NY to Chicago

[BuzzKillington]

If Amtrak were to pick one route from NY to Chicago, which route would be the fastest? Would it be the old Broadway Limited route, the NYC LSL route, a combination of the two, or an unused but in tact other route? Maybe via Toledo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh? Just wondering what anyone thought would be good for a "premiere route", not necessarily considering amounts of passengers at intermediate stops or host railroad acceptance.

 

[the_traveler]

Well for one thing, it could not be the old Broadway Limited route. AFAIK, parts of that route has been abandoned and torn up!

 

[Texan Eagle]

Would it be possible to match (or even better?) the 20th Century Limited's 15 hr 45 min NYC-Chicago run? It is quite ironic that fifty years into the future, instead of getting faster, the train from NYC to Chicago has gotten over 3 hours slower

 

[afigg]

Would it be possible to match (or even better?) the 20th Century Limited's 15 hr 45 min NYC-Chicago run? It is quite ironic that fifty years into the future, instead of getting faster, the train from NYC to Chicago has gotten over 3 hours slower

Well, we all slow down as we get older. :lol:

The fastest route from NY to Chicago would be a new 186 to 220 mph HSR line paralleling I-80 in northern PA. And probably following the I-80 route, more or less, all the way to Chicago. But that would take a few 10s of billions to build.

The fastest route that Amtrak might achieve in the next decade or two would be the LSL route through upper state NY. If NY state builds a 110 mph line NYP to Buffalo. Then if the Midwest Regional Rail Plan gets built out with a 110 mph line from Chicago to Fort Wayne to Cleveland (in the post Ohio Gov. Kasich era), much of the route would be up to 110 mph speeds. The gap from Buffalo to Cleveland could be upgraded to 90 mph. Then a NYP to CHI day train should be possible.

 

[the_traveler]

FYI - the 20th Century Limited made (as the name implies) VERY Limited stops from CHI to NYC! AFAIK, the only stops were Buffalo and Albany!

That's part of the reason for the fast times. It did not have to stop at South Bend, Erie, Utica, etc...!

 

[Texan Eagle]

FYI - the 20th Century Limited made (as the name implies) VERY Limited stops from CHI to NYC! AFAIK, the only stops were Buffalo and Albany!

That's part of the reason for the fast times. It did not have to stop at South Bend, Erie, Utica, etc...!

True, but then Lake Shore LIMITED no?

This is the 1956 schedule of 20th Century Limited that I found online. I take no responsibility for its accuracy!

5 00P New York, NY (Grand Central Tml.) 8 30A

5 46P Harmon, NY 7 32A

7 45P Albany, NY -- --

7.15A Chicago, IL (Englewood Sta.) 3 59P

7 45A Chicago, IL (La Salle St. Sta.) 3 45P

 

[SubwayNut]

I don't think Albany to Grand Central has ever been possible in An hour an fifteen minutes, today it takes 2 hours and 25 minutes. In the early 2000s there was a never completed but begun project to renovate the Turboliners to get service under 2 hours, can't see it getting any faster

 

[Texan Eagle]

I don't think Albany to Grand Central has ever been possible in An hour an fifteen minutes, today it takes 2 hours and 25 minutes. In the early 2000s there was a never completed but begun project to renovate the Turboliners to get service under 2 hours, can't see it getting any faster

My mistake in copying the schedule. It seems it did not stop at Albany on the way to New York, so that 7 15 can be ignored. Corrected it in my post now

 

[railiner]

Historically, (sorry, I don't recall the exact dates), the fastest regularly scheduled train between the two cities was a brief time in the 1950's when the eastbound Broadway Limited ran from Chicago to New York in fifteen hours and thirty minutes.

 

[jis]

In 1956 Broadway Limited did New York Penn to Chicago Union in the same time as the 20th Century Ltd. westbound, and 15 mins faster eastbound, but with many more stops. Of course, the distance covered was 53 miles or so shorter too, but over much more difficult territory. It was a class act.

   29 	                 Train Number 	             28
 Daily    Miles 	    Stations                Daily

 5 00P Dp   0.0 New York, NY (Penna. Sta.) (ET) Ar 8 30A
R 5 14P     10.0 Newark, NJ 	         	 D  8 10A
R 6 21P     85.9 North Philadelphia, PA    	 D  7 03A
R 6 50P    111.4 Paoli, PA 	 		 D  6 35A
R 8 01P    194.6 Harrisburg, PA 	 	 D  5 18A (engine change)
R10 21P    325.4 Altoona, PA 	 		 D  3 03A
12 50A    439.3 Pittsburgh, PA 		   12 36A
D 4 18A    628.1 Crestline, OH (ET) 	 	    9 12P
D 5 22A    759.7 Fort Wayne, IN (CT) 	 	    6 15P
D 7 30A    900.7 Chicago, IL (Englewood Sta) 	    4 13P
 7 45A Ar 907.7 Chicago, IL (Union Sta.) (CT)   Dp 4 00P

Just as a reference point, today Indian Railways manages to run the Rajdhani between New Delhi and Howrah (Kolkata), a distance of about 900 miles (1441km) in 16:55 with 8 stops (1 less than Broadway's schedule above). The maximum allowed speed is 130kph (~81mph)

 

[Anderson]

In an ideal world, with the track upgrades planned in NY and MI, the fastest routing would probably be NYP-ALB-BUF-DET-CHI with an agreement with the respective border patrols to let the train run through BUF-DET non-stop. Depending on the exact conditions of the track in Canada versus that in OH, PA, and NY past Buffalo, this could be substantially faster. I think it might also be slightly shorter.

 

[jis]

In an ideal world, with the track upgrades planned in NY and MI, the fastest routing would probably be NYP-ALB-BUF-DET-CHI with an agreement with the respective border patrols to let the train run through BUF-DET non-stop. Depending on the exact conditions of the track in Canada versus that in OH, PA, and NY past Buffalo, this could be substantially faster. I think it might also be slightly shorter.

Unless some wonder strikes, that of course will never happen, and even if it does the train will spend an hour or two at each border while passengers drag themselves and all their bag and baggage through C&I. I think it is highly unlikely that we will ever see the operation of a locked train through Canada or US again. The last such was the one service across Maine, and that went away a while back. Also it would be hard to justify such when Cleveland and Toledo are not exactly well served.

 

[Anderson]

In an ideal world, with the track upgrades planned in NY and MI, the fastest routing would probably be NYP-ALB-BUF-DET-CHI with an agreement with the respective border patrols to let the train run through BUF-DET non-stop. Depending on the exact conditions of the track in Canada versus that in OH, PA, and NY past Buffalo, this could be substantially faster. I think it might also be slightly shorter.

Unless some wonder strikes, that of course will never happen, and even if it does the train will spend an hour or two at each border while passengers drag themselves and all their bag and baggage through C&I. I think it is highly unlikely that we will ever see the operation of a locked train through Canada or US again. The last such was the one service across Maine, and that went away a while back. Also it would be hard to justify such when Cleveland and Toledo are not exactly well served.

Hence my "ideal world" phrasing. Mind you, such a service got a look as late as the late 90s (as the "Twilight Limited" under Warrington; I know that the security bug has gotten really bad since then), but I also think that, at least as an overnight service, it makes a decent bit of sense. It's also worth noting that as badly-served as Cleveland and Toledo are, Detroit is even worse-off at the moment in some regards (notably going any direction but west).

 

[jphjaxfl]

Much of the old Erie Railroad from Jersey City to Chicago has been abandoned and I not sure if anything has been built on it. It was double tracked alignment all the way and wider than most right of ways because the Erie was originally built as wider than standard gauge. It might be good for a high speed line. In the early 1990s, I flew from Chicago to Fort Wayne on the a commuter plane. For a while we were flying right over the abandoned Erie right of way. It was a great perspective of how wide it was compared to other double tracked alignments

 

[jis]

It's also worth noting that as badly-served as Cleveland and Toledo are, Detroit is even worse-off at the moment in some regards (notably going any direction but west).

A more practical way to achieve eastbound connectivity from the Detroit area is to upgrade the Dearborn - Toledo track and run one of the two east coast trains via Dearborn as I mentioned earlier. That stands a chance of happening. I don;t think the DET - BUF idea stands any reasonable chance of happening.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

In an ideal world, with the track upgrades planned in NY and MI, the fastest routing would probably be NYP-ALB-BUF-DET-CHI with an agreement with the respective border patrols to let the train run through BUF-DET non-stop. Depending on the exact conditions of the track in Canada................

That stretch of former New York Central Mainline across Canada is going to need a lot of work!

The only feasible route now between Buffalo and Detroit via Ontario would be the current Maple Leaf route to Bayview (Aldershot) then via London and onto Windsor/Detroit (or Sarnia/Port Huron). Amtrak Did propose a route through Ontario around 2000.

 

[jis]

I know about the Warrington era proposals, many of which were characterized by a very tenuous connection to reality.

 

[dn4192]

If Amtrak were to pick one route from NY to Chicago, which route would be the fastest? Would it be the old Broadway Limited route, the NYC LSL route, a combination of the two, or an unused but in tact other route? Maybe via Toledo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh? Just wondering what anyone thought would be good for a "premiere route", not necessarily considering amounts of passengers at intermediate stops or host railroad acceptance.

I will be making that trip this August and have looked at all the possible routes and such. The LSL which takes you up through Buffalo, Cleveland and Toledo into Chicago is an option, then you could take the Penn down to Phily over to Pitts and catch the Capital Limited into chicago. You can also catch a train down from NYC to DC and catch the CL there.

I have decided to take the Penn from Trenton to Pitts with a 4 hour layover so I can walk down and try a pramante sandwich at a Pitts institution while I wait for the CL to chicago.

 

[afigg]

In 1956 Broadway Limited did New York Penn to Chicago Union in the same time as the 20th Century Ltd. westbound, and 15 mins faster eastbound, but with many more stops. Of course, the distance covered was 53 miles or so shorter too, but over much more difficult territory. It was a class act.

 5 00P Dp   0.0 New York, NY (Penna. Sta.) (ET) Ar 8 30A
R 5 14P     10.0 Newark, NJ 	         	 D  8 10A
R 6 21P     85.9 North Philadelphia, PA    	 D  7 03A
R 6 50P    111.4 Paoli, PA 	 		 D  6 35A
R 8 01P    194.6 Harrisburg, PA 	 	 D  5 18A (engine change)
R10 21P    325.4 Altoona, PA 	 		 D  3 03A
12 50A    439.3 Pittsburgh, PA 		   12 36A
...

The depressing part of that schedule is the 7:50 from NYP to Pittsburgh (skipping 30th St station which is a big time saver) and the approx 4:50 from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. If the Pennsylvanian was able to achieve close to those 1956 trip times with something added for the extra stops, it would likely get a lot more business. Perhaps, with investments in the NEC, Keystone East, and some track restoration and upgrades on the Keystone West corridor, we will see an 8+ hour NYP-PGH Pennsylvanian. And maybe a Three Rivers in less than 8 hours from NYP-PGH on the way to CHI.

Then someday to be succeeded by an electrified HSR route from HAR to PGH, eventually running through to CHI. But passing through major cities in Ohio, rather than skipping them.

What would have been the maximum speed of the Broadway Limited in 1956?

 

[Shawn Ryu]

That wouldnt work. If your gonna have a HSR going through PA its gotta go through Philly, Harrrisburg and Pittsburgh. Otherwise wheres the ridership?

 

[George Harris]

What would have been the maximum speed of the Broadway Limited in 1956?

Reasonably certain that it was 80 mph. Certain that it was no faster. At that time that was the speed limit on the "Northeast Corridor" New York to Washington DC electrified main line. Remember, at that time the four track main line went all the way across Pennsylvania, and the Broadway Limited would have had prioroty over everything else, and speeding would have been tolerated if necessary to make schedule, as the top of the roster engineers handling the train in those days knew the route and track conditions like the back of their hand and were trusted to use good judgement in balancing safety, comfort, and speed. So, under today's reality the 1956 Broadway schedule would not be practical even with a 79 mph speed limit.

The Broadway and other through trains to western points did not stop at Philadelphia 30th street, but at North Philadelphia, which also saved time.

 

[jis]

Going via 30th St should not add more than 15-20 mins to the schedule, specially if the engine change is done at 30th St as is the case now. The slowdown mostly is west of Harrisburg anyway.

 

[George Harris]

Much of the old Erie Railroad from Jersey City to Chicago has been abandoned and I not sure if anything has been built on it. It was double tracked alignment all the way and wider than most right of ways because the Erie was originally built as wider than standard gauge. It might be good for a high speed line. In the early 1990s, I flew from Chicago to Fort Wayne on the a commuter plane. For a while we were flying right over the abandoned Erie right of way. It was a great perspective of how wide it was compared to other double tracked alignments

Can't say anything about the alignment west of Buffalo, but can about some points east of Buffalo.

The Erie's orientation was freight not passengers. Therefore the objective was low grades even where it meant more curvature. There are several examples that can be found when look at USGS maps of line relocations that added curvature and some length for the purpose of reducing grades. A couple are in the vicinity of the Portageville Bridge. There has been discussion on replacement of this structure, so I have looked at the USGS maps and the sattelite views of the area. It can be seen that in the past the line was straighter west of the bridge and had a much larger radius curve. Sometime, probably in the 1900 to 1915 time frame as a lot of changes were make in railroad alignments throughout the nation in that time period, a couple of curves were put in to go around a hill that the original line went over. Another similar example can be seen a few miles further west in the same line.

Therefore, even if still available, I suspect that use of the Erie line would not provide much benefit in the way of speed.

 

[afigg]

That wouldnt work. If your gonna have a HSR going through PA its gotta go through Philly, Harrrisburg and Pittsburgh. Otherwise wheres the ridership?

Well, they did build I-80 which does not hit any major cities or towns in PA. It was built as the more direct route from the NYC and northern NJ region to northern Ohio. PA DOT has to maintain the interstate but the state does not reap much economic gain from I-80. Pretty much a money pit for the state, I gather. PA did ask the US DOT to allow the state to turn I-80 into a toll road to raise money for highway and road maintenance, but the state was turned down. Which was a major setback to the state transportation budget plans.

But you are right, if we were to get serious about a HSR line between NYC and CHI, it would either go through PHL-PGH or upper state NY to Cleveland. If committees and federal agencies were tasked to select the HSR routes, similar to how the interstate routes were chosen, there could be a reprise of the Penn Railroad versus NY Central face-off in a way, leading to some serious hardball politicking between NY and PA. In the end, the compromise would probably be to run HSR over both routes, having the HSR lines meet up in Ohio. The NYP-PHL-HAR line would give PA a leg up on building a HSR line to PGH and CHI.

 

[afigg]

Going via 30th St should not add more than 15-20 mins to the schedule, specially if the engine change is done at 30th St as is the case now. The slowdown mostly is west of Harrisburg anyway.

The Broadway Limited schedule was 3 hours to 3:10 between HAR and NYP.

The more express Keystones, which stop at 30th St of course, take around 3:10 NYP-HAR. We know, from the PA HSIPR applications, that around 15 minutes could be trimmed between HAR and PHL with track, interlocking, and signal upgrades. Some more schedule savings with high level platforms at all the eastern Keystone stations.

If all the planned upgrades to the NEC between NYP and PHL were done - Gateway with 2 new tunnels under the Hudson, Portal Bridge replacement, track, signal and constant tension catenary upgrades - the 125 mph Regional class trains should see trip time reductions; maybe 10 minutes? If North Philadelphia were ever to get redeveloped and become a viable major stop, it would be an interesting exercise to see what the scheduled trip time for an express Keystone or Pennsylvanian (switching to diesel at HAR) could be if it skipped 30th St with the Subway connector. Less than 2:30? Then less than 5 hours HAR-PGH with track improvements. Would be nice to someday have a NYP-PGH train (with more stops) measurably faster than the 1956 Broadway Limited.