Glacier National Park by the Empire Builder

[Willbridge]

Oh, I think the Pioneer is a possibility...and it would certainly make my life easier and more interesting.
But I just wanted to show how the settlement pattern is different in Eastern Oregon and Washington. Especially for rail enthusiasts (and other people) whose main experience is east of the Mississippi, someone might hear about "rural Oregon", and they are going to picture it like places on the Crescent or City of New Orleans or even the Empire Builder between Minnesota and Chicago...basically, places where "rural" means a town of 10,000 people every 20 miles. So this video hopefully shows what it looks like when there is a town of 500 people every 50 miles. A quite different scenario.
Although, it is possible that this actually makes it better for rail---in the Great Basin and Rocky Mountains, often times people actually live more concentrated, with uninhabited areas in-between, rather than smeared out in little towns.

The concentration in western towns has been studied by geographers as an interesting phenomenon. There is another factor less known, but important for rail or bus demand: people travel further for services. When the number of passenger-miles is considered, rather than boardings, you get a different picture than the usual.

One clue is the broadcast coverage areas for sports:

https://www.denverbroncos.com/news/broncos-radio-network

 

[JayPea]

I certainly agree that the gorge is beautiful and i'd love to take the train to Spokane if it didn't arrive and leave there in the middle of the night.

I live an hour from Spokane and have always said the drive to and from the Spokane Amtrak station is the worst part of the trip. At those hours, one has to be on the constant look out for deer, moose, and other assorted crawling nocturnal creatures. Early Tuesday I get to make that trip again as I am going from Spokane to Portland, then up to Seattle. I've worked the graveyard shift at my place of employment for 25 years, so I am used to being wide awake in the middle of the night, which works to my advantage.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I live an hour from Spokane and have always said the drive to and from the Spokane Amtrak station is the worst part of the trip. At those hours, one has to be on the constant look out for deer, moose, and other assorted crawling nocturnal creatures. Early Tuesday I get to make that trip again as I am going from Spokane to Portland, then up to Seattle. I've worked the graveyard shift at my place of employment for 25 years, so I am used to being wide awake in the middle of the night, which works to my advantage.

An intermediate distance train that would follow the Empire Builder's route between Portland/Seattle and Spokane seems like a very easy obvious thing for Amtrak, and the state DOT to pursue.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

An intermediate distance train that would follow the Empire Builder's route between Portland/Seattle and Spokane seems like a very easy obvious thing for Amtrak, and the state DOT to pursue.

One that went in the daylight from Spokane to Seattle by way of Pasco and Yakima seems like a better choice, although that wouldn't help me that much if I had to go to Seattle or thereabouts to catch it.

 

[Willbridge]

Through the 1950's, just what you are discussing was offered:

• The daylight SEA<>SPK Cascadian on the GN. My folks rode it in a memorable winter trip.
• A daylight NP train SEA<>PSC<>SPK.
• A PSC<>PDX connection with the NP on the SP&S, the Columbia River Express. The rear coach had observation windows; customers could reserve seats in that car for an extra charge.

Here's the SP&S train, a photo used for several years after it was discontinued.



Train 5 at Vancouver, WA.



Note: under pressure from the Washington congressional delegation, Amtrak ran a daily, daylight train on the Stevens Pass line for the Spokane World's Fair. That line was otherwise served by the daily North Coast Hiawatha. The UP ran a weekly daylight PDX<>SPK train for VIP's for the fair.

[Corrected.]

 

[railiner]

Just took a look at the "Expo 74" train. Westbound, the three daily schedules were spaced fairly nicely...not so much eastbound...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_'74_(train)
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19740519&item=0049

 

[Willbridge]

For ODOT I floated the idea of a SEA<>PDX<>SPK train that would have absorbed the pair of pool line trains that were later part of the Pioneer. It would have run on the UP and would have only required one train-set. It would have connected with the Coast Starlight for California points. Instead, the SEA<>SPK train, requiring two train-sets, was offered. I was told unofficially that it was a congressional matter.

The effort was not wasted, however, as the information circulated and led indirectly to the Portland/California section of the Empire Builder.

 

[Rasputin]

My impression is that the Cascadian and other daytime Spokane - Seattle and Portland trains were discontinued because of poor ridership. Is that supported by the data? And is there any indication that a revival of that service would do better today?

I am not advocating one way or the other - just asking.

 

[Northwestern]

From this map, I noticed that the Spokane, Portland, & Seattle once went as far south as Bend, Eugene, and Cascadia Oregon. Were these branches for freight only, or did they once carry passengers?

https://is.gd/wJSdqR

 

[zephyr17]

From this map, I noticed that the Spokane, Portland, & Seattle once went as far south as Bend, Eugene, and Cascadia Oregon. Were these branches for freight only, or did they once carry passengers?

https://is.gd/wJSdqR

They had trackage rights over the Oregon Trunk and Oregon Electric. All three were under the same ownership. SP&S didn't run their own passenger trains on those lines, but OT and OER had their own. OER started life as a Portland-Eugene interurban.

I think passenger service lasted on the OT to Bend right up until Amtrak or very close to it. Of course, it was all BN by then.

Most of those lines still exist, the OT under BN ownership, what remains of the OER under shortlines, IIRC. The former OT is an integral part of BN's Inside Gateway.

 

[Willbridge]

My impression is that the Cascadian and other daytime Spokane - Seattle and Portland trains were discontinued because of poor ridership. Is that supported by the data? And is there any indication that a revival of that service would do better today?

I am not advocating one way or the other - just asking.

All three of them were impacted by highway improvements and regional air travel. That not only affected ridership, but also cut into express shipments.

 

[Willbridge]

They had trackage rights over the Oregon Trunk and Oregon Electric. All three were under the same ownership. SP&S didn't run their own passenger trains on those lines, but OT and OER had their own. OER started life as a Portland-Eugene interurban.

I think passenger service lasted on the OT to Bend right up until Amtrak or very close to it. Of course, it was all BN by then.

Most of those lines still exist, the OT under BN ownership, what remains of the OER under shortlines, IIRC. The former OT is an integral part of BN's Inside Gateway.

I think that the Oregon Trunk Mixed ran till Amtrak. Something I kept meaning to do was to ride it from Portland to Bend (it connected from Train 4) and then return on a rail ticket honored on Pacific Trailways.

The Oregon Electric was a Class II railway after the interurban category was dropped. To further confuse the definitions, the branch from Albany into the Cascades was never electrified. All parts of the OE that survived into the 1960s were popular for excursion trains. I did get to ride all of those lines.

Coming back to the thread, the concept of corridor rail and bus service that Matthew used between Portland and Albany originated with the Oregon Electric Railway. He would have had to walk over to the North Bank Station at NW 10th & Hoyt to make the connection. Business-oriented writers tend to conclude that the OE was not very successful in its own right but contributed to the long-haul traffic of the parent Hill lines.

The subsidiaries were integrated with the parent SP&S, as this 1916 ad shows:

 

[JayPea]

One that went in the daylight from Spokane to Seattle by way of Pasco and Yakima seems like a better choice, although that wouldn't help me that much if I had to go to Seattle or thereabouts to catch it.

There has been one of those "studies," the kind that lead to nothing about that very proposal. I hope it leads to something positive but I'm not holding my breath. Blue doesn't look good on me.

 

[Bonser]

I think most of those Eastern Oregon towns are bigger than they used to be, including Pendleton and the Dalles. And Boise is what 3/4 million now? so I think there is enough population and potential demand to warrant a revived PDX to Salt Lake (or just Ogden?) run, and maybe across WY to Cheyenne too? If SLC had service to PDX via Boise and to LS via LV as well as its existing Chicago to Oakland via Denver service, it would be quite a hub and that might go a ways towards broadening support for the system.

But there's not enough cars to put together a consist.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

All three of them were impacted by highway improvements and regional air travel. That not only affected ridership, but also cut into express shipments.

And as I talked about in the Willamette Valley thread, a lot of that growth in air travel have been illusory, because it is only between hub cities, and flying between, say, Eugene and Pasco is not competitive with how that train journey would be---but the train trip is only offered once a day.
There are a lot of trips that even someone who likes to drive wouldn't want to drive---for example, Centralia to Wenatchee, which would start to get expensive and difficult. So I imagine there would be a market for a trip like that, if it was possible to get into Wenatchee in the morning and not at night. In the most part, people in Western Washington and Oregon just don't consider those trips. In this case, I think the demand isn't there, because the supply isn't there.
(I also know that I am preaching to the choir here)
It is also interesting that this entire discussion shows just how diverse rail travel is, and how different groups of people might use the same line for very different reasons. I took the Empire Builder for an epic trip to the roof of the continent---but there are lots more people who might use it to do weekly or semi-weekly business or family trips.