Locomotives

[Amtrak Watcher]

The Empire Builder has two parts in Oregon and Washington that meet and split at Spokane. The two parts west of Spokane have only one locomotive. Now, the Texas Eagle has only one locomotive for the summer season.

Why are there usually multiple locomotives when apparently only one will do the job on some routes? Are multiple locomotives used for reliability reasons? What are the chances of the locomotive failing and thus stranding a train with only one?

 

[AlanB]

AW,

There are a few factors that influence the decision to run one vs. two locomotives. Certainly one of the first is quite simply should one fail, at least you can keep the train limping along. I was once on the Silver Palm from Florida back to NY when the head end power failed somewhere in North Carolina. I could actually see the smoke pouring out of the engine for a few minutes.

This left us without power for almost an hour and it did start to get quite warm in the train. Thankfully at our next stop the engineer was able to walk back to the second engine and turn on its generator. This way we were able to get power back for the rest of the trip. Without that second engine we would have had no A/C, no power, no food, and no toilets all the way to DC.

So having a second engine IMHO on a long distance train is a good thing for this reason alone.

The other thing that influences the engine count is how many cars are on the train. Now that Express Service is being discontinued Amtrak is finding that one engine can now haul the remaining cars on many of its trains. So in an effort to hold down costs they are cutting back on that extra engine. It's becoming a cost vs. a potential passenger comfort issue.

Now for something like the Builder, I can see running one engine on each leg of the split. However IMHO east of Spokane it should always run with two. A train stranded on one of the split legs isn't too far from help. A train stranded in the middle of Montana due to engine failure is a long ways from help.

As for the chances, well that's anybody's guess. It really depends on too many factors. Age of the unit, maintenance on the unit, weather conditions, track conditions, even the load that the engine is pulling along with the grade can affect performance. However I would not be at all surprised to be reading at least one story before the summer is over, talking about a stranded Texas Eagle.

 

[P40Power]

Well I agree totally that there should be multiple locomotives on long distance trains such as the Builder and Eagle incase of a failure in the middle of nowhere. Now if they want to cut down on Diesel consumption along with the other costs of running more then one locomotive, why cant they just have a second unit not running tag along in the consist incase of a failure or the locomotives can switch off running en route or something. Amtrak has a wicked surplus of diesel locomotives (ever since that uneeded order for 85 P42s a few years ago).

 

[Amtrak Watcher]

Now I'm worried. As often as I'm on the Texas Eagle these days (about 4 times a month), I'll be the stranded one - out beyond Big Sandy somewhere in the heat and humididy waiting for a locomotive.

Do you suppose they let the passengers get out of the hot cars while waiting to be rescued?

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Yes if it is safe to do so they let people off the trains.

 

[battalion51]

I wouldn't say that. On Sunday our locomotive didn't fail, but 687's did. Our HEP needed to be down while we were coupling and all that good stuff, and for a large portion of that we were stopped. We were in a safe spot, but the simple truth is crowd control. It's much easier to open all your doors and let the breeze do its job than to let people off the train. For example, we had an engine failure a few years back in Avon Park (just north of Sebring). The Conductor and his crew made the mistake of letting people off for fresh air. Well camps were set up at a cement factory just off the right of way. Let's just say the Conductor and many members of his crew spent thirty days on the street for that one.

Why are there usually multiple locomotives when apparently only one will do the job on some routes? Are multiple locomotives used for reliability reasons? What are the chances of the locomotive failing and thus stranding a train with only one?

Well as for locomotive failure, that's obviously an issue when you run solo engine wise. With the P-42's (especially the higher numbered ones) have been dead in the water a lot. I know of at least a half a dozen engines in that series that have died on JAX crew base time, and that's just JAX alone, much less all the other crew bases. But let's look at reality here, Engines 169 and up (the last order) were not necessary. The P-40's and 1-168 can easily handle the work load, and probably more reliably too, as P-40's that die are few and far between (that's one of the many reasons why Auto Train continues to run on their power). But we are stuck with what we got, and we're gonna have to make do with it.

 

[Amfleet]

It always seems to me that the locomotives HEP tends to quit in hotter weather/climants. At least that's how I'm interperting it.

 

[P40Power]

Speaking of problems with the higher numbered P42s, I recall seeing recent rosters showing a couple of the locomotives in the 200 series out of service due electrical falures, and I think a couple were also out of service from fire damage as well. GE must have had some production issues or something on these units. And I agree battalion that it was not necessary for 85 of those new P42s, I mean Amtrak had some just rebuilt F40PHs and plenty of P40s to augment a smaller P42 unit order (I think your idea of just needing up to 168 would have worked out just fine.) You say the P40s are actually more reliable? Well its a shame then that they are being mothballed in favor of more unreliable units!

 

[battalion51]

Well as my buddy Ron says "Warrington got that last order for a song." In return GE turns out hunks of junk. The P-40 runs like a song (any Engineer in his right mind that has run both engines will tell you). The load time on a P-40 is a fraction of a P-42, the brakes are easier to operate, and the don't crap out nearly as often as P-42's.

 

[Amfleet]

This brings me to a question as to why Gunn is retiring 40 P-40s and not 40 P-42s? I think part of the malfunctions in these units had to do with poor matainance, no money, lack of time, and the unavalibility of correct parts to fix problems (I'm blaming Warrington, not the employees here).

 

[battalion51]

Well crappy maintenence certainly hasn't helped in the matter. (Off the topic when I told my Amtrak buddies I was going to Locomotive Maintenence in Wilmington the overwhelming reaction was, "What Amtrak does maintenence? ) I know of at least one orphan unit, that being good ole Engine 4. The unit was in Intercity East died, sent to Sanford died, and was then rapidly shipped from Sanford to Chicago in a matter of three days. The fact is, that rather than maintaining engines, each leg of Amtrak simply passes the unit onto another leg of the system.

 

[Amfleet]

One big game of hot potato if you ask me...

 

[Amtrak Watcher]

Is there a way to tell a P-40 from a P-42 by simple observation?

 

[AMTRAK-P42]

Well, lets see. Other than the numbers, the p40's tend to have a second rear port-window. Although, if the engine were connected to a train, that might be harder to see.

 

[P40Power]

Easiest oberservation to tell the difference between the P40s and P42s nowadays? The roadnumber. The P42s are numbered from 1-207, and the P40s are 800 series locomotives 800-843. Before 1999 or so, P40s could be told apart from P42s because their striping faded out towards the rear of the locomotive and there were three strobe lights right above the top of the windshield. Around 1999 all P40s were repainted into phas IV which was no different then P42s that had that scheme and the strobes were removed.

 

[AMTRAK-P42]

On a side note, Amtrak has begun to Mothball the P40's (800 series) and using the P42's as the main road units. Alot of the 800's are making their homes on the eastern coast.

 

[Amtrak Watcher]

Is the "road number" the little number in the window on the front, or is it the big number painted on the side? Are both these numbers always the same?

 

[Viewliner]

Is the "road number" the little number in the window on the front, or is it the big number painted on the side? Are both these numbers always the same?

Yes.

 

[Amtrak Watcher]

What does "load time" of a locomotive mean?

 

[Amfleet]

What does "load time" of a locomotive mean?

The amount of time it takes for the brakes to be released. Unlike your car, trains use air pressure to control breaks and is one reason it takes a train a long time to slow down.

 

[AlanB]

What does "load time" of a locomotive mean?

The amount of time it takes for the brakes to be released. Unlike your car, trains use air pressure to control breaks and is one reason it takes a train a long time to slow down.

Um, actually I thought that load time was the amount of time from when the engineer pushes the throttle forward to the point where the engine actually starts moving. There is always a momentary delay as the diesel engine increases power, the genernator starts to spin faster, and the resulting electricity flows to the drive motors on the trucks, before the engine starts to move.

I'm not sure if they actually measure the time from advancing the throttle till the engine starts moving or if it's measured till the time the train reaches it's desired speed.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Alan you are correct GE are slow loading engines it makes it hard to use these when your switching EMD load up quick but i like GE the best.

 

[P40Power]

I dont know really, I havent experienced any real slow loading times on trains being pulled by Genesis locomotives. Two P42s got our 18 car jamed packed Lake Shore Limited up to speed quite well after station stops back in 97. The P40s also accelerated very quickly on our foliage flyer last fall which had 2 P40s and 11 quite full Amfleet coaches. From what I understand the slower loading times that are claimed are due to the unit's having to meet certain emission standards which hampers acceleration.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

The P42s are quicker then the older ones.

 

[P40Power]

I actually heard the contrary, the P40s pick up faster.