Palm Beach Safety Patrol Trains - 2016

[MikefromCrete]

I think this same discussion raged on last year.

 

[pennyk]

What school were you from penny? Mr. Bosco from North Miami Junior High put that Washington trip together every year for all the north east dade schools. I went in eight grade.

I attended Palmetto Junior High School in Kendall. I think I went in 1966.

 

[Sauve850]

"Kowtow to a group of Cubs Scouts or whatever these are"..............Really?

 

[Thirdrail7]

I'm not attacking Safety Patrol, but what makes me upset is when Amtrak allows people to book these dates, knowing in advance they'd be cancelled, like my Texas Eagle. The track work they were doing was scheduled months before I booked for the dates I was travelling (unbeknownst to me, because I didn't check), and yet Amtrak allowed me to book it, Then cancelled it a week in advance.

Finally someone speaks some sense

Actually, you're way off base, but I'll take this with the post below.

Given that Amtrak, IIRC, either knows the dates in advance or should have an idea of them (given 40-odd years of working with them directly) you'd think Amtrak could work something out whereby they'd block the two sets of dates up until a certain point and slap a service notice on the website, with the SP having a reasonable "drop dead date" sometime in the fall to secure the trains. The alternative would be to put a coach and a sleeper (which ought to handle the early bookers) on the front end of the train and work with the SP people (and the crew) to keep the "regular" pax separate from the SP pax.

There's one other thing I'd do with this now, and that is (on the days in question) giving the Star a diner (and possibly an extra sleeper) for the one round-trip in question. When it was a "simple" question of switching trains for someone on the A-line that was one thing; now that there's a measurable difference in service on the trains, the services are not interchangeable.

You both assume that the answer is always know in advance. How many times has track worked been extended, or just popped up? Sure I can venture to say that CSX will perform work on the Peninsula Subdivision at some point between June and August. They pretty much do it every year necessitating bus operation and/or termination on the route. Same goes for NS and their track work between ATL-BHM. However, it is not confirmed UNTIL the hosts confirm it, which may not come until week before the date. Sometimes, it comes days before the date.

If that is the case, Amtrak shouldn't even make reservation in advance since at any time, things can change.

To tie this into the WPB, this an operation that used to be supported by another train. I explained in great detail why CSX doesn't have to allow an operating agreement for an extra train and why it is in Amtrak's best interest to operate this as the Meteor. This is a major deal for Florida and a major deal for Amtrak, particularly when you're balancing the books. The dates take a while to confirm. Amtrak could probably block off the entire month of January, but I HAVE seen this special operate in early February on occasions. This year, the numbers even changed a few times because some of students weren't going to make the trip.

This trip isn't like Christmas, which is known to fall on the 25th of every year. It has a rough schedule which sometimes isn't confirmed until after early birds sometime make their reservations.

If someone sued Amtrak, I doubt Amtrak would have a leg to stand on. This isn't an unforseen operational reason, or "act of God," or something forced on them by the host railroads (see NS trackwork truncation of Crescent), this is Amtrak making a conscious decision to host one set of passengers over another which can't possibly be legal under common carrier standards.

You know as much about this as you do turboliners. They have more then a leg to stand on and without going into details, has been upheld. Remember something...Amtrak is often beholden to the whims of those who fund it. I'm VERY sure that CSX and Amtrak will operate this train as long as someone wants it to operate. h34r:

I think this same discussion raged on last year.

I'll set my watch for next year.

 

[KauaiJohn]

I went in 66 as well. Did your group spend your last night in a big amusement park?

 

[neroden]

I stand by my assessment that this is a totally mickeymouse operation which degrades the political case for Amtrak being an actual transportation service. Obviously it's legal for Amtrak to do this; it is probably financially beneficial in the short term; and from what ThirdRail is implying, there are Congressmen backing this operation. It's still a ridiculous way to do things and no civilized country would do it this way. But then we live in an uncivilized country.

The operation is a black mark on Amtrak and helps make the case to cancel the Florida services. After all, this proves that they're just cruise trains, right? They're not operated for anyone who has to be anywhere on a particular DAY. Charters take priority over them, so they obviously aren't regular scheduled service.

 

[pennyk]

I went in 66 as well. Did your group spend your last night in a big amusement park?

Yes, and I remember it was really cold that night (for a kid from Miami without a coat).

I usually do not save mementos, but I saved the little pin that we received to identify our group. I will attempt to post a photo of that pin, which may need to be rotated.

 

[Ryan]

I just turned my laptop sideways.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

I stand by my assessment that this is a totally mickeymouse operation which degrades the political case for Amtrak being an actual transportation service. Obviously it's legal for Amtrak to do this; it is probably financially beneficial in the short term; and from what ThirdRail is implying, there are Congressmen backing this operation. It's still a ridiculous way to do things and no civilized country would do it this way. But then we live in an uncivilized country.

The operation is a black mark on Amtrak and helps make the case to cancel the Florida services. After all, this proves that they're just cruise trains, right? They're not operated for anyone who has to be anywhere on a particular DAY. Charters take priority over them, so they obviously aren't regular scheduled service.

I stand by my assessment that this is a totally Mickey Mouse discussion every year.

 

[railiner]

I am wondering why such an obscure organization seems to successfully run this operation over such a long period...since 1956, was it?

I mean...why not other "safety patrols" from other locales, or other organizations such as Scouting, etc....

I suspect that the promoters of this annual event get 'more out of it' then the children do in the way of free travel as chaperones or other financial gain....

 

[Seaboard92]

It could be an issue I with Amtrak Charters. I know I haven't heard back from them. And I submitted a preliminary proposal for my trains in September. And a formal proposal right before New Years. And I haven't heard anything. I think it's a good thing to get a new generation on the rails. But I think there are better ways of handling it. Maybe tagging the safety patrol on the rear. But it might be an equipment issue. Plus CSX had a rule over passenger trains being over x length. But I forget what it is. But putting the sleepers on the star along with the diner still preserves the equipment turn. Do they use the sleepers on this run or are they empty?

 

[CCC1007]

The sleepers from what I've heard are used for the chaperones and the teachers.

 

[railiner]

The sleepers from what I've heard are used for the chaperones and the teachers.

Figured that....they probably get a free ride, and leave the overnight 'chaperoning' to the train crew.......

 

[jis]

The sleepers from what I've heard are used for the chaperones and the teachers.

Figured that....they probably get a free ride, and leave the overnight 'chaperoning' to the train crew.......

And this probabilistic observation based on exactly what facts? Just curious.

 

[Ryan]

Likely the same place he pulled out

"I suspect that the promoters of this annual event get 'more out of it' then the children do in the way of free travel as chaperones or other financial gain...."

Who cares, anyways. It's not like it's actual *people* or something we're insulting on the internet. They'll probably never read it, so we can make up whatever baseless accusations we feel like about them.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Having been in education for nearly 30 years I can attest to the fact that few chaperones would consider their job as a perk It can be fun to bring a group of students to a historical event or place but the attention that must be paid to details and to the behaviors of young people usually deters all, but the most hardy and psychologically stable. \

I would also doubt that the chaperones would be spending their nights in sleepers and allowing the students to be in the coaches without supervision. This is not something that Amtrak personnel would take on as a responsibility in lieu of those adults who are with the students.

In conclusion, I can say that our Florida trip was impacted by the excursion two years ago and although it was a hassle changing some reservations, the world did not end. And I hope that all those kids on the train had a great time, saw & enjoyed DC, and learned to love trains as well.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I stand by my assessment that this is a totally mickeymouse operation which degrades the political case for Amtrak being an actual transportation service. Obviously it's legal for Amtrak to do this; it is probably financially beneficial in the short term; and from what ThirdRail is implying, there are Congressmen backing this operation. It's still a ridiculous way to do things and no civilized country would do it this way. But then we live in an uncivilized country.

The operation is a black mark on Amtrak and helps make the case to cancel the Florida services. After all, this proves that they're just cruise trains, right? They're not operated for anyone who has to be anywhere on a particular DAY. Charters take priority over them, so they obviously aren't regular scheduled service.

You're the Mickey Mouse, Neorden. This is a long-standing program that actually puts potential future riders on the rails. If Amtrak had the extra equipment and CSX wasn't a jerk about running extra trains, there wouldn't be this "problem." I highly doubt that two round trips a year are a political case for canceling the Florida trains. This kind of over the top commentary helps negates any actual useful opinions that you post here.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I stand by my assessment that this is a totally mickeymouse operation which degrades the political case for Amtrak being an actual transportation service. Obviously it's legal for Amtrak to do this; it is probably financially beneficial in the short term; and from what ThirdRail is implying, there are Congressmen backing this operation. It's still a ridiculous way to do things and no civilized country would do it this way. But then we live in an uncivilized country.

The operation is a black mark on Amtrak and helps make the case to cancel the Florida services. After all, this proves that they're just cruise trains, right? They're not operated for anyone who has to be anywhere on a particular DAY. Charters take priority over them, so they obviously aren't regular scheduled service.

While I'd like to see this handled in a different fashion, I disagree with saying the operation is a black mark. This stuff happens all the time, albeit in smaller and private fashions. Years before the internet, it was not uncommon to show up to something like a restaurant or an amusement park and find it closed for some sort of special event.

This is similar and in the end, beneficial. Tyler mentions that it is bad business, but ultimately most businesses will cater to their best and repeat customers. This isn't a small undertaking. This is over 600 people on multiple trips. It has been as high as 800 at one point. The WPB specials are GUARANTEED revenue that may ultimately turn into spill revenue years later when these students become adults.

We also must remember the good will and memories these trips generate. People in this very thread are



Ummm....no.

 

[KauaiJohn]

There was no regular passenger service to Miami on CSX in those years, FEC had one until the tressell at Greynolds Park got blown up during the strike, they never resumed passenger service. this was a charter train. I think that trip kindled a passion in me that still 50 years latter has me planning my next train trip.

 

[railiner]

The sleepers from what I've heard are used for the chaperones and the teachers.

Figured that....they probably get a free ride, and leave the overnight 'chaperoning' to the train crew.......

And this probabilistic observation based on exactly what facts? Just curious.

Likely the same place he pulled out

"I suspect that the promoters of this annual event get 'more out of it' then the children do in the way of free travel as chaperones or other financial gain...."

Who cares, anyways. It's not like it's actual *people* or something we're insulting on the internet. They'll probably never read it, so we can make up whatever baseless accusations we feel like about them.

Okay....you're both correct...I should not have expressed my opinions on this without some basis in fact, other than just feelings....I apologize to anyone offended by this.

As far as the chaperones occupying the sleepers....I did happen to read a transportation notice back in the '80's that did in fact state that the sleepers would be used for that purpose. I suppose they could have had rotating "watches" during the night to monitor the coaches.....

 

[haolerider]

Having read all the comments regarding this charter, it confirms my comments of year's ago: "All it takes is a keyboard and a modem to become an expert on any subject!"

Time to move on folks!

 

[railiner]

There was no regular passenger service to Miami on CSX in those years, FEC had one until the tressell at Greynolds Park got blown up during the strike, they never resumed passenger service. this was a charter train. I think that trip kindled a passion in me that still 50 years latter has me planning my next train trip.

Not sure how this got into the conversation, but....

prior to the Seaboard Coastline merger in 1967, Seaboard Airline Railroad had their own route and trains into Miami. The Atlantic Coast Line RR pooled with the FEC to reach Miami. When the FEC had the big strike, and after a while it was apparent it would be a lengthy one, Either the ICC ordered it, or ACL negotiated with SAL (not sure of the history there), to carry ACL trains from central Florida into Miami over the SAL.

 

[Ryan]

Okay....you're both correct...I should not have expressed my opinions on this without some basis in fact, other than just feelings....I apologize to anyone offended by this.

This is the Internet, you can't admit you're wrong or apologize?

Seriously, that is a classy move. :hi:

 

[neroden]

Oh, there's a history here, and someone described it last year. The Safety Patrol Trains *used* to be extra sections, and that made perfect sense. I forget which year it was that they started replacing the Silver Meteor and cancelling people's reservations. It was clearly due to a shortage of equipment, and that's the mickeymouse aspect.

It would be nice if Amtrak had enough equipment to go back to operating them as extras. Everything else could be dealt with. If the train ran in the same slot with the Silver Meteor, chasing its tail, CSX wouldn't complain; they have been fine with this in the past and I remember several reports of specials "chasing" the LSL or CL. Crew can be found; Amtrak has always managed to do that for specials and extras. But there's no quick way to round up enough passenger cars for the Safety Patrol, so Amtrak is stuck with this.

Years before the internet, it was not uncommon to show up to something like a restaurant or an amusement park and find it closed for some sort of special event.

Yes, I remember that. My father was a heavy scheduler of business dinners and banquets. Whenever he had a reservation at a restaurant for dinner for himself, and found it unexpectedly closed without warning due to a special event, he *blacklisted that restaurant*. He's not the only one who had that reaction. Restaurants which behaved in that irresponsible way did have a tendency to close pretty quickly compared to restaurants which operated like actual restaurants.

It's bad business in the long run.

By contrast, I've also been to restaurants which were *almost entirely* occupied by a special event, but which honored the reservations made previously (typically only 1 or 2 families). They didn't get blacklisted.

Given the shortage of rolling stock and locomotives, Amtrak's choice may be the best of a bad set of choices. But the sooner Amtrak can get enough rolling stock to run this train as an extra section, the better.

I'll just add that my parents have been taking trips to Florida every January. I was going to suggest the train (my mother likes trains), but I honestly can't suggest it with nonsense like this going on. Getting a reservation cancelled out on them for no good reason would lead them to *never* consider Amtrak again.

 

[railiner]

Okay....you're both correct...I should not have expressed my opinions on this without some basis in fact, other than just feelings....I apologize to anyone offended by this.

This is the Internet, you can't admit you're wrong or apologize?

Seriously, that is a classy move. :hi:

Thanks (?) ..... :unsure:

I wouldn't say anything on the internet, that I wouldn't say if I was standing in a room with the participants....