North Flyer

[OkieFromPonca]

Whatever happened to the North Flyer proposal? I have not heard anything in a year or so. This was the train that was supposed to run between Kansas City and Fort Worth.

 

[dart330]

Waiting on the state of KS to complete the study of the alternatives (OKC to Newton or OKC to KC). They declined to go ahead with the environmental study for OKC to Newton until they choose an alternative; a stall tactive for sure. I would not be surprised if we see OKC -Tulsa - Springfield - STL before we see OKC to Newton. KS is very anti rail and the DOT of the state thinks they should not pay for it unless it makes a profit.

 

[stntylr]

Funny, I was just doing some research on the Northern Flyer last night. Amtrak finished it's study last year and gave 4 alternatives. Now it's up to Kansas to decided what they want. The problem is the Kansas state government isn't interested in doing anything right now.

Oklahoma on the other hand is looking at expanding it's rail service. The main priority is establishing rail service between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. There are three ideas being looked at. A high speed line, an extension of the Heartland Flyer or a state run service similar to the Trinity Railway Express.

Oklahoma has an advantage in that the state owns track going almost the whole way from Oklahoma City to Tulsa.

 

[bretton88]

Kansas is currently waiting on Oklahoma to finish its state rail plan before moving forward on a Northern Flyer alternative. When that happens late 2011/early 2012, Kansas and Oklahoma will move forward on a joint alternative. Kansas isn't stalling, its just bureaucracy at its finest.

 

[OkieFromPonca]

What about the North Flyer Association in Wichita? I used to receive their newsletters but nothing in months. Have they given up?

 

[dart330]

I think they ran out of money. There is a different group who is pushing the OKC to Tulsa route since KS isn't making any progress on the extension to Newton. They actually just got the governor to sign a bill to let a task force study it. http://www.northflyer.org

 

[NorthFlyer]

The Northern Flyer Alliance changed management a little over a year ago. They have become a purely lobbyist organization and do not seem to be real active. (they are waiting on KDOT rather than pushing the envelope). The original Northern Flyer Alliance became a 501©4 (lobbying organization founded in 2008). They started a 501©3 non-profit in Oklahoma called "Friends of Northern Flyer Alliance" for pure fundraising last year.

They have supporting facebook pages but rarely discuss much beyond encouraging people to join NARP, sharing national stories, and aplauding officer achievements. In my opinion they are taking themselves way too seriously. They need to get back to their roots circa 2006-2008 when we were making real inroads into the process, leading KDOT, ODOT and TxDOT rather than the other way around.

I was with the organization between 2006-2010. We were mildly-confrontational with KDOT. Now it seems there is a timid nature to the organization. As dart330 said, they also seem to be short on funding. This is understandable as they are attempting to support a lawyer and professional lobbyist (again, they are taking this way too seriously.)

KDOT is slated to complete its Service Development Plan (SDP) late this fall. I would expect them to become more active at that point. However; the organization has alienated so many people over the past year that this may be pretty difficult.

We are continuing to work on the initiative as Passenger Rail Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. We have websites at www.NorthFlyer.org, www.PassengerRailTX.org, www.PassengerRailOK.org, and PassengerRailKS.org. We also have a Facebook page called Oklahoma Texas Kansas Passenger Rail. Please join when you get a few minutes. We need your support and will not ask you for donations.

 

[George Harris]

When thinking Oklahoma City to Tulsa, somebody needs to look at the track charts and the old Frisco schedules. This line is curvey and has never been fast. I beleive that it no longer has signals. It would take quite a bit of money just to get it back up to the times of the Frisco Meteor, and unless they can get the time well below that, it will not really carry that many people.

 

[bretton88]

When thinking Oklahoma City to Tulsa, somebody needs to look at the track charts and the old Frisco schedules. This line is curvey and has never been fast. I beleive that it no longer has signals. It would take quite a bit of money just to get it back up to the times of the Frisco Meteor, and unless they can get the time well below that, it will not really carry that many people.

Oklahoma isn't thinking of regular trains on this route anymore. They want to completely rebuild the ROW, which they own, to do 150mph electric bullet trains. Its an ambitious project for Oklahoma, but they own the ROW so its actually fairly cheap for true HSR. They're working on the cost estimates now. I know when stimulus money was available they just tossed this project out for grabs, with a cost that I'm not sure how accurate it was. It was probably the biggest surprise application, because it came so suddenly. Now ODOT is doing actual engineering on the route to get a firm grasp of the need and costs.

 

[NorthFlyer]

Measuring the Benefits of Intercity Passenger Rail: A Study of the Heartland Flyer corridor

When thinking Oklahoma City to Tulsa, somebody needs to look at the track charts and the old Frisco schedules. This line is curvey and has never been fast. I beleive that it no longer has signals. It would take quite a bit of money just to get it back up to the times of the Frisco Meteor, and unless they can get the time well below that, it will not really carry that many people.

Oklahoma isn't thinking of regular trains on this route anymore. They want to completely rebuild the ROW, which they own, to do 150mph electric bullet trains. Its an ambitious project for Oklahoma, but they own the ROW so its actually fairly cheap for true HSR. They're working on the cost estimates now. I know when stimulus money was available they just tossed this project out for grabs, with a cost that I'm not sure how accurate it was. It was probably the biggest surprise application, because it came so suddenly. Now ODOT is doing actual engineering on the route to get a firm grasp of the need and costs.

Not so fast,

In 1948, the Frisco's Meteor ran the route Tulsa - OKC in 2 hours and 13 minutes. That is an average speed of 53 mph. The Heartland Flyer today averages just 48 mph.

Frisco Train 9 1948

Tulsa Leave 7:32 am

OKC Arrive 9:45 am

(Note: the train stopped in Sapulpa and Bristow but not Chandler)

2 hours and 13 minutes

117.2 miles

Average speed 53 mph

Heartland Flyer 2011

OKC Leave 8:25 am

Ft. Worth Arrive 12:39 pm

4 hours and 14 minutes

206 miles

Average speed 48 mph

Signals can be reinstalled. That was what was a limiting factor before federal funding became available in 2009. Further, OK-2011 House Bill 1686, The Eastern Flyer Passenger Rail Development Task Force, signed by Governor Fallin on April 21, proposes a public-private partnership (PPP). This PPP will seek non-federal opportunities (such as funding from tribal casinos, sports franchises, event centers, communities etc.... Incremental investment is key. This is something ODOT will have to deal with because the Act requires them to look at conventional 79 mph to 110 mph operations.

At the request of ODOT, Carter-Burgess engineering provided a study of the route in 2001 and again in 2002. It showed a $112 million cost to restore the route to conventional speeds. This can be done in an incremental fashion, not all-or-nothing like ODOT's 2009 grant proposal.

ODOT's All-or-Nothing 2009 federal High Speed Intercity Passenger Rail (HSIPR) application called for $2 billion using new right of way along the north side of the Turner Turnpike. ODOT's mantra? "Ask for something you know you will not get and you do not have to do anything." Further, the waste-based culture at any state DOT looks only at big projects. How many lobbyists could a $112 million investment support versus a $2 billion investment. The same is true for rail as it is for roads.

For those of you who might scoff at the idea of a PPP consider the results of the Texas Transportation Insitute Study Measuring the Benefits of Intercity Passenger Rail: A Study of the Heartland Flyer corridor released in March 2010. It shows for every dollar of state investment $3.5 were attributed in en-route community spending. This study shows that passenger rail is profitable beyond the farebox. This can be used as justification for private investment.

For more information go to our website at www.PassengerRailOK.org

 

[bretton88]

Measuring the Benefits of Intercity Passenger Rail: A Study of the Heartland Flyer corridor

When thinking Oklahoma City to Tulsa, somebody needs to look at the track charts and the old Frisco schedules. This line is curvey and has never been fast. I beleive that it no longer has signals. It would take quite a bit of money just to get it back up to the times of the Frisco Meteor, and unless they can get the time well below that, it will not really carry that many people.

Oklahoma isn't thinking of regular trains on this route anymore. They want to completely rebuild the ROW, which they own, to do 150mph electric bullet trains. Its an ambitious project for Oklahoma, but they own the ROW so its actually fairly cheap for true HSR. They're working on the cost estimates now. I know when stimulus money was available they just tossed this project out for grabs, with a cost that I'm not sure how accurate it was. It was probably the biggest surprise application, because it came so suddenly. Now ODOT is doing actual engineering on the route to get a firm grasp of the need and costs.

Not so fast,

In 1948, the Frisco's Meteor ran the route Tulsa - OKC in 2 hours and 13 minutes. That is an average speed of 53 mph. The Heartland Flyer today averages just 48 mph.

Frisco Train 9 1948

Tulsa Leave 7:32 am

OKC Arrive 9:45 am

(Note: the train stopped in Sapulpa and Bristow but not Chandler)

2 hours and 13 minutes

117.2 miles

Average speed 53 mph

Heartland Flyer 2011

OKC Leave 8:25 am

Ft. Worth Arrive 12:39 pm

4 hours and 14 minutes

206 miles

Average speed 48 mph

Signals can be reinstalled. That was what was a limiting factor before federal funding became available in 2009. Further, OK-2011 House Bill 1686, The Eastern Flyer Passenger Rail Development Task Force, signed by Governor Fallin on April 21, proposes a public-private partnership (PPP). This PPP will seek non-federal opportunities (such as funding from tribal casinos, sports franchises, event centers, communities etc.... Incremental investment is key. This is something ODOT will have to deal with because the Act requires them to look at conventional 79 mph to 110 mph operations.

At the request of ODOT, Carter-Burgess engineering provided a study of the route in 2001 and again in 2002. It showed a $112 million cost to restore the route to conventional speeds. This can be done in an incremental fashion, not all-or-nothing like ODOT's 2009 grant proposal.

ODOT's All-or-Nothing 2009 federal High Speed Intercity Passenger Rail (HSIPR) application called for $2 billion using new right of way along the north side of the Turner Turnpike. ODOT's mantra? "Ask for something you know you will not get and you do not have to do anything." Further, the waste-based culture at any state DOT looks only at big projects. How many lobbyists could a $112 million investment support versus a $2 billion investment. The same is true for rail as it is for roads.

For those of you who might scoff at the idea of a PPP consider the results of the Texas Transportation Insitute Study Measuring the Benefits of Intercity Passenger Rail: A Study of the Heartland Flyer corridor released in March 2010. It shows for every dollar of state investment $3.5 were attributed in en-route community spending. This study shows that passenger rail is profitable beyond the farebox. This can be used as justification for private investment.

For more information go to our website at www.PassengerRailOK.org

2 Billion is a bargain for true HSR. I think ODOT should "make no small plans" and try to get the funding for a true HSR route along the turnpike, as they previously proposed. Funding for conventional trains is going to get scarce, as congress is finally going to fix the the definition of HSR in the country to mean 125mph or greater.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Few people in Oklahoma and Kansas are expecting anything to be rolling north of OKC in the foreseeable future as the past several years have been nothing but money wasted on studies. Enough studies have been done and pockets lined as a result of them. It's time to get off the pot and get some trains rolling. And of course Oklahoma managed to miss the deadline for getting their app in for Federal High Speed funding and I'm sure there are now studies being done to why that happened.

 

[NorthFlyer]

$2 billion for Oklahoma when the entire federal program the year ODOT applied was $8 billion? There was no doubt that the funding would be awarded to California, Florida, and Illinois, plus other more populace regions of the nation. Considering the $500 billion to $1 trillion requirement for High Speed Rail, Oklahoma was shooting in the dark.

It would have been interesting here in Oklahoma to watch ODOT try to deal with the funding if it had been awarded. The annual operational cost was considered $22 million. The Obama administration should have awarded it to the state just out of spite for the backward politics here.

As for studies, the Amtrak study was requested in February 2008, prior to the passage of the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008 (passed in October that year) and prior to the passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA). I am not defending the Kansas Department of Transportation (KDOT) but the federal requirements to produce a federally approved State Rail Plan (in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas), a Service Development Plan (SDP), and corridor/ service National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) studies did not exist.

KDOT is taking advantage of the string of federal requirements. They are working at a snails pace. They are asking-for-permission at every step to delay the process because they do not want to do it. There is no pushback from the advocacy community. They claim to have confidence that KDOT is ‘doing everything it can.’

If you are not pushing the envelope in this arena you are in the way.

 

[Lamar]

The Northern Flyer Alliance changed management a little over a year ago. They have become a purely lobbyist organization and do not seem to be real active. (they are waiting on KDOT rather than pushing the envelope). The original Northern Flyer Alliance became a 501©4 (lobbying organization founded in 2008). They started a 501©3 non-profit in Oklahoma called "Friends of Northern Flyer Alliance" for pure fundraising last year.

They have supporting facebook pages but rarely discuss much beyond encouraging people to join NARP, sharing national stories, and aplauding officer achievements. In my opinion they are taking themselves way too seriously. They need to get back to their roots circa 2006-2008 when we were making real inroads into the process, leading KDOT, ODOT and TxDOT rather than the other way around.

I was with the organization between 2006-2010. We were mildly-confrontational with KDOT. Now it seems there is a timid nature to the organization. As dart330 said, they also seem to be short on funding. This is understandable as they are attempting to support a lawyer and professional lobbyist (again, they are taking this way too seriously.)

KDOT is slated to complete its Service Development Plan (SDP) late this fall. I would expect them to become more active at that point. However; the organization has alienated so many people over the past year that this may be pretty difficult.

We are continuing to work on the initiative as Passenger Rail Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. We have websites at www.NorthFlyer.org, www.PassengerRailTX.org, www.PassengerRailOK.org, and PassengerRailKS.org. We also have a Facebook page called Oklahoma Texas Kansas Passenger Rail. Please join when you get a few minutes. We need your support and will not ask you for donations.

I just joined this group. It's terrific!

 

[GlobalistPotato]

When thinking Oklahoma City to Tulsa, somebody needs to look at the track charts and the old Frisco schedules. This line is curvey and has never been fast. I beleive that it no longer has signals. It would take quite a bit of money just to get it back up to the times of the Frisco Meteor, and unless they can get the time well below that, it will not really carry that many people.

Oklahoma isn't thinking of regular trains on this route anymore. They want to completely rebuild the ROW, which they own, to do 150mph electric bullet trains. Its an ambitious project for Oklahoma, but they own the ROW so its actually fairly cheap for true HSR. They're working on the cost estimates now. I know when stimulus money was available they just tossed this project out for grabs, with a cost that I'm not sure how accurate it was. It was probably the biggest surprise application, because it came so suddenly. Now ODOT is doing actual engineering on the route to get a firm grasp of the need and costs.

Wouldn't the ROW come from running trains between OKC and Tulsa in the ROW of the Will Rogers Turnpike? That alignment could handle up to 150 mph trains, and the width of the ROW is about 300 ft - more than enough for both the highway and a railroad.

 

[NorthFlyer]

The state of Oklahoma purchased the Burlington Northern Santa Fe route between Oklahoma City and a mile west of Sapulpa in 1997 (about 100 miles). The final 18 miles to Tulsa Union Depot are still owned by the BNSF. This line roughly follows I-44 (The Turner Turnpike.) The railroad was probably built around 1880 so yes, there are substantial curves in the route. However; incrementally straightening these curves will be less expensive at $112 million than spending $2 billion on new right-of-way along the north side of the Turner Turnpike.

I will argue that speed is not as important initially as actually re-introducing travelers along the I-44 corridor. Incremental upgrades will eventually cut the conventional speed timing to two hours, competitive with driving. The intermediate stops will be preserved at a time when true High Speed can be realistically funded. Remember, this is Oklahoma not California. The prospects that Oklahoma will get $2 billion out of a federal program are slim to none for the foreseeable future.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

One of the most boring drives in this country is the Turner Turnpike (44) between OKC and TUL. While it is only about 89 miles gate to gate, it seems to take forever and then some. I often take old 66 just to break the monotony, and while that takes about 30 minutes longer, is much more enjoyable. Plus I get to eat at The Rock Cafe in Stroud and pick up exotic soda at Pops in Arcadia

I am not the only one who feels this way and many will enjoy the option of a "slower" train just to avoid that drive. Of course the big drawback is lack of decent public transport in both cities, but that is another issue.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

One of the most boring drives in this country is the Turner Turnpike (44) between OKC and TUL. While it is only about 89 miles gate to gate, it seems to take forever and then some. I often take old 66 just to break the monotony, and while that takes about 30 minutes longer, is much more enjoyable. Plus I get to eat at The Rock Cafe in Stroud and pick up exotic soda at Pops in Arcadia

I am not the only one who feels this way and many will enjoy the option of a "slower" train just to avoid that drive. Of course the big drawback is lack of decent public transport in both cities, but that is another issue.

Another drawback to intercity rail in Oklahoma is that the gas prices are the lowest in the nation. Back in 2008 when there was $5 dollar gas in California and the Northeast, gas was around $3.69 in OK.

You say the drive on the Turner Turnpike is boring, but is it fast or slow? How much traffic is on the highway?

 

[NorthFlyer]

Truck traffic basically sets the speed. There are enough hills, even on the existing alignment, to slow trucks to 60 mph uphill. Then they increase their speed to 80 mph downhill. It is an infuriating drive for a motorist as you have to weave in and out of the trucks and ya'ocals who forget the speed limit is 75 mph. Of course the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is always performing construction so the effective speed limit is probably 65 mph.

 

[George Harris]

Few people in Oklahoma and Kansas are expecting anything to be rolling north of OKC in the foreseeable future as the past several years have been nothing but money wasted on studies. Enough studies have been done and pockets lined as a result of them. It's time to get off the pot and get some trains rolling.

Studies are a politicians way of

1. Looking like you are doing something when you really are not, and

2. Payback of favors to your supporters

This second is why studies are sometimes done by outfits that have no competence in the subject they are studying.

In 1948, the Frisco's Meteor ran the route Tulsa - OKC in 2 hours and 13 minutes. That is an average speed of 53 mph. The Heartland Flyer today averages just 48 mph.

Noted: I was working from memory of a 1962 schedule.

However, if the distance is only 89 miles, any schedule of over 2 hours is unlikely to attract much ridership.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Truck traffic basically sets the speed. There are enough hills, even on the existing alignment, to slow trucks to 60 mph uphill. Then they increase their speed to 80 mph downhill. It is an infuriating drive for a motorist as you have to weave in and out of the trucks and ya'ocals who forget the speed limit is 75 mph. Of course the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority is always performing construction so the effective speed limit is probably 65 mph.

Normally it takes about 75-85 minutes to go gate to gate depending on traffic, but the straight as an arrow road and horrendously monotonous scenery make it seem like hours. At least with a train, that time can be spent relaxing, getting work done or anything else other than working the wheel and fighting sleep. And Oklahoma is one of the few places where it seems most people tend to drive 10-15 MPH BELOW the limit and often in the left lane.

 

[NorthFlyer]

"However, if the distance is only 89 miles, any schedule of over 2 hours is unlikely to attract much ridership."

The full distance is 118 miles, not 89 miles. Further, the actual implementation might be very different than what we suppose. The proposed operation might not even wind up being Amtrak. Hopefully, two frequencies will be proposed by the task force, one that connects with the Heartland Flyer (that would make it a 324 mile route) and a daylight train. One of the biggest hurdles is that the Heartland Flyer leaves Oklahoma City at 8:25 am and arrives back in the evening at 9:39 pm. This would necessitate some dark-30 arrivals/ departures in Tulsa and points in-between.