LSL Critique

[AlanB]

I seem to recall that the Viewliner was designed by the Budd Company but production was awarded to Amerail on their low ball bid. Amerail went under and I believe Alstrom , a french manufacturer is now the successor. From what I read Amtraks immediate need is to add 50 new Viewliner diners. The Viewliner trains will continue as Superliners cannot run on the NE corridor through NYC or Baltimore due to overhead clearance issues at the stations, tunnels and bridges. Therefore the LSL will always be a Viewliner train and because it originates in NYC , it will always be Expensive. The LSL is the home of Amtraks $800 bedrooms and high bucket $400 roomettes. I can't believe that people pay those prices. IMO you'd have to be an "azzhole" to fork over that kind of money but apparently people do it.

Amtrak designed and built the prototype Viewliner cars in its own shops.

They then put the production contract out for bid.

And I can't imagine why they need 50 diners. They only have 50 sleepers and each train has typically 2 or 3 sleepers and 1 diner, the exception being the Card.

As for the prices, if Amtrak gets the new Dorm/Bag cars, that will help to lower the LSL prices as there will now be 7 to 9 roomettes that are currently blocked out for crew that will be able to be sold to paying customers.

 

[cpamtfan]

Just to add-on about the LSL while this thread is up, I was talking with the condoctors on 48 about the dinner service west of Albany and they said crews never serve dinner. I passed through the diner just after Albany only to find it being cleaned out. Its a shame since its a senic route but we lacked food service on that leg. I saved a couple sodas, but my throat was dry so I needed something (No offence to Amtrak water but I just don't like it).

 

[AlanB]

Just to add-on about the LSL while this thread is up, I was talking with the condoctors on 48 about the dinner service west of Albany and they said crews never serve dinner. I passed through the diner just after Albany only to find it being cleaned out. Its a shame since its a senic route but we lacked food service on that leg. I saved a couple sodas, but my throat was dry so I needed something (No offence to Amtrak water but I just don't like it).

I'm assuming that you mean "east' or perhaps "south" of Albany, since 48 doesn't get into Albany until 2:50 and therefore would have no reason to serve dinner while still "west of Albany. Heck, they're just barely finishing up lunch before they get to ALB.

And without regard to what the conductors are saying, the crews are supposed to serve something after leaving ALB on the way to NYP.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I seem to recall that the Viewliner was designed by the Budd Company but production was awarded to Amerail on their low ball bid. Amerail went under and I believe Alstrom , a french manufacturer is now the successor. From what I read Amtraks immediate need is to add 50 new Viewliner diners. The Viewliner trains will continue as Superliners cannot run on the NE corridor through NYC or Baltimore due to overhead clearance issues at the stations, tunnels and bridges. Therefore the LSL will always be a Viewliner train and because it originates in NYC , it will always be Expensive. The LSL is the home of Amtraks $800 bedrooms and high bucket $400 roomettes. I can't believe that people pay those prices. IMO you'd have to be an "azzhole" to fork over that kind of money but apparently people do it.

The Viewliners were joint venture with Budd and Amtrak, with the idea being that Budd would build them. Initially, bidding wasn't something discussed. Amtrak and Budd worked together to design them, and Amtrak built them in their own shops. Amtrak, as per agreement, kept the rights to the design.

Budd would probably have been the builder, but there was a hitch. It wasn't Amerail low-balling them. It was Budd ceasing rail car building some years before.

The current order, as has been repeated by me and others, is:

1) 50 Full Baggage Cars

2) 25 Baggage-Dorm Cars

3) 25 Dining Cars

4) 25 Sleeping Cars

Alstom did not buy Amerail. Amerail didn't own any intellectual property. Their only product was the Viewliner and it wasn't theirs. Alstom bought Amerails shops in Hornell, NY. They bought a building, they didn't succeed anything.

The LSL is expensive because demand for its rooms exceeds the supply of them. If you put an additional sleeper onto both Boston and New York sections, plus a baggage dorm, you would see the price drop.

Lastly, I have quite frequently seen rooms going for $230, and have rode the LSL in sleeper several times. I don't pay more than low bucket. I don't consider sleeper to be worth more than low bucket, and coach it if I can't get a good enough price. Low bucket, in case you are interested, is currently $185. I don't do bedrooms as I don't consider those worth it, either. Two meals for two and beds to lay down on is worth $185 to me. More than that, I'd rather coach and buy my meals myself.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to finding good Amtrak prices. Personally, if you don't mind my saying so, I think you'd find your life a lot more pleasurable if you didn't go seeking only the best possible things, and then complaining that they cost so much.

 

[CHANGEATJAMAICA]

This seems to have devolved into a critique of VL vs SL, rather than LSL vs CL. In either case, I prefer VL roomettes over those on the SL when traveling solo. When in the company of my long suffering companion of nearly 46 years WE prefer the SL bedrooms over the VLs. Primarily becauses they're in better condition. HOWEVER, the sleeping conditions in the upper of SL are akin to spending the night in a coffin. Trying to navigate this 70+ year old body from the sleeping position to descend the ladder is "almost" impossible...but is accomplished with a minium (I say) of complaint, while Mrs. Trainwidow asserts it is accomplished with the maximum. Ah, that there was a happy medium.

Best regards,

Rodger

P.S. The rates for roomette or bedroom on the LSL are purely confiscatory owing probably to the lack of available space. TWO bedrooms on the only daily one train service between NYP and CHI is the poster child for supply vs demand economics.

 

[jmbgeg]

Strange that the diner light car wasn't a problem. IMHO that is the weakest part of lsl.

I got on at 9:30 in CHI and got off at CLE so meals were not part of the trip.

 

[Donctor]

The LSL is expensive because demand for its rooms exceeds the supply of them. If you put an additional sleeper onto both Boston and New York sections, plus a baggage dorm, you would see the price drop.
Lastly, I have quite frequently seen rooms going for $230, and have rode the LSL in sleeper several times. I don't pay more than low bucket. I don't consider sleeper to be worth more than low bucket, and coach it if I can't get a good enough price. Low bucket, in case you are interested, is currently $185. I don't do bedrooms as I don't consider those worth it, either. Two meals for two and beds to lay down on is worth $185 to me. More than that, I'd rather coach and buy my meals myself.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to finding good Amtrak prices. Personally, if you don't mind my saying so, I think you'd find your life a lot more pleasurable if you didn't go seeking only the best possible things, and then complaining that they cost so much.

I didn't realize that ridership on the Boston section warranted a second sleeper. Then again, I haven't ridden the BOS section recently enough that I have a long-term memory of it, me being too young at the time to recall much of the experience. (It wouldn't really matter, because ridership changes over time–no way.)

If you have access to ridership information (which I presume you do, given the authority with which you speak), I've a question: Does 4920 generally fill up east of ALB, or does it mostly serve pax boarding ALB-CHI? Whenever I'm on 49, I see a sizable crowd waiting to board at ALB, and there doesn't usually seem to be that much space on 49. Are many boarding cars from Boston?

 

[AlanB]

I didn't realize that ridership on the Boston section warranted a second sleeper. Then again, I haven't ridden the BOS section recently enough that I have a long-term memory of it, me being too young at the time to recall much of the experience. (It wouldn't really matter, because ridership changes over time–no way.)
If you have access to ridership information (which I presume you do, given the authority with which you speak), I've a question: Does 4920 generally fill up east of ALB, or does it mostly serve pax boarding ALB-CHI? Whenever I'm on 49, I see a sizable crowd waiting to board at ALB, and there doesn't usually seem to be that much space on 49. Are many boarding cars from Boston?

From what I've seen and experienced, the Boston sleeper is about 1/2 and 1/2. On average its about half full went departing ALB to the east or arriving into ALB from the east.

So a second sleeper east of ALB would run empty, assuming no load balancing, then fill up west of ALB.

 

[delvyrails]

The Viewliner trains will continue as Superliners cannot run on the NE corridor through NYC or Baltimore due to overhead clearance issues at the stations, tunnels and bridges. Therefore the LSL will always be a Viewliner train and because it originates in NYC , it will always be Expensive. The LSL is the home of Amtraks $800 bedrooms and high bucket $400 roomettes. I can't believe that people pay those prices. IMO you'd have to be an "azzhole" to fork over that kind of money but apparently people do it.

To the contrary, Amtrak spent some money on CSX's railroad between Washington and Pittsburgh to clear Superliners. It knew then that Superliners performed superior and less expensive service. It was willing to spend money to make and save money along the CL's route.

So it could be with LSL. Set up other New York and Boston termini back from NYP and BOS, each at a cheaper, car-accessible and transit-accessible location. No more special locomotives needed. No prohibition against scheduling during NJT's rush hours. No more winter problems with single-level equipment in lake-effect storms. No high platform and gauntlet construction projects needed at stations along the route for ADA.

Look long term, Amtrak!

 

[jis]

So it could be with LSL. Set up other New York and Boston termini back from NYP and BOS, each at a cheaper, car-accessible and transit-accessible location. No more special locomotives needed. No prohibition against scheduling during NJT's rush hours. No more winter problems with single-level equipment in lake-effect storms. No high platform and gauntlet construction projects needed at stations along the route for ADA.
Look long term, Amtrak!

Dream on. Absolutely fearless prediction. This won't happen Trains to Chicago that run at 19th century speeds do not need to be fed that much money to make life more inconvenient for a significant number of its users.

Such a change at the end of the day simply moves its terminus away from downtown and connections with other transit agencies and makes life more inconvenient for a significant number of its users. If they really were inclined to do so I suppose they could set up a platform at Croxton and bring it in on the River Line and then have people somehow transfer to Secaucus Jct. or alternatively dump folks somewhere in the Bronx. But as I said, won't happen. If there was any inkling of desire to do this there would have been no Viewliner order being contemplated.

 

[Eric S]

So it could be with LSL. Set up other New York and Boston termini back from NYP and BOS, each at a cheaper, car-accessible and transit-accessible location. No more special locomotives needed. No prohibition against scheduling during NJT's rush hours. No more winter problems with single-level equipment in lake-effect storms. No high platform and gauntlet construction projects needed at stations along the route for ADA.
Look long term, Amtrak!

Absolutely fearless prediction. This won;t happen in our or our grandchildren's lifetime Trains to Chicago that run at 19th century speeds do not need to be fed that much money to make life more inconvenient for a significant number of its users.

Well put! Let's create numerous new complications and costs just to introduce Superliners on the Lake Shore Limited.

 

[alanh]

And there's nothing per se about single level equipment that makes it more vulnerable to freezing; it's just the Viewliner's plumbing design.

 

[BuzzKillington]

So it could be with LSL. Set up other New York and Boston termini back from NYP and BOS, each at a cheaper, car-accessible and transit-accessible location. No more special locomotives needed. No prohibition against scheduling during NJT's rush hours. No more winter problems with single-level equipment in lake-effect storms. No high platform and gauntlet construction projects needed at stations along the route for ADA.
Look long term, Amtrak!

Absolutely fearless prediction. This won;t happen in our or our grandchildren's lifetime Trains to Chicago that run at 19th century speeds do not need to be fed that much money to make life more inconvenient for a significant number of its users.

Well put! Let's create numerous new complications and costs just to introduce Superliners on the Lake Shore Limited.

You could have the train start out at Secaucus, go west via Port Jervis and Binghamton to Syracuse or Buffalo, plenty of clearance and low level platforms.... but now I'm really dreaming!

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Viewliner trains will continue as Superliners cannot run on the NE corridor through NYC or Baltimore due to overhead clearance issues at the stations, tunnels and bridges. Therefore the LSL will always be a Viewliner train and because it originates in NYC , it will always be Expensive. The LSL is the home of Amtraks $800 bedrooms and high bucket $400 roomettes. I can't believe that people pay those prices. IMO you'd have to be an "azzhole" to fork over that kind of money but apparently people do it.



To the contrary, Amtrak spent some money on CSX's railroad between Washington and Pittsburgh to clear Superliners. It knew then that Superliners performed superior and less expensive service. It was willing to spend money to make and save money along the CL's route.

So it could be with LSL. Set up other New York and Boston termini back from NYP and BOS, each at a cheaper, car-accessible and transit-accessible location. No more special locomotives needed. No prohibition against scheduling during NJT's rush hours. No more winter problems with single-level equipment in lake-effect storms. No high platform and gauntlet construction projects needed at stations along the route for ADA.

Look long term, Amtrak!

The B&O operated Dome Cars between Chicago and Washington via the Pittsburgh-Washington line that the Capitol Limited now uses, so I am not aware that Amtrak spent any funds on the clearances on that route so that Superliners could be used.

 

[MikefromCrete]

I agree, I never heard that Amtrak spent any more on improving CSX clearances to allow Superliner operation. The B&O ran dome cars, so the clearances were apparently already there.

As far as starting the LSL in suburban NY and Boston in order to run Superliners, why that's the strangest proposal I've ever seen on this site.

 

[AlanB]

And there's nothing per se about single level equipment that makes it more vulnerable to freezing; it's just the Viewliner's plumbing design.

And based upon the drawings that I've seen, it looks as though the new Viewliner II plans use a new design that will help to minimize any freezing. The drawings all show an enclosed area under the car that hangs down several inches and would cover the bulk of the pipes. I can't be sure that's what its purpose is, or that it will really be in the production run, but if it is there and its what I think it is then it could really help things.

 

[cpamtfan]

And there's nothing per se about single level equipment that makes it more vulnerable to freezing; it's just the Viewliner's plumbing design.

And based upon the drawings that I've seen, it looks as though the new Viewliner II plans use a new design that will help to minimize any freezing. The drawings all show an enclosed area under the car that hangs down several inches and would cover the bulk of the pipes. I can't be sure that's what its purpose is, or that it will really be in the production run, but if it is there and its what I think it is then it could really help things.

I was thinking about that. Not really too hard to do and it doesn't seem like too bad of an idea.

 

[jis]

And there's nothing per se about single level equipment that makes it more vulnerable to freezing; it's just the Viewliner's plumbing design.

Specially considering that the famous number 1/2 Rossiya runs from Moscow to Vladivostok through the Russian steppes for 7 days at a time through the Russian winter, and by gosh, it uses single level equipment and does not suffer from these sorts of problems

 

[Ispolkom]

And there's nothing per se about single level equipment that makes it more vulnerable to freezing; it's just the Viewliner's plumbing design.

Specially considering that the famous number 1/2 Rossiya runs from Moscow to Vladivostok through the Russian steppes for 7 days at a time through the Russian winter, and by gosh, it uses single level equipment and does not suffer from these sorts of problems

Though there is a certain ya ne znayu about using a hopper toilet in subzero temperatures, and I recall once waking up in a sleeper compartment on the Moscow-Tambov "Tambov" covered by a light layer of snow.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

To the contrary, Amtrak spent some money on CSX's railroad between Washington and Pittsburgh to clear Superliners. It knew then that Superliners performed superior and less expensive service. It was willing to spend money to make and save money along the CL's route.
So it could be with LSL. Set up other New York and Boston termini back from NYP and BOS, each at a cheaper, car-accessible and transit-accessible location. No more special locomotives needed. No prohibition against scheduling during NJT's rush hours. No more winter problems with single-level equipment in lake-effect storms. No high platform and gauntlet construction projects needed at stations along the route for ADA.

Look long term, Amtrak!

In the long term, Viewliners make more sense than Superliners. Short of demolishing half of Manhattan to run the Empire Connection above ground, running Superliners into New York City is a non starter. And if the train doesn't start running at Penn Station or Grand Central Terminal, its a dead duck ridershipwise. There are enough runs to justify having a second New York based fleet of cars. The Amfleets aren't approaching retirement age, either. Being Budd cars, they can go another 15-20 years without serious problems. Amtrak's plans to replace them are mostly hooey.

So while you continue to need single level equipment to run the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, possible Silver Palm, and Crescent, you might as well run a single level Lake Shore Limited. Add to that plans to run a long distance train via Pittsburgh (A Broadway Limited of sorts), and all that, keeping the Lake Shore Limited single level makes sense. So does adding cars.

 

[Guest_ryanwc_*]

If given the choice again of the LSL or CL in the future I will take the CL. I was very disappointed with the LSL.
-Layout of viewliner hallways seems disjointed compared to superliners.

-Nominal room to navigate when beds down in deluxe rooms (less than superliners)

-Very aggravating problem when on several overnight stops, a circuit break tripped, causing HVAC, lights, etc. to reset. 4 times overnight this happened. The lights came back on and woke me up. Also, it tripped my digital alarm clock which I had to reset.

-The ladder for the upper berth was in a small closet and banged around all night.

-Wine and cheese event was not well executed (minor in proportion to above).

 

[Guest]

Hmmm.

I was attempting to use the quote above. The interface isn't intuitive - it seems to default you to the screen where you type in your screen name and code, but if you do so, it posts, even though you hadn't yet seen the box to type a post into. I thought I was signing in first.

Anyway, I was trying to suggest to the original poster that if he has a cell phone, he might be interested to learn that it likely has an alarm clock. It could save him a lot of hassle. That's not an excuse for 4 blown circuit breakers. It just might save him some aggravation. But maybe he doesn't have a cell phone.

 

[GAT]

So I am not sure that having a cell phone helps any in setting alarms, except that you can easily change its timezone temporarily to that of the area where you expect to wake up, and set the alarm while in that timezone setting.

I don't understand the above reasoning. We normally set an alarm for the time we want to wake up, regardless of where we are. Therefore, it seems to me that if I want to wake up in Ohio at 6:00am, it doesn't matter what time zone I'm in when I set my cellphone alarm. It will wake me up at 6:00am in whatever time zone I happen to be in at 6:00am, and I only have to hope that's before I get to Cleveland, where I want to get off the train. The only bad possibility is if the train gets stuck in the Central time zone for a few hours, I will be awakened long before I get to Cleveland - but I'll still be able to get dressed and go to the diner for a big Amtrak breakfast!