non-fiscal reasons why Amtrak has its share of enemies

[PRae_Train]

There are perhaps many of us (myself included) who cannot fly or drive for significant distances for physical reasons. I can get up and move around the train to prevent or alleviate bouts of sciatica, but cannot drive for more than an hour at a time.

 

[cirdan]

* Lack of wi-fi. This is a huge issue to the younger generation, who is accustomed to being connected. Even Greyhound has wi-fi on most of its buses nowadays, but it's virtually non-existent on LD trains. Coast Starlight is sort-of an exception, but wi-fi is only available in the Parlour Car through nothing more than a smartphone, so it's pretty much non-existent outside of populated areas.

.

I wouldn't be so sure of this. My step son, who is 24 has just returned from a three month road trip with his GF in a camper van that he converted himself.

He used to be constantly online. He couldn't go more than 15 minutes without checking something on his smartphone or computer.

But during all of this trip he had no online access and he came back saying it was a great feeling and it gave him so much more time to look at and think about things.

 

[cirdan]

Having rent-a-car services at stations served by one train in each direction (or less) per day seems hardly profitable or possible. On busy corridor routes, however, it should be a given.

Well, you don't need a full office staffed around the clock but just a rental car agency that knows about the location and is prepared to drop off a car there when requested. In days past you sometimes saw those free telephones you could use to call an agent in another location so they could come over to help you.

 

[PRae_Train]

Still, even where there are car rental counters, it can be challenging.

At Union Station LAX the company I rented from had only one employee and low inventory of cars available. I had to wait an hour for the attendant to return because he had to leave the station for some strange reason (someone had left keys in a car that was several miles away. The cars can be dirty and the attendant could not answer questions about the controls.

The next year I opted to take another train to my final destination and rent locally.

 

[Silver Star rider]

I don't take amtrak as the vacation. It is a part of it, and a part I enjoy, but my vacations are more about where I'm going.

If I am not going across the country, my yearly vacation is usually in the Poconos.

What Amtrak train do you take from your home in NJ to your vacation in the Pocono's?

Just kiddin'....I know you meant when you go x-country...

I personally hire a train that goes to Stroudsburg Station. Takes a little bit of convincing the engineer to take a certain track.....

Bruce-SSR

Better take a look at a current railroad map....the Lackawanna Cutoff is long gone....to go from NJ to the Pocono's woould take a long, convoluted route...

The right of way is still there. I developed a way of placing temporary tracks for the train to ride on. If I explained more... would have to make you disappear

Bruce-SSR

 

[Silver Star rider]

Having rent-a-car services at stations served by one train in each direction (or less) per day seems hardly profitable or possible. On busy corridor routes, however, it should be a given.

Well, you don't need a full office staffed around the clock but just a rental car agency that knows about the location and is prepared to drop off a car there when requested. In days past you sometimes saw those free telephones you could use to call an agent in another location so they could come over to help you.

The Hertz desk at ORL had a sign saying when the booth isn't manned, take a taxi to the airport and they will pay you back the taxi fare. Of course before anyone does this, double check with Hertz if still true.

Bruce-SSR

 

[gmushial]

Having rent-a-car services at stations served by one train in each direction (or less) per day seems hardly profitable or possible. On busy corridor routes, however, it should be a given.

Well, you don't need a full office staffed around the clock but just a rental car agency that knows about the location and is prepared to drop off a car there when requested. In days past you sometimes saw those free telephones you could use to call an agent in another location so they could come over to help you.

Still, even where there are car rental counters, it can be challenging.

At Union Station LAX the company I rented from had only one employee and low inventory of cars available. I had to wait an hour for the attendant to return because he had to leave the station for some strange reason (someone had left keys in a car that was several miles away. The cars can be dirty and the attendant could not answer questions about the controls.

The next year I opted to take another train to my final destination and rent locally.

This is why I posted above: take a taxi to the airport... where they have sufficient flow to justify having an employee and an inventory. Again, my suggestion is to go to expedia and try various venues and see what's available and for what price... but from experience: if the airport has at least 30 flights a day, then it's a possible, if it has a hundred or more, then it's a likely.... some of the big airports one can still get a car for $12/day unlimited miles... the other point is: return the car where you got it (otherwise the price potentially goes skyhigh, eg, OMA, $23/day unlimited miles; return that same car to Manhattan KS, 200 miles away, and it becomes $250/day).

The other important point: make the reservation online and ahead of time - walking up to the desk at the airport: they got you and you'll pay for it, again, eg, OMA at the airport Enterprise counter: $44/day.

 

[NE933]

I developed a way of placing temporary tracks for the train to ride on. If I explained more... would have to make you disappear
Bruce-SSR

We must compare notes, then...

 

[Silver Star rider]

I developed a way of placing temporary tracks for the train to ride on. If I explained more... would have to make you disappear
Bruce-SSR

We must compare notes, then...

Watching the new loop de loop coaster... I had a vision... instead of the train moving on the track.. what happens if the track moves instead?? Now the steering mechanism... cant talk about that till the patent is approved

Bruce-SSR

 

[domefoamer]

Just make the track a giant rolling loop, like a ferris wheel gone loose. That way, one section of track goes wherever the train goes!

 

[railiner]

I developed a way of placing temporary tracks for the train to ride on. If I explained more... would have to make you disappear
Bruce-SSR

We must compare notes, then...

Do you guys "hear voices in your heads"?

No more explanation is necessary.....

 

[NW cannonball]

I developed a way of placing temporary tracks for the train to ride on. If I explained more... would have to make you disappear

Bruce-SSR

We must compare notes, then...

So you read Sir Pratchett's last novel.

 

[nemaihne]

I'm surprised inconvenience hasn't come up more often as a reason people don't take the train.

Even with airline cutbacks, there are usually several options on a given day to get from your origination to your destination. Compare this with many of the routes which either have no local train service or very inconvenient stops. For instance, I'm going to stop off and visit some family in Cincinnati, Ohio on an east west trip. Well, three times a week the Cardinal arrives at 1:15AM in an area of the city that might politely be called sketchy. Cincinnati is also a rather sleepy town- it's not known for its late night activity. There's a chance I could get a cab to take me to the airport or hire a car- just to get to a car rental place, but it's expensive because it's fairly far from one to the other. Meanwhile, a quick type into Expedia (which excludes many commuter airlines) and I counted 88 options for the same date of departure. I have to be willing not only to take longer to get to my destination, but to be willing to arrive in the middle of the night and to go out of my way finding transportation once I'm off the train. For a lot of people, this would be a bridge too far after an already long journey.

The level of service makes all the difference in the world, too. Not only is it inconsistent but the difference between levels is ridiculous. The good crews are amazing. But then you wind up with crews bad enough to make you wonder why you are still bothering with Amtrak at all. There's nothing worse than finally convincing friends to come with you on a trip only to run into one of the bad crews. Good luck ever getting them on the train again.

 

[VentureForth]

I tell people we live in a gorgeous country. Something you cant appreciate from watching the white line or from 30,000 feet.

I truly appreciate that sentiment, but if you ever go spend 27 hours on the Silver Meteor, you'll find that probably half of the scenery is trees. Even the upper bunk of the Viewliners (which I imagine the windows are at around 12' max over the rails) can't see over the tree tops.

I would imagine that MOST of the scenery on Amtrak is wood, industrial zones, or cityscape. You really have to be on a good long distance train to get "gorgeous" scenery.

The other day, I flew to Mississippi. From 36,000', I got to see Alabama as close as I want to!

 

[Silver Star rider]

I developed a way of placing temporary tracks for the train to ride on. If I explained more... would have to make you disappear
Bruce-SSR

We must compare notes, then...

Do you guys "hear voices in your heads"?

No more explanation is necessary.....

They laughed at Leonardo Di Vinci when he proposed man can fly. They laughed at the Wright Brothers till they conquered flight. When Gene Roddenberry proposed faster then light, they laughed till Zezram Conchron built and proved Warp drive is possible

Bruce-SSR

 

[Silver Star rider]

I tell people we live in a gorgeous country. Something you cant appreciate from watching the white line or from 30,000 feet.

I truly appreciate that sentiment, but if you ever go spend 27 hours on the Silver Meteor, you'll find that probably half of the scenery is trees. Even the upper bunk of the Viewliners (which I imagine the windows are at around 12' max over the rails) can't see over the tree tops.

I would imagine that MOST of the scenery on Amtrak is wood, industrial zones, or cityscape. You really have to be on a good long distance train to get "gorgeous" scenery.

The other day, I flew to Mississippi. From 36,000', I got to see Alabama as close as I want to!

We cross untouched by man, lakes, rivers, etc. Even to see old trees growing right by the banks of a lake, just like the first visitors saw when they landed is still beauty to be seen and appreciated.

Even passing through industrial siding, yards, etc to see parked equipment is exciting for some. Passing the juice train had me bouncing against the walls, once I realized what I was seeing

Bruce-SSR

 

[gwschenk]

Having rent-a-car services at stations served by one train in each direction (or less) per day seems hardly profitable or possible.

On the contrary, it's both possible and profitable, at least in the big cities. The key reason is that these major big city stations are in downtowns -- and there are *already* successful downtown rental car locations in most of these cities, often quite close. The major clientele would be expected to be locals.

The *only* problems for Amtrak passengers is that these places are often closed on weekends, or Sundays, or evenings, or whatever; or they are just a bit too far away from the Amtrak station without shuttle service. Efforts should be made to entice car rental places which are already planning to locate downtown to (a) colocate with the train station, and (b) make it possible for people coming in by train to pick up and return cars (either by being open during those hours or by dropping off keys with an Amtrak agent).

Hertz has a location at the Crown Plaza across from Kansas City Union Station that's very convenient. Last year in St. Louis we took the light rail from Amtrak to the airport to get a car. Again, very convenient.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Transit is highly inconvenient. NJ Transit operates itself as if it were MetroWest. All working connections (which in NJTransit world means under 30 minutes) favor those heading with a final destination of New York. Almost all, if not all, non New York oriented connections do not work- and impressively almost all of them do not work with the precision of a Rolex.

For instance, if I were to take the train to my parents house, outside of peak, I would have to take the RiverLINE to Trenton and a 20 minute wait to connect to the Corridor. Then I have to take the NEC to Rahway, and wait 55 minutes (a perfect misconnect) for a North Jersey Coast Line train to Red Bank where I have to wait 52 minutes (nearly perfect misconnect) for a Red Bank-Asbury Park Monmouth County Local and take that 30 minutes or so to an intersection and walk the remaining mile.

All of these vehicles are operated by NJ Transit, yet need to purchase three separate fares- light rail, commuter rail, and bus. The perfect run time would be about two hours and fifteen minutes plus a 15 minute walk (all good connections, no lateness) but it takes four hours- and can be driven in 40 minutes. The drive would cost me $20 for me and my wife- the train costs $65.

There's no mystery why people don't use local public transit unless they need it.

 

[Bob Dylan]

You said it yourself Lion, it's Jersey!

What has really changed under the Christie Administration??

Maybe you should consider following Dick and jis lead and move to Florida!LOL

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Too damned hot. I'll consider Toronto. Or Tel Aviv.

 

[jis]

Too many Hamas rockets around Tel Aviv these days for comfort. Other than that I love the place.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

 

[tomfuller]

Having rent-a-car services at stations served by one train in each direction (or less) per day seems hardly profitable or possible.

On the contrary, it's both possible and profitable, at least in the big cities. The key reason is that these major big city stations are in downtowns -- and there are *already* successful downtown rental car locations in most of these cities, often quite close. The major clientele would be expected to be locals.

The *only* problems for Amtrak passengers is that these places are often closed on weekends, or Sundays, or evenings, or whatever; or they are just a bit too far away from the Amtrak station without shuttle service. Efforts should be made to entice car rental places which are already planning to locate downtown to (a) colocate with the train station, and (b) make it possible for people coming in by train to pick up and return cars (either by being open during those hours or by dropping off keys with an Amtrak agent).

Hertz has a location at the Crown Plaza across from Kansas City Union Station that's very convenient. Last year in St. Louis we took the light rail from Amtrak to the airport to get a car. Again, very convenient.

I rented a car at Cut Bank MT from the local GM dealer. It was paid in advance. It was waiting for me in the station lot after 6PM. The key was in the gas cap flap and the rental agreement was on the sun visor for me to sign. When we left it at the station, we left the key inside the car. Never met the rental agent. The alternative was East Glacier after 8PM.

 

[Karl1459]

To me, passenger rail advantages are in two distinct areas.

1. Corridor travel. Short enough distance to be competive with the air "overhead time" nerodian mentioned, and in a market with enough population density where road congestion becomes a problem***. There also needs to be significant local connectivity options, whether public transit (bus/subway), rental car or bicycle access, or the destination needs to be in walking distance. Auto travel can be a point A to point B design. Rail (and air or bus) is often point A to D, with rail being B to C. Without a effective means of A-rail or rail-D the train becomes a non-option.

2. Long Distance. Conventional rail will likely never be time competive with air or even driving (in the cont. US, which has roads). Rail DOES have a potential advantage of being lower stress than other modes, so a person may be able to be more effective at their destination than by arriving by other means. Amtrak does have a focus of comfort on LD trains (long seat pitch, lounge cars, meals, sleeper options) which it needs to maintain.

What Amtrak needs to improve:

a. OTP issues. For corridor travel this is critical as time is a prime motivator for choice. For long distance it is only the perception of "OTP" is the issue, not OTP itself as time is not the critical issue. Communication and education become tools to relieve stress caused by the train being "late".

b. Customer service. Dirty cars and surly staff CAN NOT HAPPEN. Amtrak IS improving. The "state of the toilet" is much better now than 10 years ago. I can see some of the leadership that J. Boardman is providing to create an expectation of the crews to provide quality service, though there is a lot of institutional inertia to overcome. Regardless of what management says, it is the culture of the employees actually providing the service that will determine the level of service, management must lead for positive change as dictating is useless.

c. Connectivity. This is having rental cars available... partners that will drop off a car at a station, perhaps a true partner in that a conductor or LSA acts as the rental agent on the train, or the agent at a station. Small rental companies do exist... you can rent a car in Essex MT. Transit partners, Amtrak needs to be agressive in encouraging local transit agencies to serve the train station at train hours. The new baggage cars which allow bicycles will increase connectivity for those who can use bikes, whether it be 1 or 5 miles or even more. Bike rentals at stations would be a huge benefit, and could be done as concession/partnership.

d. Wi-Fi. With reasonable cell service and reasonable wi-fi service train time can be productive time for business types. Even on LD.

*** I have seen referenced several studies which suggest that automobile traffic and congestion increase somewhat exponentially with population density leading to the conclusion that enough roads cannot be built to handle traffic and other alternatives need to be found.

 

[RailFanLNK]

Maybe I should have been a lawyer or union contract negotiator. My wife and I have probably turned 50 or more folks on to Amtrak travel from Lincoln NE where the train picks you up (if on time) EB at 3:20am and drops you off at 12:08am WB. So we don't have good arr/departure times at all. I've gotten good at selling different "services" to different "clientele". If I know someone who is inquiring about Amtrak is impatient, I always sell them on Glenwood Springs CO. It's a simple trip from LNK to GSC, there's no connecting trains and the scenery is glorious from DEN to GSC so if they are running late, they really don't care. It's 12 hours or so, so if they don't like it, they're not on a train for two whole days.

If someone I know is nervous about big cities I also shoo them toward going to Glenwood Springs. If they are a big sports fan with limited funds I tell them, "board the Zephyr in Lincoln at midnight and take in a Colorado Rockies baseball game." If it is an afternoon game you can literally take the train to the stadium, watch the game and then board the EB back home early in the evening and only be gone one day and never drive and party like a fool!

"Clientele" that I know that loves big cities I tend to sell them Chicago and my knowledge of the city itself. I've ran three church trips to Chicago on Amtrak and have visited the city numerous times. Also, you don't need a roomette from LNK to CHI. Coach is doable so you can have a family of four drooling to go but when the roomettes is figured in, they say, "we will drive it for that cost" so I bring up the $50-$100 a day it costs to park in the city of Chicago. That opens their eyes and then all of a sudden the train doesn't sound so bad.

The real adventurers I sell either the CZ to EMY or the CZ to CHI then take a connecting train to the east coast. I also invite all the "rookies" to my home and have an evening of eating together and then roll through a lot of stuff they would never know like, "don't plan anything for the day of arrival in case you are late" to "always wait to be seated in the dining car" etc.

My wife and I just turned on a family of four to Amtrak and they LOVED it! Went from LNK (train was 20 minutes late) to Chicago (arr 1 hour late) and they can't quit talking about it. They want to plan another trip now for next year so I'm going to pull out the "Glenwood Springs is a really cool place to go!" I want them to get one more trip under their belt before they think of catching a connecting train in CHI and then missing it and having roomettes on one train and then going coach because they didn't make their connecting train. They are foaming at the mouth about it as I type.

When folks ask, "why do you take the train?" I'm truthful. I drive 50 hours a week for the largest parcel delivery company in the world so I'm behind a steering wheel all the time. Flying? My brother was killed in a plane crash in 1979...flying to me just sucks! When someone bitches that they don't want to get up at 2:45am to go to the train station and then tell me they are catching a 6am flight out of Omaha...I just laugh and ask, "what time do you have to get up, drive to OMA and then get there 90 minutes early?" It ends up being the same damn time they would be getting up to catch the train. The train station from my house takes 10 minutes, the airport in LNK is 20 minutes but the flights are expensive as you know what! The Omaha airport is one hour away and you pay for parking. So I point out all these things.

My hardest sell is to impatient people that just can't fathom sitting on a train for 1 or 2 days and gasp...........not doing anything but sleeping, reading or eating. Just unfathomable. They are the dorks...not us!