Kind of glad Amtrak is slower than Europian Trains

[amamba]

So I saw on the news last night that now they think the Engineer of the spanish crash was on the phone when the train derailed. :angry2:

It sounds like a tragedy caused by engineer/user error, IMO.

 

[Ryan]

On the phone with the dispatcher, even.

Epic fail.

 

[amamba]

On the phone with the dispatcher, even.
Epic fail.

Oh, was I mistaken? do you mean he was on the phone shooting the breeze with the dispatcher, or was he on the phone doing legitimate communication with the dispatcher? I wasn't sure if this is a situation of the american tv news spinning the story for drama.

 

[TVRM610]

He was on "the phone" (I think it may have been some type or radio) doing legitimate business. They were discussing which tracks the train would enter.

I believe he was distracted by the call and didn't realize where he was until it was too late. This was not someone driving reckless, this was complacency which can unfortunately happen to all of us.

The fact that this section of track is not ATC is what is really criminal. (Something that would not be allowed in the USA).

A simple flashing light trackside 2 miles ahead of the curve probably would have prevented this.

 

[RRUserious]

I think the caller was largely responsible for the accident. This was hardly the time to make the call. It should have happened an hour earlier. It would be like Delta's home office phoning up the captain of a plane as it descended for a landing. The engineer should have said "Hey, not now!!!!" But when do employees ever do that? Anyway, the lawsuits are going to gobble all this up.

 

[VentureForth]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

 

[jis]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

But they do talk to dispatchers quite a bit even in the US of A, no?

 

[TVRM610]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

But they do talk to dispatchers quite a bit even in the US of A, no?

If they don't... I'm not sure who the heck I'm listening to on my scanner!?

(that's a joke by the way... yes engineers are always communicating by radio with dispatchers, Conductors, etc. here in the USA.)

 

[dlagrua]

Amtrak has a stellar safety record. Most of the accidents involve a truck or automobile passing a grade crossing where the lights and gates are down or involve "daredevil" drivers who refuse to acknowledge that they shouldn't cross the tracks when a train is coming. Then we read in the news "Amtrak train collides with automobile or truck"! or "Amtrak train hits car or truck" According to the news, its always the trains fault.

As for the French train accident , it raises many questions. The engineer had the throttle set too high on the curve but where was the conductor who is sitting right next to him? He is supposed to monitor the speed, signals and track conditions. I believe that Amtrak has a way of governing/monitoring the speed of its trains so this type of accident may not happen on Amtrak. The French train accident really has nothing to do with speed as it does gross negligence by the engineer.

 

[Ryan]

French?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

French?

Well, you know, one of those Europian countries. :giggle"

 

[jis]

As for the French train accident , it raises many questions. The engineer had the throttle set too high on the curve but where was the conductor who is sitting right next to him? He is supposed to monitor the speed, signals and track conditions. I believe that Amtrak has a way of governing/monitoring the speed of its trains so this type of accident may not happen on Amtrak. The French train accident really has nothing to do with speed as it does gross negligence by the engineer.

French? Surely you mean Spanish?

What Conductor are you talking about? There was a single Driver as far as I could tell from the various reports.

Of course one is free to believe whatever one likes, but that does not make it so. Outside of the NEC, and few other relatively short segments, Amtrak has no way to ensure that a train is running in compliance with the signal indication and within the civil speed limit. It depends entirely on the engineer to make sure that such happens. That is what this whole hoo-haa about PTC is all about.

Remember the Pere Marquette collision just outside of Chicago? Did not involve any automobiles or road vehicles. That is what happens to Amtrak trains when the Engineer screws up. No automatic protection whatsoever. Fortunately in spite of double screwup the Engineer could not get himself to believe that going faster than 40mph was OK. That was the civil speed limit, but the signal speed limit was actually 15mph, per his called signal 30mph, but what he remembered was consistent with believing that the speed limit was 40mph. So go figure. Just one example there. One can dig up many such with a little effort.

 

[TVRM610]

The French train accident really has nothing to do with speed as it does gross negligence by the engineer.

This IMHO is not "gross negligence" this is called "work related distraction and complacency" along with a lack of safety systems in place by the railroad. Gross Negligence would be the engineer ignoring signals, alarms, or other safety devices... from all reports I've read there was NO alert or indication about the speed of the curve. Just simply the engineer having to know about the curve.

I'm not saying the driver didn't mess up here... obviously he did. But this is not gross negligence. This is what happens when an employee becomes complacent. All humans are guilty of complacency.

I'll repeat what I said before.. I think he got distracted by the call from the dispatcher and forgot exactly where he was. and by the time he realized it was way too late.

As I was typing this I went to search for the accident that JIS referenced above.

 

[RRUserious]

Seems like the trains lack some safety features in their design. That much shouldn't be dependent on pure mental discipline of the engineer. Plus there should be limits on when and where they can call him.

 

[dlagrua]

French?

OK another flub. You got me. Brain freeze. Spanish.

 

[VentureForth]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

But they do talk to dispatchers quite a bit even in the US of A, no?

If they don't... I'm not sure who the heck I'm listening to on my scanner!?
(that's a joke by the way... yes engineers are always communicating by radio with dispatchers, Conductors, etc. here in the USA.)

jis - yes they do, but most of the conversation is between dispatcher and the non-driving conductor. Most communication is very short and to the point. Communication between the engineer and the conductor is generally when the train is stopped or during yard work, back up moves, etc.

 

[jis]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

But they do talk to dispatchers quite a bit even in the US of A, no?

If they don't... I'm not sure who the heck I'm listening to on my scanner!?
(that's a joke by the way... yes engineers are always communicating by radio with dispatchers, Conductors, etc. here in the USA.)

jis - yes they do, but most of the conversation is between dispatcher and the non-driving conductor. Most communication is very short and to the point. Communication between the engineer and the conductor is generally when the train is stopped or during yard work, back up moves, etc.

Not in my experience on Amtrak trains, The Engineer who is alone in the engine, does communicate quite a bit with dispatchers on occasions. And sometimes even beyond dispatchers, doing things like asking the conductor to get the coffee ready for the next stop etc. too. So it is not at all as cut and dried as you are trying to make it seem.

As a matter of fact this is a major point of discussion on a thread at trainorders board. The general conclusion seems to be that it would be a bad thing if the FRA banned all radio use by Engineer. However, it remains the Engineer's responsibility to make sure that they use the radio responsibly and not get distracted at critical times.

 

[VentureForth]

Tried not to make it cut and dry with the superlatives "Most" and "generally".

 

[jis]

I understand

 

[RRUserious]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

But they do talk to dispatchers quite a bit even in the US of A, no?

If they don't... I'm not sure who the heck I'm listening to on my scanner!?
(that's a joke by the way... yes engineers are always communicating by radio with dispatchers, Conductors, etc. here in the USA.)

jis - yes they do, but most of the conversation is between dispatcher and the non-driving conductor. Most communication is very short and to the point. Communication between the engineer and the conductor is generally when the train is stopped or during yard work, back up moves, etc.

Not in my experience on Amtrak trains, The Engineer who is alone in the engine, does communicate quite a bit with dispatchers on occasions. And sometimes even beyond dispatchers, doing things like asking the conductor to get the coffee ready for the next stop etc. too. So it is not at all as cut and dried as you are trying to make it seem.

As a matter of fact this is a major point of discussion on a thread at trainorders board. The general conclusion seems to be that it would be a bad thing if the FRA banned all radio use by Engineer. However, it remains the Engineer's responsibility to make sure that they use the radio responsibly and not get distracted at critical times.

Well, there's difference between, say, air traffic controllers talk to pilots at cruising altitude and when the plane is on a landing trajectory. I would assume, for safety's sake that applies with chatter on these high speed trains. Amtrak mostly does not approach the speed this train was going. Our tracks aren't up to that. So I'd be careful making that sort of analogy.

 

[AlanB]

Train engineer/operator/driver shouldn't have to talk to the dispatcher whilest driving. He just goes according to his time table and follows the signals. If he ends up somewhere weird, he'll eventually come up on a red light and THAT'S the time to pick up the phone.

But they do talk to dispatchers quite a bit even in the US of A, no?

If they don't... I'm not sure who the heck I'm listening to on my scanner!?
(that's a joke by the way... yes engineers are always communicating by radio with dispatchers, Conductors, etc. here in the USA.)

jis - yes they do, but most of the conversation is between dispatcher and the non-driving conductor. Most communication is very short and to the point. Communication between the engineer and the conductor is generally when the train is stopped or during yard work, back up moves, etc.

I'm sorry, but no. Even with your extra words of "most" and "generally" your statement is far from correct. Yes, on freight trains your statement would apply in general. But not for one instance would it ever apply on an Amtrak train.

The conductor never communicates with the dispatcher on an Amtrak train; in large part because their portable hand held radio doesn't have the power to reach the radio towers along the route. All communication between the dispatcher and the train is via the engine and its occupant(s). That could mean that it's the engineer or it could mean that it's the fireman on trains that have that position filled.

And since outside of the NEC, all signals less than clear must be called on all RR's and east of the Mississippi River all signals are called even clears, that means that the engineer is on the radio quite a bit, unless again a fireman is in the cab.

Now if there is only an engineer in the cab, then in order to copy a form D (a change for any reason from the pre-departure instructions or used where there are no signals or working signals) then the engineer must stop the train to copy the order. Often that process is done at a station when the train is already stopped, and there may be radio communications between the engineer & the dispatcher to discuss the fact that they will need to do that at the upcoming stop, but there are times when the engineer will just stop the train on the mainline wherever to copy said order.

 

[jis]

One peculiarity that was mentioned in the discussion on this on the TO Board is that at least on certain railroads one has to stop to copy a restriction order but not so for a release order!!! Now that befuddles me, but on some reflection it sort of makes sense.

 

[TVRM610]

RRUserious... This train was going 119 mph... Amtrak trains run at that speed and higher. So the analogy works perfect.

 

[RRUserious]

RRUserious... This train was going 119 mph... Amtrak trains run at that speed and higher. So the analogy works perfect.

Name the trains.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

RRUserious... This train was going 119 mph... Amtrak trains run at that speed and higher. So the analogy works perfect.

The only trains that currently run above that speed are the Acela trains, or am I mistaken about that? The majority of the Amtrak trains do not run anywhere near that speed.