Oh my goodness, trying to get a passport?

[iowa train fan]

We are trying to get passport cards for our trip to Montreal on the Adirondack. What a pain in the rear. I figured I would at least buy the tickets but no, need passport numbers to even make the reservation. OK, went to the post office Saturday to get passports, oh that will take 4 to 6 weeks. We leave in six weeks! My copy of the birth certificate was accepted by PO, they would not accept my wife's, did not have parent's information on it even know she paid 80 dollars to get this copy a year ago. State department will not accept. Now I need to try to get a hold of my federal representative and see if he can expedite and help to get a new copy of her BC.But now we have the time issue, not sure if we can even get the passport card in time. Until I get the card, I will not be able to make the reservation. HOW ON EARTH DO ILLEGAL PEOPLE GET BY IN THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE LEGALS DON'T SEEM TO HAVE MUCH OF A CHANCE. I do not get it, with computers and everything, you would think this information can be verified in no time. Yet I can go and vote and not even show ID. Any advice??? Thank you

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Oh how simple things once were.....no more quick, spur of the moment trips across the border!

I grew up in a border community. Most of the time no ID was even requested….neither a driver license, birth or baptismal certificate.....let alone a passport!

The community on the US side had a McDonalds before we did and it was the most common thing to just load us kids in the car and head over for a meal or a treat in the evening. We had the hockey rink on our side and our minor hockey team was about a 50/50 split of US/Canadian players. When we had practice at 7am on a Saturday morning they were here too except it was 6am to them……..the Eastern/Atlantic time zone went down the middle of the river.

Our US/Canadian communities even shared a Fire Service. I read where a similar community on the Quebec/New York State border also relied on the other for fire back-up and recently when the call went out for back-up, the Canadians were held-up at the border for passport checks.....even running the license plates on the fire trucks! Well the building burnt and there were a lot of protests from the US community to your border officials.

 

[NW cannonball]

Advice - look through http://travel.state.gov/passport -- all the requirements are there, including requirements for "Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship" if the birth certificate does not meet requirements. Also advice on how and where to get passport faster, including in-person sites (most require an appointment, some do not require that you have tickets for international travel already)

More advice - "don't panic". It was 5 years ago when I got my current passport, the old one was expired and lost (probably in the trash) and there was a big hoo-hah about passport issuance delays at that time with new requirements and needing a passport to get to Canada (actually, to get back home from Canada, at the time). The estimated time was 4-8 weeks, as it is now, but it arrived by ordinary mail in 10 days. Now, who knows? My passport worked for Japan, but haven't tried it for Canada yet.

The issue with wife's birth certificate not meeting requirements is best raised with the issuing authority, at leisure, if possible. Use the "secondary evidence" if available.

The bits about "illegals" not relevant on this forum, but really, illegals have a hard time getting passports nowadays, that's part of the point of the tighter regulations. It's not about "getting by in this country" it's about being able to get a U S Passport, which lets you go about anywhere, even back home to the USA.

 

[iowa train fan]

Sorry, did not mean it as a derogatory comment about illegal’s, it was just meant how on earth can anyone survive here without 57 form of identification. Sorry if I offended anyone, did not mean too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for the advice

 

[jis]

Advice - look through http://travel.state.gov/passport -- all the requirements are there, including requirements for "Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship" if the birth certificate does not meet requirements. Also advice on how and where to get passport faster, including in-person sites (most require an appointment, some do not require that you have tickets for international travel already)
More advice - "don't panic". It was 5 years ago when I got my current passport, the old one was expired and lost (probably in the trash) and there was a big hoo-hah about passport issuance delays at that time with new requirements and needing a passport to get to Canada (actually, to get back home from Canada, at the time). The estimated time was 4-8 weeks, as it is now, but it arrived by ordinary mail in 10 days. Now, who knows? My passport worked for Japan, but haven't tried it for Canada yet.

The issue with wife's birth certificate not meeting requirements is best raised with the issuing authority, at leisure, if possible. Use the "secondary evidence" if available.

The bits about "illegals" not relevant on this forum, but really, illegals have a hard time getting passports nowadays, that's part of the point of the tighter regulations. It's not about "getting by in this country" it's about being able to get a U S Passport, which lets you go about anywhere, even back home to the USA.

If you are willing to pay for it, there are all sorts of expedited Passport Services available, some even able to get a Passport issued within a week or less, provided of course there is no hitch with documentation. Last time I renewed my Passport it was between two international trips separated from each other by 10 days, and our company's document handling contractor was able to get the new Passport to me in 5 days. Heaven knows what it cost the company to pull that off though.
Speaking of "going anywhere", there are some significant places in the world where one would prefer to hide ones US Passport away and use a second country Passport if possible. People who have dual citizenship can do that. Then there are countries where dual citizens are only allowed to use their other Passport to enter their second country of citizenship, not the US one. US has a similar rule. If you have a US Passport that must be used to enter US and not any other Passport (for whatever reason). Fortunately I don't have to deal with any of this, since my country of birth does not permit full fledged dual citizenship.

BTW Cannonball, a Passport that allowed you to enter the US coming from Japan will most certainly allow you to enter the US coming from Canada, unless of course it has a special endorsement disallowing such, which would be astounding to say the least!

 

[NW cannonball]

Sorry, did not mean it as a derogatory comment about illegal’s, it was just meant how on earth can anyone survive here without 57 form of identification. Sorry if I offended anyone, did not mean too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for the advice

You sure didn't offend me. Just presented a frustrating problem. I think -- "hey moderators" we could use an item in http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum/78-amtrak-faqs-first-time-rider-info/ about the border-crossing requirements.

The origins and development of the border control regimen are best discussed elsewhere.

The requirements for cross-border travel seem appropriate to this forum. How to best present the special requirements for cross-border trips.

 

[jis]

Sorry, did not mean it as a derogatory comment about illegal’s, it was just meant how on earth can anyone survive here without 57 form of identification. Sorry if I offended anyone, did not mean too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for the advice

Say, does your state of residence issue enhanced driver's license which is adequate for traveling on ground to/from Canada? If they do, than that might be a much quicker bet.

 

[Ryan]

Assuming her "Iowa" is correct, that unfortunately won't work. Looks like WA, MI, VT and NY are the only states that participate?

I thought that it was common knowledge that the passport process could take weeks/months. I've maintained an active passport since I was in college (although I seldom needed one since I was entering and leaving countries on a gray painted ship ).

 

[NW cannonball]

Washington, Michigan, New York, Vermont.

Wishing Minnesota, Nodak, Montana would join.

 

[tricia]

It seems bizarre that Amtrak requires passport numbers to make a reservation on the Adirondack to Montreal. VIA Rail doesn't require any such documentation for US citizens to make a reservation on the trans-Canada Canadian train. (Just recently made such a VIA Rail reservation.)

Does anyone have any insight into why Amtrak requires passport number to make a reservation?

 

[Ryan]

Too many people showing up to the train without the proper documents and complaining loudly, I'd guess.

 

[PRR 60]

It seems bizarre that Amtrak requires passport numbers to make a reservation on the Adirondack to Montreal. VIA Rail doesn't require any such documentation for US citizens to make a reservation on the trans-Canada Canadian train. (Just recently made such a VIA Rail reservation.)
Does anyone have any insight into why Amtrak requires passport number to make a reservation?

Two reasons:

First, the information is to ensure that passengers intending to cross the border have the proper documentation. If Amtrak transports someone to the border who is then denied entry due to not possessing the proper documentation, Amtrak has to pay to return them home.

Second, Amtrak sends a listing of all cross-border passengers, including documentation details, to both the US and Canadian authorities in order to allow both sides to screen for non-admissible persons. This is done multiple times beginning before the train departs and including a final time as the train is en route.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

...........VIA Rail doesn't require any such documentation for US citizens to make a reservation on the trans-Canada Canadian train. (Just recently made such a VIA Rail reservation.)

The Canadian doesn’t cross an international border.

I’m a Canadian and can make a reservation to board an Amtrak train travelling within the US and I don’t need a passport number.....but If I board an Amtrak train that will be crossing the border, I do need to provide the number.

 

[jis]

Second, Amtrak sends a listing of all cross-border passengers, including documentation details, to both the US and Canadian authorities in order to allow both sides to screen for non-admissible persons. This is done multiple times beginning before the train departs and including a final time as the train is en route.

Lest someone thinks that Amtrak does this just for the heck of it.... it is actually a legal requirement. It is part of the APIS II (Advanced Passenger Information System) that must be followed by all carriers carrying passengers across borders. Both sides get to review the list and make a decision about individual on the train/plane.
I think that for the Adirondack and the Maple Leaf, the final APIS submission is made after ticket issuance is closed on the reservation system. I am not sure upto what point a Conductor is allowed to add passengers who do not have reservation, if at all.

BTW, a very revealing thing happened on my last flight to Israel Thursday before last. Just before our plane was about to push back the departure was delayed apparently because Israel objected to one passenger on the APIS that was supplied to them - or so was whispered among the staff, no public announcements to the effect. I was at my usual exit row seat facing two of the cabin crew in their jump seats, and overheard the conversation. We waited while this passenger and his baggage was offloaded. I did not realize how quickly this information flows back and forth, and was somewhat surprised and impressed that Israel had already had time to review and react to the final APIS list even before the plane had a chance to depart!

 

[The Davy Crockett]

There was a time when Amtrak did not require passport numbers for reservations to Canada and one could take spur-of-the-moment trips on Amtrak across the border, but times have changed. This requirement was probably placed on Amtrak and not something Amtrak decided to start doing on its own.

EDIT: jis posted as I was writing...

 

[tricia]

Thanks for the clarifications, y'all, about requiring passport numbers for reservations.

Still seems odd to me. I understand that cross-border transport would have different rules. But come to think of it, when I made airline reservations to/from Pittsburgh and Canada (for that trip on the Canadian), passport numbers weren't required to buy those tickets--although of course we'll have to have our passports with us when we actually travel.

 

[Ryan]

How long ago was that?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Still seems odd to me. I understand that cross-border transport would have different rules. But come to think of it, when I made airline reservations to/from Pittsburgh and Canada (for that trip on the Canadian), passport numbers weren't required to buy those tickets--although of course we'll have to have our passports with us when we actually travel.

For as long as I can remember having a passport number (and the physical book itself) has been a requirement to check in for an international trip, but not to purchase a ticket. I've bought tickets to Europe and Asia without entering my passport number until checking in. In fact having an international trip already booked with tickets in hand is the only way I know of to get a passport created in a single day. Suddenly that four to six week nonsense becomes four to six hours. Maybe it's changed now but last I checked you could buy an international ticket from Amtrak online without entering your passport number.

 

[jis]

Yes, you can still get a Passport in a few days provided you are able to establish the need for expedited processing and are willing to pay through your nose for same.

 

[SeeBuyFly]

Anyone who can afford to travel (and is physically able to travel) should also have a passport at all times. It is incredible that anyone would think about getting a passport or passport card only after making travel plans.

Regarding the good old days when one could just drive cross the border to go to Macdonalds, the reason was, of course, that the border communities were racially homogenous. Your face was your passport. It is not a bad thing that things are not done that way any more.

 

[City of Miami]

I don't know why a poster put the word illegals in quotation marks. And there is nothing derogatory about the term, thus nothing to apologize for by the OP.

I just took a MOOC from Emory Univ on Citizenship and Immigration and illegal alien is the appropriate term, i.e. an alien is just a non-citizen and there are both legal and illegal aliens in the country. Just a fact, not a judgment. However my judgment after this course is that we have got ourselves into a hot mess on this front and the current proposed legislation does precious little to help.

 

[crescent2]

I bought an airline ticket for an international flight in March, and IIRC, I had to provide my passport number.

OP: You did not offend me. You were discussing a problem.

 

[BCL]

Getting an expedited passport isn't really all that hard. I talked to someone at my workplace who handles travel, and if in a hurry our company will pay for expediters to do this. They'll hand deliver the materials to the passport office and pick them up. They charge a bunch though. I actually live close enough that I could probably do it myself, and even that comes with about a $60 fee to expedite and an additional fee to send by overnight delivery. I think I can pick it up too. However, I live close enough to the San Francisco passport office to do it. Passport offices pretty much only handle in-person applications if they expedited, with the exception of special "passport days".

I actually got my first passport expedited. I don't think I was required to do so, but I submitted a travel itinerary that showed when I needed it. I got it in less than a week through regular mail. Back then they didn't even charge an expedite fee.

Once you've got a passport or passport card, renewals are pretty easy. The only issue is that you're supposed to submit what you've got regardless of what you're applying for. I renewed just my passport book, but I had to submit both my passport card and book. It's a weird requirement.

 

[BCL]

The requirement for at least one parent to be listed on the birth certificate is pretty new. The requirement says "parent(s)" so they at least acknowledge that sometimes the father's name isn't listed.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_5401.html
Beginning April 1, 2011, the U.S. Department of State will require the full names of the applicant’s parent(s) to be listed on all certified birth certificates to be considered as primary evidence of U.S. citizenship for all passport applicants, regardless of age. Certified birth certificates missing this information will not be acceptable as evidence of citizenship. This will not affect applications already in-process that have been submitted or accepted before the effective date.

Every city, county, or state agency that issues birth certificates should be able to provide a birth certificate that meets these requirements. However, sometimes the request has to be made specifically for a birth certificate with all this information. Doing it in person helps. Pennsylvania has been notorious for issuing computer-printout birth certificates that barely have any information. They don't list the city of birth (only the county) and many over the years didn't even list either parents' name. My kid was born in California, and by default the only birth certificates issued now are images of the original with both parents' name (I noted that the father's entry could be left blank).

And there is no agency that charges $80 for a birth certificate, so I'm assuming that a third party was involved like VitalChek and maybe an overnight fee. Maybe it's $50 for a State Dept issued birth certificate for the Panama Canal Zone, but that's all I can think that charges more than maybe $30.

 

[City of Miami]

I find the requirement about a parent quite odd - but certainly not the only oddity in this quagmire.

I learned in the above mentioned course that the USA uses jus soli to determine citizenship. This means that place of birth determines citizenship. If you are born within the boundaries of the US you are a US citizen; case closed. Jus sanguinis is the system that uses parentage to determine citizenship; this prevails throughout Europe.

We also learned that Congress has sole plenary power in this realm, significantly not subject to judicial review. It seems odd that the State Dept could make this requirement as this is in the executive branch. However, the whole issue is immensely complicated.