Passport CARD Okay On Maple Leaf?

[PVD]

There is a system in place for expedited service. There is a also a system in place to accommodate legit emergencies. Failure on the part of the State Dept. to perform properly doesn't change the point that lots of people create crises so they can do things they normally can't do. What portion of the people who were coming in at the last minute did it because of a State Dept problem, or their own failure to do things in a timely manner. I do agree, that if a person filed in a timely manner, has tracking info, and has not received their passport, they should be taken care of immediately. That does not justify claiming an emergency or time crisis just to avoid one's own responsibility. It is likely that most people would indeed consider that gaming a system.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There is a system in place for expedited service. There is a also a system in place to accommodate legit emergencies. What portion of the people who were coming in at the last minute did it because of a State Dept problem, or their own failure to do things in a timely manner. I do agree, that if a person filed in a timely manner, has tracking info, and has not received their passport, they should be taken care of immediately.  I do agree, that if a person filed in a timely manner, has tracking info, and has not received their passport, they should be taken care of immediately. That does not justify claiming an emergency or time crisis just to avoid one's own responsibility. It is likely that most people would indeed consider that gaming a system.

So far as I can tell the expedited priority mail-in system that is currently in place does little more than collect additional fees and then try to talk you out of expecting a refund for services never rendered. If you need/want to travel in less than two or three months theres is no dependable system in place for ensuring that happens other than simply waiting and doing it at the last minute.  Believe me when I say I wish that was not the case.  I dislike traveling to Houston every bit as much as the State Department dislikes rendering basic services in a timely fashion.  That being said, I did not manufacture any crisis.  Nor did I make any false claims on any government forms.  I merely provided the necessary documentation and paid the additional fees.

 

[jis]

I think it is really weird that the richest country in the world is unable to process a routine Passport application in less than 4 to 6 weeks, while even a country like India, reputed to be the world standard of inefficient bureaucracy is able to turn around a standard Passport application in less than two weeks.

What does that say about the quality of the US bureaucracy? :help:

 

[PVD]

Like I said, if you did what you were supposed to do and they failed, you should be taken care of immediately. That is clearly different from people who don't plan ahead, don't get around to doing things when required, and then try and use the emergency provision to bail themselves out of a self created crisis. 

 

[jis]

And like I said, it should not take six weeks to produce a frickin' 20 page document with one embedded chip in an advanced country like the US. :lol:

 

[PVD]

Neither is appropriate, the fact that one group fails, doesn't justify someone else not doing what they need to do... they are both wrong.

 

[jis]

When bureaucracy fails to deliver on pretty reasonable expectations people work around the idiocy of the bureaucracy anyway they can. That is the way things have always been and will continue to be and no matter how much one lectures everyone about abiding by unreasonable positions taken by bureaucracies, it will just be ignored by all. That is the nature of things. 

People who have lived in places with inefficient and inarticulate bureaucracies are more adept at this than others. Maybe the US is just new to such idiocy.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Like I said, if you did what you were supposed to do and they failed, you should be taken care of immediately. That is clearly different from people who don't plan ahead, don't get around to doing things when required, and then try and use the emergency provision to bail themselves out of a self created crisis. 

I'm not sure why you're so concerned about random people taking advantage of the State Dept.  The power imbalance is massive and it's not in favor of the citizenry.  If you make any sort of mistake they're only too happy to throw up their hands and kick you to the back of the line.  Everything I'm claiming about this comes from firsthand experience.  Eventually you get what you need (sort of) but it takes more time and money than I can reasonably comprehend.  As Jis has said many countries can provide similar services in a small fraction of the time.

 

[PVD]

I'm not concerned about random people taking advantage of the State Dept, and I agree with your point about the imbalance of power. I also don't think that justifies improper behavior. The agencies ineptitude is not (in my way of thinking) justification for miscreant behavior. that does not relate to your situation, but it not an uncommon mindset at all. 

 

[cpotisch]

I personally don't have much issue with taking advantage of the State Department through loop holes. What I do have issue with is the fact that you're basically cutting in line and getting your passport before the people who are going through the process the way it's intended. Now you're likely making it take longer for them to get their passport, and that doesn't seem fair.

 

[PVD]

As both DA and JIS have pointed out, the State Dept does not handle the process well at all, and that can force people to take steps to protect their interests. I just don't believe that is justification for someone who doesn't have a real problem to try and step ahead. Maybe its idealistic, but morality still has a place. 

 

[jis]

Oddly enough, the only guaranteed way that I know, of getting a Passport quickly, is to apply Expedited using a Travel Document Service of repute. That is what I generally used in the past. Also having a trip six weeks out justified it some I suppose. It does cost more. It is not at all hard to arrange for a suitable itinerary using refundable fares to somewhere like Canada for the purpose either. I can see a few people's hair getting set on fire. :lol: What can I say? I grew up handling incompetent bureaucracy and working around them for the first half of my life, so I don't feel much moral compunction to abide by unreasonable demands.

This time, since I have about 8 weeks available before the next trip requiring a Passport, I decided to go the standard route and see what happens, just as a matter of an anthropological experiment. The State Department person I spoke to assured me that if I don't have a Passport by chance by the time the trip is two weeks away, to call the designated number and they will handle it as a special case and get it out within a day or two. Which of course suggests to me that they probably just sit on it to run the clock out, or something like that.

So far it has been two weeks since they received the application sent acknowledgement due to them. They cashed the check one week after receiving it (that in itself is a record for someone receiving funds). They still have two to four weeks in their stated four to six weeks, including mail transit time. So we'll see.

 

[cpotisch]

As both DA and JIS have pointed out, the State Dept does not handle the process well at all, and that can force people to take steps to protect their interests. I just don't believe that is justification for someone who doesn't have a real problem to try and step ahead. Maybe its idealistic, but morality still has a place. 

The other thing to bear in mind is that if too many people take advantage of systems designed to help people who really need it, then it's that much more likely those systems are done away with. So if the State Department were to stop offering super-expedited passports to those traveling imminently due to people taking advantage of it, now someone who actually does need that (let's say is suddenly traveling for a funeral) can't do so.

 

[PVD]

I don't think that's likely. What is more likely is the State Dept coming up with an even worse way to do things than they already do, and point to that as an excuse.. 

 

[jis]

The other thing to bear in mind is that if too many people take advantage of systems designed to help people who really need it, then it's that much more likely those systems are done away with. So if the State Department were to stop offering super-expedited passports to those traveling imminently due to people taking advantage of it, now someone who actually does need that (let's say is suddenly traveling for a funeral) can't do so.

Apparently you lack understanding of how bureaucracies work. They will never remove the expedited route. They will just increase the fee for it. The workaround for the well healed never goes away.

The one that gets screwed is the standard path, until everyone gets sick of it and the original inefficiency in the bureaucracy is fixed after some ossified fossils are shown the exit. That is essentially what brought down the Passport processing time from a few months to a week or two in India. They basically replaced the entire existing bureaucracy by a new one of a different generation with no connection to the previous patronage system.

 

[cpotisch]

Apparently you lack understanding of how bureaucracies work. They will never remove the expedited route. They will just increase the fee for it. The workaround for the well healed never goes away.

Still, raising the price is not ideal either.

 

[jis]

Still, raising the price is not ideal either.

Past experience shows that even if you do nothing, they will raise the price anyway at regular intervals. That is what bureaucracies primarily live for, to protect their own existence and welfare. :lol:

 

[BCL]

Don't forget what has been discussed here before  several times. "Border" agents claim jurisdiction for a few hundred miles from the border, and also  from all international airports. It is possible, but not likely, that a citizen of the US could be detained and deported from, say, Cincinnati,  or Saint Louis, or Kansas City.

More than that.  100 miles from any boundary including water boundaries.  But that's where their standard authority would be for certain actions that bypass normal Constitutional protections.  That may even include where I live right now since I'm easily less than 100 miles from the Pacific Ocean.

However, they legally have jurisdiction anywhere as federal law enforcement and could theoretically be called to do regular federal police work in case of emergency or exigent circumstances.  Remember that a Border Patrol special operations team did the raid that extracted Elian Gonzalez from his extended family's home in the Miami area.  That same division has done a lot of things that one wouldn't normally think of as border interdiction, such as securing special events such as the Super Bowl.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Absolutely. I was referring to the fact that laws and principles that may (or you may believe) apply to you in the US, all bets are off, entry is at the discretion of the border officer. Even returning to the US (which as a citizen I have an absolute right to) I can be detained if I don't have proper documentation while they pursue alternate verifiable ID. 

Very true too.    As a US Citizen, you have the legal right to walk up to any US boarder, and demand entry.  No law actually requires a passport, and there are no laws pertaining to ID required when walking is your means of travel.  While such entry can't be legally denied, there might be a delay while they verify your ID.    Verification of ID has changed a bit, to be more formal/exhaustive, over the past 240 years.

 

[BCL]

Very true too.    As a US Citizen, you have the legal right to walk up to any US boarder, and demand entry.  No law actually requires a passport, and there are no laws pertaining to ID required when walking is your means of travel.  While such entry can't be legally denied, there might be a delay while they verify your ID.    Verification of ID has changed a bit, to be more formal/exhaustive, over the past 240 years.

That is a bit different than the mechanics of entering another country as a visitor.  I'm under the impression that US federal agents at ports of entry aren't specifically supposed to keep out US citizens simply on the basis of not having the right paperwork.

For instance, suppose I do something (which I've heard of before) like lose my passport on the return plane ride to the US.  I have maybe a valid US passport card or a state enhanced DL.  Technically I wouldn't be in compliance with passport requirements, but I'd think that I would have all the proof that I'm a US citizen and they would eventually let me through after chastising me for losing my passport.

 

[MARC Rider]

And like I said, it should not take six weeks to produce a frickin' 20 page document with one embedded chip in an advanced country like the US. :lol:

And most of those pages are blank.

 

[jis]

I just received email from the Passport office that my renewed Passport should arrive by Priority Mail on Monday. That is almost exactly four weeks. So at least they do deliver as promised.

And it actually arrived Friday of the previous week.