Needles, CA - Las Vegas, NV Thruway Change

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jccollins

jccollins

Conductor
Joined
Nov 2, 2002
Messages
1,266
According to today's NARP Hotline and Amtrak's Reservations Website, Amtrak Thruway service from Needles, California to Las Vegas, Nevada via Laughlin, Nevada will end on April 25th and be replaced with Thruway service from Kingman, Arizona to Las Vegas, Nevada via Laughlin. It is hard to imagine why this change would occur unless the contractor operating the thruway van service from Needles is canceling their contract... Does anyone know? Anthony? It's in your neck of the woods.

While the thruway service will still depart from the Las Vegas Airport at the same time (9:45pm, daily) and arrive into Kingman, AZ to meet the train at about 1:30am (that's what it should be, the Amtrak reservations website currently shows 12:20am but that would only leave 5 minutes for the Laughlin to Kingman portion of the trip, not possible considering its 33 miles), it would break the connection TO westbound train 3 to Los Angeles. Returning from Kingman to Las Vegas, the thruway service would leave Kingman at 11:55pm, effectively breaking the connection FROM train 4.

Distancewise the two stations are not very far apart and it is only about 12 miles further from Laughlin to Kingman than it is to Needles, but it still doesn't make sense why they are doing this for the following reasons:

1. The connection at Needles allowed passengers from both the east and west to connect to the thruway to Laughlin and Las Vegas since the trains arrived very close to each other (wb 12:49am and eb 1:22am) vs. Kingman where the trains arrive (wb 11:46pm and eb 2:03am).

2. The new schedule would require TWO thruway vans since the one from Vegas would not arrive at the Kingman station until after the one to Vegas already left.

Any thoughts? <_<
 
Hmm... that's certainly interesting. I hadn't heard about it. Do we know who the motorcoach operator will be for this new Kingman - Las Vegas route? The current operator of Needles - Las Vegas is "Commuter Carriers" which is actually based about 45 minutes from Needles in Arizona.
 
If the operator is based in AZ (maybe closer to Kingman...? ;) ) maybe it was their call to switch stations and that is why they are doing it. One thing I noted is the thruway numbers 5003 and 5004 will remain the same so I wouldn't think they would be transfering to a new carrier but you never know. I guess calling the company that runs the thruway shuttles and asking them might shed light on the real reason. Very strange, though, since it will cut off the possibility of hauling passengers originating from the west of Kingman (even though I would bet hat was a very, very small percentage of their passengers, but still it is nice to have that option.
 
Well, the road system around the borders of AZ/CA/NV is such that often you must pass through CA to get to other parts of AZ from AZ. Needles is actually 15 minutes closer by car than Kingman from Commuter Carriers, strangely. (though to get to Kingman, you need not go through or past Needles -- you turn right instead of left)
 
Anthony said:
Well, the road system around the borders of AZ/CA/NV is such that often you must pass through CA to get to other parts of AZ from AZ. Needles is actually 15 minutes closer by car than Kingman from Commuter Carriers, strangely. (though to get to Kingman, you need not go through or past Needles -- you turn right instead of left)
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Right, that actually does make sense to me since I have spent some time in the area around Laughlin/Needles. I wasn't sure where Commuter Carriers actually was based out of in AZ (thought it might be Kingman) but now that you say Needles is actually a little closer to their office than Kingman this even gets stranger.

The only "benefit" of the new schedule is that it will get passengers into Las Vegas at 3:40am instead of 4:15am (if that is really a benefit). Who wants to arrive anywhere at 3:40am? Plus, even though the arrival is earlier it means less time on the train and a longer ride on the thruway bus. This just doesn't make any sense.

:rolleyes:
 
gswager said:
Needles no longer has indoor waiting room and Kingman has newly renovated station. I think it's a factor to move to Kingman station for comfort and security of gambling passengers.
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Are you sure about that? The Amtrak website does show the Kingman station being open from 1:30am-6:30am daily (although it is not always accurate) but the photos from the website you linked to clearly show that the depot is still being renovated. What king of building/establishment is 106 N Fourth Street? Is this a new exclusive Amtrak waiting room or another business with a few benches for Amtrak passengers? Needles is clearly unstaffed and without an indoor waiting room, but it looks like some recent renovations were done in the station area. Anthony, can you clear this issue up for us?

:huh:
 
AlanB said:
I for one will be on pins and Needles until he does. :lol: :D :p
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:lol:

It looks like I am not the only one with this question, though. It has sparked a discussion over at trainorders under the "New Amtrak Timetable" thread. It will be interesting to see what develops.
 
Needles' indoor waiting room was located across the street in a strip mall, and it was operated by the motorcoach provider. Their lease ran out or something and that corner waiting room is now something else. The Needles platform for boarding the train is the BNSF freight platform and there is no building access. In fact, the address of 900 Front Street is misleading as that is, I assume, the address of the old El Garces depot which is completely inaccessible and is undergoing slow renovation as donations permit. To board Amtrak you must walk to the freight platform like any BNSF employee. In the middle of the night this is fairly obvious as the only activity is occuring at the freight platform.

The elimination of the motorcoach provider's waiting area was fairly recent -- say, six months ago or so, maybe longer.

I don't know off the top of my head what the exact waiting area in Kingman is like, but I do know that there is a row of businesses and a hotel across the street from the Kingman depot. It would make sense that one of these offices or spaces could be rented out. I know that the sign pointing passengers to that waiting area has been there for many months, if not a year. As recently as 1998, the actual Kingman depot was opened at night and it had a few old plastic chairs, along with rest rooms (don't know if they were in service). The ticket counter and window were all boarded up at the time. Unfortunately I don't have a great deal of business being in Kingman on a regular basis so I don't see this depot much. When I take the train from this area, I always leave from Needles as it is both closer and costs less to go westbound.

I have some pictures of the Needles depot area if you want to see what I am talking about. I'll upload them shortly (they're on a different computer).
 
Regarding your forum on service from L.A. to L.V., Amtrak sent me an Email saying that train service between the two cities is on hold. 20 miles of the track goes through the Mojave National Preserve. They must await approval of an Environmental Special Use Permit from the National Park Service.

Construction is expected to take 10-12 months with service to begin immediately upon completion. Service will be one round trip daily using a Spanish styled European Tilt Train. This equipment is currently operating in the Pacific Northwest.

Of course, that all hinges on whether Amtrak will still be in one piece after October of this year.

:unsure:
 
Poindexter118 said:
Regarding your forum on service from L.A. to L.V., Amtrak sent me an Email saying that train service between the two cities is on hold. 20 miles of the track goes through the Mojave National Preserve. They must await approval of an Environmental Special Use Permit from the National Park Service.
Construction is expected to take 10-12 months with service to begin immediately upon completion. Service will be one round trip daily using a Spanish styled European Tilt Train. This equipment is currently operating in the Pacific Northwest.

Of course, that all hinges on whether Amtrak will still be in one piece after October of this year.

:unsure:
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Is state going to fund it or what? I thought Penn load prevent from creating a new route.

Is e-mail that Amtrak sent you is a very brief message or still an "old" new thing?
 
Poindexter118 said:
Construction is expected to take 10-12 months with service to begin immediately upon completion.  Service will be one round trip daily using a Spanish styled European Tilt Train.  This equipment is currently operating in the Pacific Northwest.
Click to expand...
It almost sounds as if they gave you old information. ;) The Talgo (spanish tilting) set you referred to was originally planned (back in '98 to operate one round trip/daily between LA and LV, but has since been purchased by the Washington DOT and I am sure they have no intentions on giving it up since it is in use supporting their existing service.

Amtrak's 2004 State of Nevada Fact Sheet states the following:

"The Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada is working with the states of Nevada and California, Amtrak, freight railroads and marketing partners to study the feasibility and cost of five times a day intercity rail corridor service between Las Vegas and Los Angeles with a four-hour trip time. The study is expected to be completed by Fall 2005."

This message has remains unchanged since the 2003 State of Nevada Fact Sheet, except that the expected completion date of the feasibility study has been changed from last year's expected Summer 2004.

After reading both of those it should become apparently clear that no one in charge appears to be in any hurry to get the study done or actually begin running the trains. :(

Even after the feasibility study is completed I highly doubt the service could (would) begin 10-12 months later. Equipment would not to be ordered and purchased to operate along the route and an agreement would need to be reached between the States of Nevada and California to fully fund the operation of the service.
 
Thank you for the additional information about the Needles and Kingman stations, Anthony. The USA Rail Guide was the first source I consulted (it is one of my bookmarks and favorite sites) before I even came to this forum with the question, but it did not provide a few of the missing details you have.

I had no idea the motorcoach operator was responsible for providing passengers with an indoor waiting room! If this is one of Amtrak's demands I am surprised that they can even find a motorcoach operator willing to take the route; it doesn't seem like it would be that profitable to allow for renting a waiting room for their passengers!

The wait times were relatively short with the transfer at Needles, and the Southwest Chiefs run reliably enough to make their stops on time most of the time. Plus, with the transfer at Needles the thruway arriving from Vegas and returning could have (probably did?) remain at the station between the time it dropped off the passengers, both trains arrived/departed, and then the thruway departed to return to Vegas. In that scenario passengers could have simply remained onboard the thruway until their train arrived and they boarded, and have gotten on the thruway right away when they got off the train in Needles. None of this will be possible with the new transfer at Kingman.
 
Regarding the L.A. to L.V. run, the Email from Amtrak was dated January 05 of this year.

I don't know who's going to pay for the run. State or Feds. It would seem to me Nevada should pay for some, because as far as my wife and I are concerened, we'd ride the train to L.V. Highway 15's become a nightmare. My wife will not fly, period. We haven't been to L.V. in several years.
 

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