut back. People ignored this route when it ran three times a week in either direction and now all of the sudden they want it back.

I would hardly call the request to restore the service "all of the sudden". The service was suspended in August 2005, so it has been 6 and a half years.

As for restoring the service, Amtrak wrote a Gulf Coast Service Plan Report on what it would take to restore the service in July, 2009. The basic problem is that it will take money and equipment that Amtrak does not have

This often quoted statement about equipment is totally wrong as the equipment to run to Orlando now just sits in New Orleans for three days doing nothing before it heads back west. I assume the crews sit there too. If you look at the schedule there are times when New Orleans has two Sunsets sitting there overnight. Amtrak has four sets of equipment assigned to this train. Another set sits in LA overnight as they are unable to turn the train same day. some days there are times when there is no train out on the UP tracks as all four sets are waiting in LA and NOL for their next departure. The east bound schedule is an abomination that resulted from the UP meltdown and has never been restored to the pre-Katrina times. It hits most major terminals in the wee hours of the night or morning. This train is so badly managed it is no wonder that it loses so much money. If you read the study done by Amtrak on this train, almost all the improvements they site could be made to the existing train, yet they do nothing. Amtrak has set it up to fail and I am sure it will be first on their chopping block. It will be just one more LD train axed by Amtrak following the many others that have preceeded it. It's a sad tale of gross mis-management by Amtrak. And sadly, I have ridden the train many times and the crews are gracious and friendly and the on board service is excellent.

So far the Sunset is still alive. The real question is how long does it have or is Amtrak even going to attempt to improve it. Right now Pensacola's talk about this is just that. Talk, but currently no action as of yet. When I hear more about where this is going I will post back here on this thread ASAP.

 

[henryj]

A real problem has alwasy been the round about route between Mobile and Pensacola which would require 50 miles of new railroad to cure.

I have to wonder if any of the Mobile area tracks suffered damage after Katrina, too. I know there were a lot of unused tracks in the area, and maybe no one bothered checking them afterwards.

All the tracks that were damaged by Katrina were repaired within six months and CSX gave Amtrak the ok to resume service at that time. My understanding from reading various 'boards' is that recently CSX downgraded the track between NOL and Mobile to 40mph and is routing most traffic via Montgomery vs the coast route. Anyone have any news regarding this change? If true, it is getting more and more unlikely that any type of service can be restored to this route without major expenditures of money.

 

[George Harris]

A real problem has always been the round about route between Mobile and Pensacola which would require 50 miles of new railroad to cure.

I have to wonder if any of the Mobile area tracks suffered damage after Katrina, too. I know there were a lot of unused tracks in the area, and maybe no one bothered checking them afterwards.

All the tracks that were damaged by Katrina were repaired within six months and CSX gave Amtrak the ok to resume service at that time. My understanding from reading various 'boards' is that recently CSX downgraded the track between NOL and Mobile to 40mph and is routing most traffic via Montgomery vs the coast route. Anyone have any news regarding this change? If true, it is getting more and more unlikely that any type of service can be restored to this route without major expenditures of money.

" . . . between NOL and Mobile . . ."

Wrong piece of railroad. The part downgraded, if it has been, would be Flomaton to the east, either to Tallahassee, or all the way to Jacksonville. Flomaton to Mobile to New Orleans would be used by trains to/from Jacksonville and points beyond whether they go through Tallahassee or through Montgomery.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

http://www.weartv.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wear_vid_20378.shtml

 

[Donctor]

This often quoted statement about equipment is totally wrong as the equipment to run to Orlando now just sits in New Orleans for three days doing nothing before it heads back west. I assume the crews sit there too. If you look at the schedule there are times when New Orleans has two Sunsets sitting there overnight. Amtrak has four sets of equipment assigned to this train. Another set sits in LA overnight as they are unable to turn the train same day. some days there are times when there is no train out on the UP tracks as all four sets are waiting in LA and NOL for their next departure.

Aren't they working on changing this?

 

[henryj]

A real problem has always been the round about route between Mobile and Pensacola which would require 50 miles of new railroad to cure.

I have to wonder if any of the Mobile area tracks suffered damage after Katrina, too. I know there were a lot of unused tracks in the area, and maybe no one bothered checking them afterwards.

All the tracks that were damaged by Katrina were repaired within six months and CSX gave Amtrak the ok to resume service at that time. My understanding from reading various 'boards' is that recently CSX downgraded the track between NOL and Mobile to 40mph and is routing most traffic via Montgomery vs the coast route. Anyone have any news regarding this change? If true, it is getting more and more unlikely that any type of service can be restored to this route without major expenditures of money.

" . . . between NOL and Mobile . . ."

Wrong piece of railroad. The part downgraded, if it has been, would be Flomaton to the east, either to Tallahassee, or all the way to Jacksonville. Flomaton to Mobile to New Orleans would be used by trains to/from Jacksonville and points beyond whether they go through Tallahassee or through Montgomery.

Thanks George for clarifying this.