How 'bout a Pantograph on the new Diners?

[Ryan]

a solution in search of a problem.

AU's official motto!

 

[MikefromCrete]

What are we talking about here: Silver Meteor, Silver Star (assuming the diner will be back in service after the "test"), Crescent and maybe the Cardinal. Probably not all are at Washington during meal time, so devising a complicated system for an engine change that takes about 15 minutes seems like overkill. Apparently it can be done, but certainly not worth the cost considering Amtrak's other needs.

 

[oldtimer]

When Amtrak converted its NEC rolling stock to HEP with the introduction of Amfleets, while it had no HEP locomotives. Amtrak regularly ran Amfleet trains with ex-Army Kitchen Cars converted to hotel power generator providing power to trains pulled by GG-1s. So this is not a new or unheard of concept and FRA is fine with such.

That was quite some time ago, and my understanding of the reasoning for the HEP limits on the Auto Train included not being able to run a generator car at the rear of the passenger section without putting a person in the car to shut off power if required.

49 CFR 238.445 says that you have to monitor HEP status and alert the operator to an unsafe condition so that they can take corrective action. While I'm sure you could rig something up for power generated somewhere other than the locomotive, it's just one more hurdle that makes doing something out this non-issue impractical.

Well of course my assumption is that when one designs such a thing they'd do something better than a half assed job. All that I am saying is I don't believe there is anything in any CFR that precludes a solution consistent with all rules involving an off locomotive source of hotel power. The issue with Auto Train is that no one is talking of rationally sitting down and designing such a system. What is being talked about is can we jury-rig something with what we have spending as little money as possible. that is a different question, and the answer appears to be obvious.

I can tell you from experience that the HEP generating cars were manned. Amtrak used mechanical employees that were not covered by the T&E hours of service law. It was long hours in a noisy, usually hot car sometimes riding on a metal folding chair. You were expected to monitor the crew radio (remember this was in the days that the operating railroad provided the crews) Keep the HEP operating and fix what ever the T&E crews would find that they disliked. The money was not great as you would not get overtime until you passed 40 hours per week. Oh what you did when you were young.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Recent advances with industrial grade lithium battery packs can provide useful levels of commercial power for extended periods. Enough to run modern kitchens and HVAC's in a size that could probably be accommodated within the profile of nearly any Amtrak rolling stock currently in use without losing functional floor space. That being said the cost of replacing Amtrak's antiquated HVAC's and protecting their high energy power sources from worst-case FRA litmus tests is potentially astronomical.

Reedited to be slightly less certain and a bit more realistic.

-DA

 

[Braniff747SP]

Now, why the cars weren't designed with a connection for ground power, I don't know -- that would be the sensical option that should have come from the factory, but I guess it's just another example of American railroad quirks.

Wait! I am still trying to figure out how one could possibly design a car that can be connected to power from the Engine but cannot be connected to ground power. After all the same HEP receptacle used for connecting the power from the loco can of course be used for connecting it to ground power, or as it is often called Shore Power.
The issue usually is lack of Shore Power connecting posts located at the right places at the station platforms, not that the cars cannot be connected to Shore Power.

That would make sense - then it's an infrastructure problem and not an equipment problem.

 

[jis]

The other issue of course is if the outage is for 10 minutes to unhook and engine and hook another one then it simply is not worth the trouble connecting to Shore Power, because effectively that actually would replace the one disconnection for ten minutes by two separate one for 7 minutes or some such, and extend the overall time needed to complete the whole operation. That is where having adequate on board battery power to cover those little gaps comes in. For some reason every railway in the world, except in the US seem to have figured this out and made accommodation for such.

 

[Eric S]

For some reason every railway in the world, except in the US seem to have figured this out and made accommodation for such.

It seems that in the passenger rail and rail transit world, American exceptionalism means everywhere except America.

 

[Peter KG6LSE]

some insight. Phase is a huge issue . Lets just say you have phase XYZ wired right *HEP it IS delta* . but the shore power is not in * sync* with the trains Loco. holy arc flash batman! .

IF I Was the EE in charge I would time lock the 60 Hz from the hotel shore power and sync to it then close some breakers .

then open them on the Loco side .

See the HEP freq on the old stuff iS tied to RPMs so with a slight tweak like in Real AC systems you can tickel the RPMs to get a device in to phase with another power grid . takes a few sec at best and can be automated with parts from what was once radioshack..

Heck scratch the idea of HEP and make it DC HEP . ABB has loads of cool white papers on * HVDC lite* . its not that hard to controll DC any more.

lights can be on DC as LEDs . only motors * really * need AC to run well so AC heatpump and some water pumps and you are golden .

every car has the needed inverters. If you need more power you just plug it in . Yes you need to match voltage but as its all Synth via inverters its easy to do that .

the inveter for a TESLA S is shoebox sized and can do around 150 kW ...... as a side benifet with switch mode stuff you have less need for HEAVY bulky iron core transformers ..

the gear on trains is such a Old way of doing things for the sake of compatability.

 

[cirdan]

An alternative place to add such would be in the baggage car. Indeed Indian Railways w...

Not just Indian railways. Spain's Talgos almost all have generator cars. At the time the talgos were first introduced not all locomotives had HEP provision. Also, those used on international services would have had to deal with different HEP voltages. Although most modern locomotives used on passenger trains do now have HEP, the practice of using generators has somehow persisted. It's probably a bit wasteful on fully electrified lines, but I guess the adbantage smust outweigh the disadvantages.

Incidentally, the Swiss Railways have used pantographs on their diners (Powered Restaurant Car) to provide hotel power. One thing they have going in their favor is their use of much lower voltage thus reducing the weight and space required f...

Not really that siginificant. From an engineering point of view, 16kV is not really more space saving than 25kV. Maybe on 25kV versus 15kV you need more space for insulation and air-strike distances, but the 16.7Hz of Switzerland leads to a larger transformer core so I guess it all balances out at the end of the day.

 

[cirdan]

Germany kitchen cars had there own pantograph due the load need to run the kitchen. On shorter trains they were not need. My understand is someone got the electrical needs under control, so it was only a short timeframe that you could see them on trains. Of course today your hard press to find a dinning car....

I have never actually heard of them running outside stations with raised pantographs. The pantograph was used to provide power for the restaurant during switching or while a trains was waiting in a station without a locomotive. I don't think the design of the pantograph is suitable for high speeds. Its a low cost pantograph.

 

[VentureForth]

Germany kitchen cars had there own pantograph due the load need to run the kitchen. On shorter trains they were not need. My understand is someone got the electrical needs under control, so it was only a short timeframe that you could see them on trains. Of course today your hard press to find a dinning car....

I have never actually heard of them running outside stations with raised pantographs. The pantograph was used to provide power for the restaurant during switching or while a trains was waiting in a station without a locomotive. I don't think the design of the pantograph is suitable for high speeds. Its a low cost pantograph.

That is exactly the scenario that prompted my OP.

 

[jis]

The problem in US though is there is exactly one station where there is catenary and trains with dining cars run through and change engines there. To accommodate that one single case for 3 trains a day there is absolutely no justification for setting up the amount of equipment, infrastructure and maintenance needed. So sorry, it is not justifiable and it will not happen. There will be no difference to the outcome no matter how long this thread gets beating this horse to death.

The logical way going forward is to put sufficient batteries in passenger carrying cars so that they can supply power for lighting and perhaps limited HVAC for a reasonable period of time when HEP is absent, and just leave it at that. That is how most of the world operates. No reason US could not. As mentioned before, it is kind of surprising that it was not done that way with the Amfleet and Superliners already, specially for just providing full lighting, instead of just emergency lights.

 

[VentureForth]

And with today's low power lighting that is available, the potential is much higher to accommodate that. I don't disagree with your ideas - the previous post is what I envisioned when I started the thread. I perfectly understand that it isn't the best solution out there, and I also think that the problem is more than "nonexistent".

Thanks to all!

 

[Ryan]

We're talking about a 10 minute operation at one station for three trains a day, not all of which call at WAS during mealtimes.

Perhaps "utterly insignificant" would have been a better choice of words. It's not something that is worth spending millions of dollars to "fix".

 

[jis]

OTOH, I think finding a general solution that lets individual cars continue to be powered by battery while HEP is off is a very laudable goal to try to achieve. As long as the proposed solution does not depend on pantographs and catenaries, I think all passengers will be grateful for such. Such a solution would be applicable all across the country even while shunting things around in San Antonio and Albany and what have you. So in that sense the general problem I think is significant and it is just the general disdain for passenger comfort that seems to still live in the US passenger railroad psyche among some that might cause folks to ignore such minor things.

If airlines ran with this attitude, they'd simply switch of A/C while the plane was on the ground, and turn it on only when engines started turning, and the only lights available while boarding and disembarking would be the emergency lighting in the cabin. So it is reasonable to expect the railroads to be at least as good as the airlines.

 

[cirdan]

The problem in US though is there is exactly one station where there is catenary and trains with dining cars run through and change engines there. To accommodate that one single case for 3 trains a day there is absolutely no justification for setting u

Isn't this a question of perspective.

You can call it three trains a day, which doesn't sound like much.

You can also say 100% of LD trains that use single level equipment, which actually sounds impressive.

 

[cirdan]

If airlines ran with this attitude, they'd simply switch of A/C while the plane was on the ground, and turn it on only when engines started turning, and the only lights available while boarding and disembarking would be the emergency lighting in the cabin. So it is reasonable to expect the railroads to be at least as good as the airlines.

That's not really a fair comparison as its difficult to ventilate an aircraft naturally. If you switched off HVAC you would soon have air quality problems. In many other respects, the airlines do not display much more respect for the customer than the railroads do. One that always gets me is that business class passengers board first. Here you have your best paying customers and what do you do to them? You call them to the gate ahead of the other passengers, robbing them of say, shopping opportunities, and then make them sit down and wait while the coach passengers are marched through their part of the plane as if they're some sort of a freak attraction to be oogled at. If I was an airline I'd show those folks some respect by boarding them last of all so they minimize their time on the plane, have some privacy and aren't necessarily put on display in this manner. At least Amtrak doesn't march its coach passengers through the sleeping cars while boarding at CUS so in some respects Amtrak is still infinitely better than the airlines.

 

[Ryan]

OTOH, I think finding a general solution that lets individual cars continue to be powered by battery while HEP is off is a very laudable goal to try to achieve.

Absolutely, within reason. As lights go LED, more of the in car lighting can run off of the batteries. Pumps for pressure water systems and waste disposal would be nice. I don't see a world where HVAC will be able to be run off of the battery for any length of time. The cars should be well insulated enough to maintain temperature for the few minutes that it takes to change the power.

 

[VentureForth]

That's not really a fair comparison as its difficult to ventilate an aircraft naturally. If you switched off HVAC you would soon have air quality problems. In many other respects, the airlines do not display much more respect for the customer than the railroads do. One that always gets me is that business class passengers board first. Here you have your best paying customers and what do you do to them? You call them to the gate ahead of the other passengers, robbing them of say, shopping opportunities, and then make them sit down and wait while the coach passengers are marched through their part of the plane as if they're some sort of a freak attraction to be oogled at. If I was an airline I'd show those folks some respect by boarding them last of all so they minimize their time on the plane, have some privacy and aren't necessarily put on display in this manner. At least Amtrak doesn't march its coach passengers through the sleeping cars while boarding at CUS so in some respects Amtrak is still infinitely better than the airlines.

I disagree. Business class passengers also help keep the plane balanced so that it doesn't tip back on its tail which, though remote, has happened. Mustn't load pax aft end first. You can take that how you wanna.

 

[VentureForth]

OTOH, I think finding a general solution that lets individual cars continue to be powered by battery while HEP is off is a very laudable goal to try to achieve.

Absolutely, within reason. As lights go LED, more of the in car lighting can run off of the batteries. Pumps for pressure water systems and waste disposal would be nice. I don't see a world where HVAC will be able to be run off of the battery for any length of time. The cars should be well insulated enough to maintain temperature for the few minutes that it takes to change the power.

It is comical how you you are so quick to call my ideas stupid without offering any ideas of your own, and then agree with jis even though we're on the same side of the ideological premis, albeit to much varied magnitude. So, now that you can agree with jis, why couldn't they have had this in their minds when designing and building the VLII's?

 

[Ryan]

I wasn't aware that this was a team sport.

I also didn't call your ideas stupid.

I also offered an idea of my own. It's called "be patient, the world won't end if the diner is closed for a few minutes".

There is a bit of a difference between building in the ability to operate some onboard systems off of battery for a short period of time, and adding a few thousand pounds of extra gear that gets used for 10 minutes out of a trip measured in days. I'm sorry that you're so blinded by whatever personal beef you have that you can't see that difference.

I'm not sure what your personal problem is with me, but it's getting old, and I'm not interested in engaging in it. If you want to talk trains, that's awesome. If you want to get into a personal sniping match, find another partner. You were already reminded once today to play nice.

 

[afigg]

The problem in US though is there is exactly one station where there is catenary and trains with dining cars run through and change engines there. To accommodate that one single case for 3 trains a day there is absolutely no justification for setting u

Isn't this a question of perspective.

You can call it three trains a day, which doesn't sound like much.

You can also say 100% of LD trains that use single level equipment, which actually sounds impressive.

You are overlooking the LSL. Not all LD trains that use single level equipment go through WAS. 4 out of 5 do when the Cardinal is included, but that is not 100%, If the Three Rivers/Broadway Limited is ever restored, then there would be a single level LD train that has an engine swap at PHL. If the CONO is converted to single level equipment, a catenary hookup in its diner would be totally useless.

 

[afigg]

It is comical how you you are so quick to call my ideas stupid without offering any ideas of your own, and then agree with jis even though we're on the same side of the ideological premis, albeit to much varied magnitude. So, now that you can agree with jis, why couldn't they have had this in their minds when designing and building the VLII's?

How do you know what the battery backup capability of the new Viewliner diners and sleeper cars are? With new low power lighting, they may have designed in an improved battery backup that keeps the lights on, ventilation fans running, with a built-in UPS for the new POS & WiFi systems in the diner cars.

 

[Ryan]

You are overlooking the LSL. Not all LD trains that use single level equipment go through WAS. 4 out of 5 do when the Cardinal is included, but that is not 100%, If the Three Rivers/Broadway Limited is ever restored, then there would be a single level LD train that has an engine swap at PHL. If the CONO is converted to single level equipment, a catenary hookup in its diner would be totally useless.

Doesn't the LSL swap power at Albany? No catenary there, so a dining car pantograph (or third rail shoe) wouldn't be terribly useful, but a car with more services available on the battery would be.

 

[afigg]

Doesn't the LSL swap power at Albany? No catenary there, so a dining car pantograph (or third rail shoe) wouldn't be terribly useful, but a car with more services available on the battery would be.

AFAIK, the LSL does indeed almost always switches (diesel) locomotives at Albany. But I was commenting on the "100%" of single level LD trains go through WAS. I think we are coming to some sort of consensus that the solution to shutting the whole diner or food service cars down is a more capable battery backup schemewhich provides utility across all the eastern single level routes, not just at WAS (or ALB). Which may be coming to some extent with the new Viewliner IIs for all we know.
The bottom line is that a special catenary hookup or, for that matter, a 3rd rail hookup for a diner car to keep it powered up for 10-15 minutes during an engine swap would seriously fail any reasonable cost-benefit or ROI analysis given the limited miles of catenary and 3rd rail powered rail lines in the US.