Old Amtrak Equipment in St. Louis

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tubaia

Train Attendant
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
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96
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Iowa
I just posted some photos at AU Flickr of some old Amtrak equipment in St. Louis. Anybody know the background of these? There was a discussion a few months back about some old equipment on the east side of the Mississippi, in Illinois, but this was in St. Louis, right behind the Union Station parking lot, or just west of the STL station.

Off topic: I've also added a few other photos from this trip to St. Louis Union Station to my Flickr account, including night shots of the new station, as well as some photos from my summer trip on the EB.
 
Those are Horizon cars, they're only twenty years old. The other car is a PV. The Horizons are just philthy unless fresh from BG.

cpamtfan-Peter
 
Well, the Genesis and Horizon definately aren't new. Incidentally, there appears to be a small Amtrak consist on the WYE just west of STL on Google Maps, don't know if that's the same thing in the pics or not.
 
I just posted some photos at AU Flickr of some old Amtrak equipment in St. Louis. Anybody know the background of these? There was a discussion a few months back about some old equipment on the east side of the Mississippi, in Illinois, but this was in St. Louis, right behind the Union Station parking lot, or just west of the STL station.
Off topic: I've also added a few other photos from this trip to St. Louis Union Station to my Flickr account, including night shots of the new station, as well as some photos from my summer trip on the EB.
The place you're talking about east of the Mississippi is Gateway Railway Services. I was just there last week. Unfortunately, you can't get very close but there is a lot of old equipment. I was able to take three pictures but from a distance. I also went to the transportation museum which was very good and well worth the $4.00. Also, I went to Belleville, IL. with some friends. We ended up at Oliver C. Joseph Chrysler dealership, the oldest Chrysler dealership in the world. He has a Pennsylvania business car built in 1927 (if I remember correctly) that he has restored with as much as authenticity as possible for the era and has painted it Great Northern colors. It was a museum in itself. Brad Joseph, the owner, graciously took me on a tour of the car and let me spend as much time as I wanted on it. It is inside the dealership and is wonderful. We also visited Kansas City and went to Union Station. I am in the process of getting my pictures organized so I can post them. It was a great mini trip.
 
Well, the Genesis and Horizon definately aren't new. Incidentally, there appears to be a small Amtrak consist on the WYE just west of STL on Google Maps, don't know if that's the same thing in the pics or not.
The car I'm most particularly interested in is this one labeled Pullman - Pacific Union. Any thoughts?

As far as the Google Maps is concerned, that sounds like the correct vicinity, though things have moved a little since then. Move east just slightly and there is a small building right by the tracks. You'll notice two cars by themselves. I think those are the two in the above photo (in which case it is a car and a locomotive). The rest of the photos were taken on either side of that building, though they aren't on the Google map.
 
The car I'm most particularly interested in is this one labeled Pullman - Pacific Union. Any thoughts?
http://www.americanrail.com/pacific_union.htm

Also formerly Amtrak 2890.

At first I was confused by this because this car is silver and most if not all Union Pacific cars were yellow.

The reference referred to the car Pacific Union operating on the Union Pacific Railroad from Chicago to the west coast in the various "City" trains. Problem with that is that all those trains were yellow,not silver.

So I checked the Amtrak car spotter roster, found it there, as above, and also verified that it was in the old pre-Amtrak equipment books that I have. All checks out, that car was indeed a Union Pacific car(one of 60),It was indeed made of stainless steel---- but yet it was painted yellow. I have the statement to indicate that in "The Union Pacific Streamliners" by Harold Ranks and William Kratviille.

So, obviously in the extensive renovation of the car they did remove the yellow paint. Not quite sure how that is done but I know it has happened through the years.

In the streaminer era many trains were made of stainless steel and they often went unpainted,since it was a very beautiful silver in its natural state. But some railroads did paint their stainless steel cars various colors. Other streamliners were made of aluminum alloys and other materials rather than stainess steel.
 
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In the streaminer era many trains were made of stainless steel and they often went unpainted,since it was a very beautiful silver in its natural state.
I think it was probably more because it's cheaper to just leave them unpainted. Other train cars probably had to be painted to keep them from rusting. And that meant they needed to be repainted/patched up every few years. There was definitely some marketing around the look of stainless steel trains, but I think it was just that: marketing. (I think that was a big reason why Amtrak didn't keep any non-stainless equipment - they didn't want to keep painting it.)

I'm not 100% sure of this for long distance passenger cars, but I know it's true of the NYC subway and I'm sure they've had cars made of all the same materials as those old Pullman and Budd cars. They finally got rid of their last painted cars a few years ago, and they were total rustbuckets by the time they left the fleet. Some of them actually had big holes in their ceilings or walls where rain water would just pour right in. I also have pictures of myself sitting on the steps of the old Sioux Chief Traintel, which used a few Pullman cars from the "City of San Francisco", and you can clearly see big patches of rust in the pictures. (That was an interesting hotel!)

UP probably painted their stainless cars because they planned to run them alongside other painted cars. I have seen a few of their yellow-painted stainless cars, they look a bit weird. I always think fluted sides look strange when painted, but maybe that's just because I'm not used to it. Here is a good picture of one for anyone interested in seeing what this car originally looked like.
 
Budd themselves were said to have preferred the cars unpainted.

Honestly, the silver appearance was a major reason for it.

Amtrak didn't keep much Pullman equipment around because they didn't need all the equipment they inherrited, and the equipment they had was in quality of Budd, ACF, STLCC, and Pullman, in that order. The Budd cars were better quality cars, and they didn't need much of the garbage from Pullman and St. Louis Car.

That only Budd equipment survives from the Heritage fleet today is not a coincidence, and its not because Amtrak would need to paint them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bought the Horizons.
 
Budd themselves were said to have preferred the cars unpainted.
Not sure what kind of business would allow their vendors to dictate their branding for them. (Pullman got away with putting "Pullman" on the sides of their cars because they owned them.) I highly doubt many railroads paid much attention to Budd's wishes after buying their cars unless it saved them money to do so. And UP was not the only company to paint stainless Budd cars; PRR did too, at least.

That only Budd equipment survives from the Heritage fleet today is not a coincidence, and its not because Amtrak would need to paint them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bought the Horizons.
They bought the Horizons because they were short of equipment and got an offer they couldn't refuse.
 
I, too, am sure I have read many times through the years that Budd wanted their stainless steel cars to remain unpainted. I understand they were especially mad in 1940(early in the game) when PRR had the South Wind painted red.

But yes, several railroads did go ahead and paint.

But a good testimony to the beauty of unpainted stainless steel goes back to the Seaboard naming of its Silver Fleet. That was the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, also the Silver Comet(which ran NYC-WAS,Atlanta,Birmingham).There have been those who thought those trains were named after the elderly silver haired snow birds who rode them in droves during the winter. Not so. In 1939 when the Silver Meteor was placed in service stainless steel was very much a novelty, not the norm it became. The Silver Star and Silver Comet were built and named the same way in 1947. The public was enamered by those streaks of silver sailing through the town,which I have read about more times than I can count.

Yes, stainless steel construction inside and out was the key to lasting, whether painted or not. Some railroads just used exterior stainless steel sheething but not stainless steel inside (no, I do not know the words for what I am saying, I am not a mechanical person). That was an attempt to save money but it did not work because such cars rusted from the inside out themselves. Southern Railroad got into trouble with that for its lightweight cars ordered in 1941. When it ordered more in 1949 it did not repeat that mistake.

Virtually all UP equipment was yellow, whether lightweight/steamlined or heavyweight.Note that some stainless steel equipment is not fluted.I kind of think a lot of their lightweight equiment was aluminum, thus probably a lot of rusting.

Note that being made of material which will rust sooner is not a reflection on the inner quality, beauty and amenities of such a streamlined car.
 
Budd themselves were said to have preferred the cars unpainted.
Not sure what kind of business would allow their vendors to dictate their branding for them. (Pullman got away with putting "Pullman" on the sides of their cars because they owned them.) I highly doubt many railroads paid much attention to Budd's wishes after buying their cars unless it saved them money to do so. And UP was not the only company to paint stainless Budd cars; PRR did too, at least.
The business world in which the company is entitled to have opinions. Just because they felt something doesn't mean they followed though, but it also doesn't mean they didn't feel it. Of course some companies painted them- they weren't required to listen.

As for Pullman being on the cars, it was something of a prestige for a car to be operated by Pullman. The customers liked being reminded the cars were operated by Pullman. Pullman was scrawled on cars not owned by Pullman.

That only Budd equipment survives from the Heritage fleet today is not a coincidence, and its not because Amtrak would need to paint them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have bought the Horizons.
They bought the Horizons because they were short of equipment and got an offer they couldn't refuse.
They coulda piggy-backed on VREs order of Mafersa coaches insteada NJTs.

Note that being made of material which will rust sooner is not a reflection on the inner quality, beauty and amenities of such a streamlined car.
Actually, the reason Pullman didn't pay Budd to allow them to use shot-welded stainless steel was purely cost. Thus a reflection of their dedication to quality, or lack thereof.

Budd cars cost more then Pullman cars. There was good reason for that- they were worth every penny.
 
What I have always read throughout the years as Gospel is that stainless steel is superior for three reasons:

1. high strenght

2. light weight

3. relatively non-corrosive when compared to other metals, whatever exactly those other metals might have been.

But also more expensive but pays in less maintenance needed.

My reference to inner quality was to the up-to-date furnishings, comfort level,attractiveness inside the car,the things the passenger sees, regardless of whatever it is constructed of.

The finest train in the land, the 20th Century Limited, was not stainless steel so far as I know. At least not at first. Of course it could have been but if so it was smoothsided and painted two shades of gray. In later years there was some stainless added via coaches and slumbercoaches. But nobody can contest the beauty of the interior appointments regardless of whether it was slowly rusting itself to death

Of course paint peels off, a separate thing from rusting. If an old car is rusting and peeling both, guess it never was stainless steel.
 
Budd themselves were said to have preferred the cars unpainted.
Not sure what kind of business would allow their vendors to dictate their branding for them. (Pullman got away with putting "Pullman" on the sides of their cars because they owned them.) I highly doubt many railroads paid much attention to Budd's wishes after buying their cars unless it saved them .
Actually, as a result of an antitrust action in the mid-1940's there are two companies involved:

Pullman-Standard - the manufacturer,

The Pullman Company - the operating company.

The operating company was sold to a consortium of 57 railroads which actually owned the cars and leased them to Pullman to staff and operate them. That is why the Pullman name appeared on those cars (regardless of the builder)- generallly with the owning railroads name in small letters near the door. The operating company ceased operation at the end of 1968 and the few remaning sleepers were operated by the owning carriers untll Amtrak in 1971.
 
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Budd themselves were said to have preferred the cars unpainted.
Not sure what kind of business would allow their vendors to dictate their branding for them. (Pullman got away with putting "Pullman" on the sides of their cars because they owned them.) I highly doubt many railroads paid much attention to Budd's wishes after buying their cars unless it saved them .
Actually, as a result of an antitrust action in the mid-1940's there are two companies involved:

Pullman-Standard - the manufacturer,

The Pullman Company - the operating company.

The operating company was sold to a consortium of 57 railroads which actually owned the cars and leased them to Pullman to staff and operate them. That is why the Pullman name appeared on those cars (regardless of the builder)- generallly with the owning railroads name in small letters near the door. The operating company ceased operation at the end of 1968 and the few remaning sleepers were operated by the owning carriers untll Amtrak in 1971.
And this brings us to why sleeping cars used to be called "pullmans". That referencing the operating company rather than the Pullman-Standard manufacturing company. We are indeed speaking of sleeping cars built by any and all manufacturers.

Not every railroad participated with the Pullman Company,but the vast majority did.

So what was the point of the Pullman Company? It meant cars could be shuttled around all over the nation as needed with a minimum of trouble. Of course we do not need a special company to do that today since Amtrak is all one national company.

But look back to the days when there were about 100 railroads with passenger services. They needed all the cooperation they could use back then. Keep in mind that some railroads were in competiton with each other--something we can scarcely imagine today with one national company always fighting for its one budget.

The pullman company enabled cars to be shuffled around in many different ways as needed. For example a point frequently mentioned here is how extra pullmans were put on the Florida trains during the winter. Well, some of these were borrowed from Western railroads which were not as busy in the winter. The Florida Special, the South Wind, the City of Miami and others often had "foreign lines" on them--like Great Northern,Northern Pacific, Union Pacific and others. And of course special moves, like political conventions, football games, the Kentuky Derby,etc, needed all the help they could get from the Pullman company.

Again, the whole concept is completely useless today since we have just one national company to shuffle its equipment around as needed (if we have it, that is)without any permission from any alien body.

If a pullman car was bad ordered and there was no spare from the operating railroad, then, thanks, to the pullman company, sometimes a car could be borrowed from an off-line railroad should it happen to be available.

Keep in mind that there were literally dozens of sleeping car/pullman configurations back then. By no means was it just 10-6's. So, if a train's pullman with l2 bedrooms was on the blink, and the only spare had 22 roomettes, they had a problem. But what if another railroad cooperating with Pullman had a 12 bedroom it would not need for awhile, then perhaps that could be temporarily borrowed.

It was interesting, as a child, to see the trains come in sometimes with some kind of oddball cars from a strange railroad. Of course we get some of that today,like when the Vermonter baggage car was going all around the country not too long ago.
 
My reference to inner quality was to the up-to-date furnishings, comfort level,attractiveness inside the car,the things the passenger sees, regardless of whatever it is constructed of.
The finest train in the land, the 20th Century Limited, was not stainless steel so far as I know. At least not at first. Of course it could have been but if so it was smoothsided and painted two shades of gray. In later years there was some stainless added via coaches and slumbercoaches. But nobody can contest the beauty of the interior appointments regardless of whether it was slowly rusting itself to death
I'd chalk "inner quality" to the amount of care and trouble put into constructing things. In the 1980s, few people would contest that a Mercedes-Benz 240D was a higher quality, not to mention a heck of a lot more expensive, car than the Cadillac Cimmarron. The Cimmaron was faster, had a leather interior, power mirrors/windows/locks/seats/steering, an automatic transmission, alloy wheels, included a radio in the base price, and even included air-conditioning.

The 240D had none of that. It took it close to 30 seconds to hit 60 mph, and it topped out in the 70s. The upholstry was MB-TEX nuke-proof vinyl. The windows, mirrors, seats, and locks were manual, and the steering was unassisted. A manual transmission was not only standard, but given the cars 54 bhp and 3500 lb curb weight, mandatory. The wheels were steelies. Both a radio, and setup for one (speakers and wiring) were only available options. The interior trim was hard, durable black plastic. Until 1980, outside of the US, A/C wasn't even an option.

But most Cimmarons are in junk yards rusting away with all their features broken. On the other hand, an impressive 83% of all W123 MB 240Ds built are still in service. Millions of miles on the odometer is not uncommon. The Cadillac may have been more opulant, but it sure as heck was not higher quality.
 
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Indeed it did and I used it! Had a little trip to Kirkwood to watch freight trains, caught the 311 out and 314 back. Station is quite nice and a lot better than the old shack I used on Saturday.

2 ticket counters,Quick Trak, baggage area, ATM, Deli and a Pizza Hut and KFC to come. Its clean, warm and well lit, almost quite pleasant in a new and bland sort of way!

Pity 314 was 2 hrs 40 late!

(Not really, gave me more time train watching!!)
 
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