Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[dlagrua]

The Slumbercoaches utilized standard single level cars relatively high ceilings to 1. allow upper and lower berths in Double rooms, and 2. 'duplex' design single rooms that were of an interlocking design with each other. The NJT double deckers would not have sufficient height to allow that on both levels. They could have all single berth rooms on both levels, but not double rooms nor duplex interlocking single rooms.

I believe that this could be solved by using a center section with all single rooms on both levels and setting aside space at each end at platform level for H and double bunk rooms. Amtrak may not achieve the 40 passenger capacity of the Slumbercoach but small 6' single rooms could be located on both sides of the hallway on both levels. The question becomes would this design work better than the VLI and II designs? The point is that Amtrak now forces you to buy a roomette for two when space for one will do.

 

[b1xn00d]

Does Amtrak still own any of the ex-Santa Fe Hi-Levels? Seems like they're starting to realize that their capacity / equipment availability issues need to be addressed, and there won't be a whole lot of other sources of superliner-compatible equipment in the near future if they follow through on the promised repairs of superliner wrecks.

 

[jis]

Does Amtrak still own any of the ex-Santa Fe Hi-Levels?

No. They don’t.

 

[lrh442]

Does Amtrak still own any of the ex-Santa Fe Hi-Levels? Seems like they're starting to realize that their capacity / equipment availability issues need to be addressed, and there won't be a whole lot of other sources of superliner-compatible equipment in the near future if they follow through on the promised repairs of superliner wrecks.

Corridor Rail owns most of them and has been trying to find interested buyers for years now, offering to deliver them in a completely refurbished "zero-age" condition.

Corridor Rail Development

If Amtrak was serious about expanding passenger service on an accelerated timeline they would give this serious consideration. But, they aren't, and so they won't. They'll fiddle-fart around for a decade before the next gen equipment comes online. And that's if things go well. There is a very real chance that funding gets clawed back and Amtrak will have let a generational funding opportunity slip through its fingers.

 

[lordsigma]

If Amtrak was serious about expanding passenger service on an accelerated timeline they would give this serious consideration. But, they aren't, and so they won't. They'll fiddle-fart around for a decade before the next gen equipment comes online. And that's if things go well. There is a very real chance that funding gets clawed back and Amtrak will have let a generational funding opportunity slip through its fingers.

I think they’re moving in the right direction in many ways on the long distance purchase. Despite the complaints of many who have said the focus should be on heavy rebuilding the current fleet and acquiring other used equipment such as this in order to move faster I respectfully disagree. While they need to keep the current fleet going and restore cars to get service back to pre pandemic levels in the short and medium term, as far as long term accessibility of the long distance train experience to those with mobility disabilities isn’t optional and frankly shouldn't be. There’s a number of warranted criticisms of Amtrak but their decision to try to build a fleet of tomorrow to give more people access to the great things about long distance is not one of those things. They need to look to the future - not the past.

 

[b1xn00d]

I don't see why it's an either/or. Amtrak doesn't have enough functional equipment to meet the needs of today, let alone for planned expansions, and the delivery of the first superliner replacements is still a long time from now.

Another rational solution would be freeing up superliners by replacing some long-distance consists with venture cars, but I haven't seen any movement in that direction either.

 

[west point]

Corridor Rail Development

If Amtrak was serious about expanding passenger service on an accelerated timeline they would give this serious consideration. But, they aren't, and so they won't.

It would take a mandate by congress for Amtrak to do that acquisition. The mandate would require an independent agency to verify that the equipment is road worthy and passenger worthy not Amtrak that could find all sorts of reasons to not use. If just road worthy use them for axel count cars. Get surplus from axel cars and make passenger worthy. Also, Congress should require that Amtrak use independent car repair facilities to do what work they can and leave final restorations to Amtrak.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Corridor Rail owns most of them and has been trying to find interested buyers for years now, offering to deliver them in a completely refurbished "zero-age" condition.

Corridor Rail Development

If Amtrak was serious about expanding passenger service on an accelerated timeline they would give this serious consideration. But, they aren't, and so they won't. They'll fiddle-fart around for a decade before the next gen equipment comes online. And that's if things go well. There is a very real chance that funding gets clawed back and Amtrak will have let a generational funding opportunity slip through its fingers.

All kinds of agencies have looked at those Santa Fe hi-levels for years, and nobody is interested.

 

[Amtrak25]

Venture cars are titled to the midwest states. Amtrak can't just take them. The seats are horrible enough as it is for trips of several hours. They would be intolerable for overnight. It is ironic that Amtrak magically produced 8 Horizon cars for Chicago Polar Express.

Most of the Santa Fe hi-levels are pushing 70 years old. They also have major ADA and bathroom issues. Amtrak will not now touch them. For once, they are right.

Talgo figured out how to do major overhauls on Metrolink's lozenge-shaped, bi-level commuter coaches. But Amtrak has made no attempt to outsource any of their overhaul work, only to whine that nobody wants to work anymore. Meanwhile, all eastern long distance consists are down one Amfleet-2 coach from 2019. The 3rd Silver Meteor sleeper is also gone along with the overnight BOS-WAS sleeper. The Covid excuse is getting old.

 

[jis]

Meanwhile, all eastern long distance consists are down one Amfleet-2 coach from 2019. The 3rd Silver Meteor sleeper is also gone along with the overnight BOS-WAS sleeper.

I was on the Silver Star yesterday. It had four Coaches.

The third Silver Meteor Sleeper went to become third Sleeper in the Lake Shore Limited NY section. But I agree they should restore the third on the Meteor and also add a fourth as was planned for 2024-25.

Venture cars are titled to the midwest states. Amtrak can't just take them. The seats are horrible enough as it is for trips of several hours. They would be intolerable for overnight. It is ironic that Amtrak magically produced 8 Horizon cars for Chicago Polar Express.

I think most of the mothballed Horizons are coming back to service within the next 12 months. They will be used for the earlier start corridor expansions pending arrival of new equipment.

Most of the Santa Fe hi-levels are pushing 70 years old. They also have major ADA and bathroom issues. Amtrak will not now touch them. For once, they are right.

Yeah. I agree. Their claim about making them available in zero mileage state is marketing hype and everyone including them know it. But they are hoping to find one of the fools from the set of alleged fool born every minute, to part from their money. In any case Amtrak should not touch them with a ten foot barge pole.

 

[lordsigma]

The Covid excuse is getting old.

One thing that does persist from COVID is the supply chain issues which has dramatically increased lead times on a lot of different parts. While I'm not attempting to offer this as an explanation for each individual situation, as a general rule bad ordered equipment when it ends up in the shop ends up sitting for much longer periods of time than prior to COVID waiting for parts and repairs. According to a report from the Next Generation Equipment Committee last year this continues to be a major issue fleet wide. This means planning in general for a higher amount of equipment sitting in the shop and yes shorter consists (and in the case of Acela has contributed to less frequencies.) The new equipment is also being affected by this - while somewhat off topic for LD supposedly this is the single biggest issue the SC44 fleet has such terrible availability at the moment. When one is shopped in Chicago it sits and sits and sits. Lead time for the common parts is terrible.

 

[JWM]

Does Amtrak still own any of the ex-Santa Fe Hi-Levels? Seems like they're starting to realize that their capacity / equipment availability issues need to be addressed, and there won't be a whole lot of other sources of superliner-compatible equipment in the near future if they follow through on the promised repairs of superliner wrecks.

The last ones served as the "Pacific Parlour Cars" on the "Coast Starlight". An earlier Amtrak President pulled the plug on them. I loved the "Starlight" then and have not taken it since.

 

[Amtrak25]

The commuter railroads don't seem to have this issue, except NJT, which has never been known for 40 years for its productive shops. Metra Gallery cars are all at least 20 to 60 years old. The Charger locomotives on the commuter railroads, Brightline, and VIA Rail are not dropping like flies nor shop queens to anything the extent that Amtrak's are. MARC still runs their HHP locomotives, yet Amtrak retired theirs, and cannibalized 4 Acela sets to boot.

Amtrak had an uncontrolled buyout, yet too incompetent to outsource any maintenance work, like Metrolink (Talgo) and PATH (Kawasaki) are now doing.

For the LD issue, while a bunch of Superliners are domiciled to Carbondale trains per CN, they should be able to buy back the 11 that California repaired and not procrastinate until 2024 to put a bunch of Horizon cars back on their feet with COT&S jobs. Still don't know where all the Amfleet-2 coaches have gone. By my count of the eastern long hauls, excepting the Silver Star, they are down by 13 coaches in circulation, yet seem to have no trouble putting out 9 car NE Regionals with the oldest Amtrak cars in the system.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

One thing that does persist from COVID is the supply chain issues which has dramatically increased lead times on a lot of different parts. While I'm not attempting to offer this as an explanation for each individual situation, as a general rule bad ordered equipment when it ends up in the shop ends up sitting for much longer periods of time than prior to COVID waiting for parts and repairs. According to a report from the Next Generation Equipment Committee last year this continues to be a major issue fleet wide. This means planning in general for a higher amount of equipment sitting in the shop and yes shorter consists (and in the case of Acela has contributed to less frequencies.) The new equipment is also being affected by this - while somewhat off topic for LD supposedly this is the single biggest issue the SC44 fleet has such terrible availability at the moment. When one is shopped in Chicago it sits and sits and sits. Lead time for the common parts is terrible.

Agree quite strongly with this; despite what a lot think, the economy, particularly construction, is white hot right now and production and shipping can only ramp up so much* to meet this extraordinary demand.

*In other words, the factory producing widgets can't expand quickly to meet the demand because it's affected by the same supply line issues it's customers are facing.

 

[b1xn00d]

The current economic conditions can hardly be waved away as "extraordinary" or "temporary" when they've been going on for years now. Businesses including Amtrak need to adapt to these shortages, not keep trying in vain to wait them out.

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A very gentle nudge to move this thread back to discussing LD fleet replacement that is in process, and away from current fleet maintenance issues and purchasing 75 year old cars. Thank you.

 

[lordsigma]

Today, December 15, 2023, Amtrak issued the RFP for the bi-level Long Distance fleet replacement. They are releasing very little details at this point but responses to the RFP are due 12/22. One can view the RFP on Amtrak's procurement portal. WS4300581645 .......and yes.....whatever blockhead posted it put a typo in the title. Amtrak Procurement Portal

 

[Steve4031]

That’s a pretty short turn around time. A week?

 

[Jack Kittle]

That’s a pretty short turn around time. A week?

Seems to be an opportunity to show qualifications to be allowed to get the bid package

From the linked site: 'On Friday, December 22, 2023, Amtrak intends to issue an RFP to all qualified and interested Trainset Manufacturers (Car Builders) to provide Bi-Level Equipment, Supplies, and TSSSA services for the manufacture and replacement of Amtrak’s Long-Distance Fleet.
Amtrak is soliciting offers from established and qualified Car Builders who have prior experience successfully designing and manufacturing rail vehicles for the North American passenger rail market. This experience includes, but is not limited to engineering, design, production, assembly, inspection, testing, delivery, warranty and maintenance support services.
If interested and qualified in receiving this RFP, please contact Donna Hennessy by close of business on Wednesday December 20, 2023 via email at [email protected] to ensure that your firm receives an invitation to this Solicitation through our procurement system of record, Ariba on Demand (AOD). Once invited, you will be able to access the Solicitation Documents and participate in the RFP.'

 

[Amtrak25]

Would there be a 2nd parallel process for single level, or have they made their minds up to buy bi-level equipment ?

 

[west point]

established and qualified Car Builders who have prior experience successfully designing and manufacturing rail vehicles for the North American passenger rail market.

Guess that partial sentence will exclude Nippon S ?

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

That’s a pretty short turn around time. A week?

Sounds like it’s a done deal and a technicality.

 

[Septa9739]

It seems like about a week is the standard for nonconstruction opportunities.

 

[alanh]

Would there be a 2nd parallel process for single level, or have they made their minds up to buy bi-level equipment ?

It's says "bi-level replacement", but doesn't say that the replacement has to be bi-level.

 

[lordsigma]

There’s a number of ways this could go. There could be another single level RFP. Amtrak also has an option for single level long distance coaches in the Airo contract that could be exercised to replace the Amfleet 2 equipment. We’ll have to see if more details come out next week.