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You know the return on investment of a sports stadium vs public transit? And what if the government stopped subsidizing roads and air in favor of rail?
Is there a return on public "investment" in a sport stadium? I've always thought that any public money spent on sports teams was a dead loss.
As for your second question, Minnesota won't stop subsidizing roads and air in favor of rail. The air subsidies are minor, I think (mostly improvements at small airports), but the requirement to maintain a public road network has been a whole separate article in the state constitution for almost a hundred years.
I'm not sure how Minnesota does it, but what I've seen around where I've lived is that when a municipality invests in a sports stadium, they OWN it. They then grant license fees and collect rent from ALL the users. For instance, the Texas Stadium is HOME to the Dallas Cowboys. The city of Arlington owns the facility and charges the Cowboys to rent it - not to mention all advertising and ticket fees are split between the NFL, the Stadium (city), etc. Many other entities use Texas Stadium throughout the year in the off season, though of course none come close to the revenue of the primary user. Concessions are also run by the stadium - not by the sports team. Then there are the increased hotel taxes and fuel taxes that are collected by the the city and state from the 70,000 people that converge on the facility.

Obviously reality is much more complex than this and I could be totally off, but that's how I understand it.

Meanwhile, public rail in the US (unlike many other countries) is priced to be a way of subsidizing travel to those with disabilities or low incomes. Public busses (Greyhound is NOT a public bus!) are the same way, but politically easier to swallow. When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?

These are tax drains on an economy. When it is planned well enough and there is a population big enough, rail has a huge place in the movement of people around the country. Otherwise, it's an expensive toy. That being said, I LOVE the fact that Amtrak exists and I will continue to patronize them as time, money and experiences permit.
 
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The Arlington also sold hundreds of millions of dollars in tax-exempt bonds to build the stadium, so we're all paying for that stadium in a bigger federal deficit. Also, isn't there a county half percent sales tax?

As far as full city buses go, the last one I saw was the #94B I was on in St. Paul this morning. Mrs. Ispolkom had a breakfast meeting out in some suburb, so she took the car, and I took the bus. Before that, in Chicago the #66 and #146 buses we were on last weekend were full. Not that it matters, but my income is hardly low, nor am I disabled. Not that there is anything wrong with either condition.
 
I prefer to stick to facts and political reality. The political reality is that the state of Minnesota will never pay to run a train that goes through Wisconsin without Wisconsin also paying. I'll happily promise to buy you a first-class ticket on the first run of any such train, because I know I'll never have to pay up.
Heh. Thanks -- we'll see. That's a particularly easy bet to win, because I don't think any such train will *have* first class seats. ;) Coach-only seems to be the trend...
FWIW, Michigan runs trains through Indiana, Maine runs trains through New Hampshire, and Oklahoma used to run a train through Texas, without support from the intervening states.

On the other hand, I'm modestly hopeful that I was wrong in my claim that light rail would start at SPUD before Amtrak moves in. I eagerly await the January 27 announcement.
As a confirmed pessimist most of the time (yeah, I know, you wouldn't think it from this conversation, would you?) I'm currently betting on "March 31st", which would be the latest possible date to move Amtrak within the "first quarter" restriction of the contract.
 
I prefer to stick to facts and political reality. The political reality is that the state of Minnesota will never pay to run a train that goes through Wisconsin without Wisconsin also paying. I'll happily promise to buy you a first-class ticket on the first run of any such train, because I know I'll never have to pay up.
Heh. Thanks -- we'll see. That's a particularly easy bet to win, because I don't think any such train will *have* first class seats. ;) Coach-only seems to be the trend...
FWIW, Michigan runs trains through Indiana, Maine runs trains through New Hampshire, and Oklahoma used to run a train through Texas, without support from the intervening states.
Also, NC pays for the Carolinian which runs through VA. Vermont was exclusively paying to support the Vermonter north of Springfield, although MA and CT are now chipping in for their share of the passengers north of New Haven.
I would think the deciding factor for Minnesota is how much it will cost in one time capital costs and continuing subsidy to operate a single daily train to Chicago. The trip times of the EB from CHI to the Twin Cities is already fairly good, so there is not a need for major track upgrades to get decent speeds. It comes down to how much CP will demand in track upgrades to add a second passenger train to the route? If it is not much or the state and CP can reach an agreement on a multi-year series of incremental upgrades for future service improvements that spreads the cost out while the new corridor service is running, then it won't cost MN much out of its annual budget. The state and the Twin Cities are spending a lot of money to add light rail lines and restore SPUD as a modern intermodal station. The cost of a single daily Twin Cities to Chicago corridor train should be small potatoes in comparison. The bigger cost may be in the rolling stock if MN wants to have the new corridor bi-level cars for the service. But there may be ways to pay for that.

As for first class seats, the corridor bi-level order includes a number of cars with business class seating. So substitute a business class ticket for the bet if you win.
 
"...When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?"

Um, this morning. In the Seattle area, King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit (Snohomish County) buses are packed at rush hour.
 
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"...When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?"

Um, this morning. In the Seattle area, King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit (Snohomish County) buses are packed at rush hour.
And Tri-Met (Portland, OR), and Vancouver, BC, and Washington, DC, and Baltimore, and Chicago, and even Los Angeles, among many others.
 
I prefer to stick to facts and political reality. The political reality is that the state of Minnesota will never pay to run a train that goes through Wisconsin without Wisconsin also paying. I'll happily promise to buy you a first-class ticket on the first run of any such train, because I know I'll never have to pay up.
Heh. Thanks -- we'll see. That's a particularly easy bet to win, because I don't think any such train will *have* first class seats. ;) Coach-only seems to be the trend...
FWIW, Michigan runs trains through Indiana, Maine runs trains through New Hampshire, and Oklahoma used to run a train through Texas, without support from the intervening states.
Also, NC pays for the Carolinian which runs through VA. Vermont was exclusively paying to support the Vermonter north of Springfield, although MA and CT are now chipping in for their share of the passengers north of New Haven.
I would think the deciding factor for Minnesota is how much it will cost in one time capital costs and continuing subsidy to operate a single daily train to Chicago. The trip times of the EB from CHI to the Twin Cities is already fairly good, so there is not a need for major track upgrades to get decent speeds. It comes down to how much CP will demand in track upgrades to add a second passenger train to the route? If it is not much or the state and CP can reach an agreement on a multi-year series of incremental upgrades for future service improvements that spreads the cost out while the new corridor service is running, then it won't cost MN much out of its annual budget. The state and the Twin Cities are spending a lot of money to add light rail lines and restore SPUD as a modern intermodal station. The cost of a single daily Twin Cities to Chicago corridor train should be small potatoes in comparison. The bigger cost may be in the rolling stock if MN wants to have the new corridor bi-level cars for the service. But there may be ways to pay for that.

As for first class seats, the corridor bi-level order includes a number of cars with business class seating. So substitute a business class ticket for the bet if you win.
Other states do lots of things that Minnesota doesn't do. I've been told, for instance, that other states allow you to buy liquor or a car on Sunday. Every year polls show that the vast majority of Minnesotans want to buy hootch on Sundays, and every year the bill to allow it goes down by something like 100 to 30 in the house.

The devil is, as usual, is in the details. Most of the costs of the light rail lines, and almost all of the SPUD restoration are paid for with federal funds, and they are facilities that are in Minnesota. If you can pay for a new train from St. Paul to Chicago with federal funds, no problem. If you expect state money, though, you're out of luck. Who are the advocates for intercity rail in the Minnesota Legislature? I sure haven't heard them.

Opponents, though, I can name. The heads of the house tax and the transportation committees are hostile to passenger rail. The latter, for instance, recently explained that commuter rail east of the Twin Cities is a non-starter. Why? The poor ridership on the North Star line shows that Minnesotans won't ride trains. I can assure, you, though, that there would be howls of opposition to wasting money on a choo-choo train (another phrase I've heard often from legislators) that stops in maybe three or four cities in Minnesota, especially since the Twin Cities already has frequent air and bus service to Chicago for which the state doesn't have to appropriate money.

The problem is that the DFL isn't interested in intercity rail, and the Republicans tend to be hostile. Without any ardent supporters, nothing happens. Look at the governor's bonding proposal, you'll see.... $2 million for grade crossings.

As for CP, I'd expect a very large bill for upgrades, given how much traffic they are moving both to and from the North Dakota oil patch. If you look at the Empire Builder OTP, CP's delays aren't much lower, proportionally, than BNSF's.
 
The poor ridership on the North Star line shows that Minnesotans won't ride trains.
Did you happen to see the 2013 ridership figures released this week by Metro Transit? To partially quote the Star Tribune article (http://www.startribune.com/local/241672341.html), "boardings on the Northstar Commuter line were up 12 percent compared to the previous year and were among the reasons Metro Transit saw an overall increase of 315,000 rides system wide, agency officials said...Customers took 787,239 rides, the highest ridership total since the line between Big Lake and Minneapolis began four year ago. Weekday ridership, the line's primary target, was up 17 percent."

As for CP, I'd expect a very large bill for upgrades, given how much traffic they are moving both to and from the North Dakota oil patch. If you look at the Empire Builder OTP, CP's delays aren't much lower, proportionally, than BNSF's.
Having been brought in to quickly turn around unsatisfying financial metrics, CP also has current President and CEO Hunter Harrison using the playbook he perfected during his past tenure as President of Canadian National. One hallmark is that as many individual trains as feasible shall be combined into a single super-long train approaching, or surpassing, two miles in length. So what if the length means the train is slower over the road (and thus more likely to delay Amtrak, the speediest traffic on the CP). Reducing costs by decreasing the overall number of people required to move traffic from endpoint-to-endpoint pleases the investors.
 
The poor ridership on the North Star line shows that Minnesotans won't ride trains.
Did you happen to see the 2013 ridership figures released this week by Metro Transit? To partially quote the Star Tribune article (http://www.startribune.com/local/241672341.html), "boardings on the Northstar Commuter line were up 12 percent compared to the previous year and were among the reasons Metro Transit saw an overall increase of 315,000 rides system wide, agency officials said...Customers took 787,239 rides, the highest ridership total since the line between Big Lake and Minneapolis began four year ago. Weekday ridership, the line's primary target, was up 17 percent."
It's worth noting that Metro Transit lowered weekday fares by up to a dollar each way for the Northstar, and has it priced the same as express buses where it competes against them. I imagine the fare change is a large reason for the growth, and I worry it isn't sustainable.

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Meanwhile, public rail in the US (unlike many other countries) is priced to be a way of subsidizing travel to those with disabilities or low incomes. Public busses (Greyhound is NOT a public bus!) are the same way, but politically easier to swallow. When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?
Every day in Los Angeles. The Orange Line in the San Fernando Valley seldom is not full.
 
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Meanwhile, public rail in the US (unlike many other countries) is priced to be a way of subsidizing travel to those with disabilities or low incomes. Public busses (Greyhound is NOT a public bus!) are the same way, but politically easier to swallow. When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?
Chicago, every day.
 
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That's good to know. I just know in Savannah, Albuquerque and Dallas, I've never seen a full bus. If they are running full in other cities, why doesn't private enterprise take it over?

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Regarding full buses, even if the buses were profitable (which they usually aren't), it would be a low-margin, capital-intensive business. If you have paid any attention to what's happened to private industry in this country, you'll realize that the "money men" have little or no interest in such businesses. Furthermore, people don't WANT a bunch of competing private bus companies with uncoordinated schedules and separate fares competing for bus stop access... this already happens in some cities and everyone hates it. Transportation is a natural monopoly and should therefore be run by a democratically-elected government.

As for the head of the transportation committee -- people with unreasoning hostility to passenger rail tend to make stupid decisions on all other transportation policy too. Eventually people get ticked off about this and the transportation committee chair gets replaced.
 
FWIW, the governor's bonding proposal has a miniscule transportation component period, consisting almost entirely of block grants to local governments, and not much of that either. I can't count that as indicative of transportation policy, except perhaps to indicate that the state government doesn't think transportation of any sort is particularly important right now.
 
Hunter Harrison at CP could certainly cause trouble. On the other hand, from his record at CN, he's the "stay for a few years, then run away before the government investigations catch up with the company" type of CEO, so that may be a *short-term* issue only...

I'm not saying Harrison was *all* bad at CN -- the "scheduled railroad" attempt was a good idea, contrasted with the "we run it when the train's full" approach which CP still uses for most freight trains -- but maintenance suffered, trains were derailing with toxic spills, etc... deferred maintenance is the easiest way to mismanage a railroad, and he did it.
 
Hunter Harrison at CP could certainly cause trouble. On the other hand, from his record at CN, he's the "stay for a few years, then run away before the government investigations catch up with the company" type of CEO, so that may be a *short-term* issue only...

I'm not saying Harrison was *all* bad at CN -- the "scheduled railroad" attempt was a good idea, contrasted with the "we run it when the train's full" approach which CP still uses for most freight trains -- but maintenance suffered, trains were derailing with toxic spills, etc... deferred maintenance is the easiest way to mismanage a railroad, and he did it.
Amen!! The employees at CN hated him, and I can say I know at least a few guys a CP that hate him too. He is the kind of guy that cares all about the $ and the stockholders. He is also the kind of guy that has illusions of "a good way to run a railroad" when in reality his methods are just not working. He cares nothing about safety of the citizens, like a toxic derailment in Calgary. It is these kind of people that SHOULD NOT be running a railroad, or any business for that matter.
 
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Hunter Harrison at CP could certainly cause trouble. On the other hand, from his record at CN, he's the "stay for a few years, then run away before the government investigations catch up with the company" type of CEO, so that may be a *short-term* issue only...

I'm not saying Harrison was *all* bad at CN -- the "scheduled railroad" attempt was a good idea, contrasted with the "we run it when the train's full" approach which CP still uses for most freight trains -- but maintenance suffered, trains were derailing with toxic spills, etc... deferred maintenance is the easiest way to mismanage a railroad, and he did it.
Amen!! The employees at CN hated him, and I can say I know at least a few guys a CP that hate him too. He is the kind of guy that cares all about the $ and the stockholders. He is also the kind of guy that has illusions of "a good way to run a railroad" when in reality his methods are just not working. He cares nothing about safety of the citizens, like a toxic derailment in Calgary. It is these kind of people that SHOULD NOT be running a railroad, or any business for that matter.
I've heard stories of how he was mostly hated and looked upon as a joke during his time with Burlington Northern in the 80s too but nevertheless mesmerized the executives enough to keep getting promoted. That is, until Gerald Grinstein became President and CEO and booted him out.
 
As for the head of the transportation committee -- people with unreasoning hostility to passenger rail tend to make stupid decisions on all other transportation policy too. Eventually people get ticked off about this and the transportation committee chair gets replaced.
But people who are favorable to rail also make stupid decisions and lose elections, like Congressman Oberstar. I've never seen any proof that Minnesotans in general, and those of Edina in particular, care about intercity rail, so I doubt he loses any sleep about it.

FWIW, the governor's bonding proposal has a miniscule transportation component period, consisting almost entirely of block grants to local governments, and not much of that either. I can't count that as indicative of transportation policy, except perhaps to indicate that the state government doesn't think transportation of any sort is particularly important right now.
What could possibly be more indicative of public policy that where the money is being spent? You want to see what Minnesota is doing, look at the budget and the bonding bill. The lack of any state bonding for the future southwest LRT line is a far more important indicator for the future of rail in the state, I think, than anything anyone has said. Money matters. Talk doesn't.

This is with a DFL-controlled legislature, mind you. In 2011, when the Republican controlled both houses, their proposed budget cut state funding of Metro Transit by 84% and completely eliminated the tiny passenger rail budget in MnDOT.

That's the political reality in Minnesota: politicians run the gamut from indifferent to hostile.

Obligatory SPUD news: Megabus is moving its St. Paul stop to Union Depot on Wednesday.
 
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I've never seen any proof that Minnesotans in general, and those of Edina in particular,
Edina seems particularly passenger-rail-hostile, being the home of the "Don't even talk about the Dan Patch corridor" law. That bit of extremism ticked off a number of other legislators, though. You don't have to lose your seat in the legislature to lose your *committee chairmanship*, which is what I expect will happen eventually; possibly simply to go to a different committee.
Unless Minnesota has a system which particularly entrenches committee chairmen, but I didn't think it did last I checked.
 
I've never seen any proof that Minnesotans in general, and those of Edina in particular,
Edina seems particularly passenger-rail-hostile, being the home of the "Don't even talk about the Dan Patch corridor" law. That bit of extremism ticked off a number of other legislators, though....
Who did it tick off? What did they do about it? The Dan Patch moratorium (Laws of Minnesota 2002, chapter 393, section 85) is still law, and its biggest supporters still chair the house tax and transportation committees. It's nice to have fantasies about pro-rail legislators, but that's not the reality. No one in the Minnesota state house is willing to work seriously for intercity passenger rail. The present crew are at best indifferent, and the other party is actively hostile.

It isn't as though the people are crying out for it, either.

Say, what happened to the January 27th announcement about Amtrak service to St. Paul Union Depot? Delayed again? What a surprise!
 
Asked SPUD on FB where's the announcement about the Empire Builder showing up..

Jay, As you may have heard BNSF, one of our partner railroads, has been challenged this winter with weather and other issues. In order for Amtrak to enter Union Depot, BNSF must complete some work. We were notified late last week that we would have more information from BNSF on February 10. We will post a notice here on Facebook, send media notices and let our train enthusiast friends know as soon as we do.
 
I've noticed that the new signals for the station tracks at the west end of the plant are now operational. They are easily visible from the Lafayette Bridge.
 
Who did it tick off? What did they do about it?
It ticked off the other DFL legislators south of the Twin Cities.
They passed a repeal in the Senate, and they introduced one in the House, which was sunk specifically by the jackass Edina chair of the House transportation committee. They intend to get it passed this year, and are collecting support.

The House transportation committee chair is making *enemies* in the legislature. He's not going to last forever. Eventually the conference is going to figure out how to toss him, and there is an active caucus organizing to do exactly that. It may take a few years.
 
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