freight railroads taking Amtrak back?

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An idea I've heard proposed by some online from time to time is that Amtrak should be returned to the freight railroads. Apparently some think they would be willing to take back responsibility for operating the passenger trains if they were subsidized to do so. Is there any possibility of this ever actually happening?
 
I suppose that anything is possible, but I'm not sure that it would be a good thing.

First, you'd loose the ability to book one trip across the country easily, unless provisions are made to keep Amtrak at least at the ticketing level. Next, it could lead to more transfers, again unless some entity retains control of the equipment and leases it out to the RR's or something like that. Next you need to change crews everytime you cross to an new RR. And then there is the issue of trains that don't stay on one companies tracks.

Finally, what do you do if one freight Co opts out? Run no service in that area? Keep Amtrak for that area?
 
I suppose that anything is possible, but I'm not sure that it would be a good thing.
First, you'd loose the ability to book one trip across the country easily, unless provisions are made to keep Amtrak at least at the ticketing level. Next, it could lead to more transfers, again unless some entity retains control of the equipment and leases it out to the RR's or something like that. Next you need to change crews everytime you cross to an new RR. And then there is the issue of trains that don't stay on one companies tracks.

Finally, what do you do if one freight Co opts out? Run no service in that area? Keep Amtrak for that area?
This is not exactly on the same wave lenght but it does bring up a question I've often wondered about. How were coast to coast reservation made when one had to use multiple RR compaines for the trip? Did one company make all the arrangements?
 
I suppose that anything is possible, but I'm not sure that it would be a good thing.
First, you'd loose the ability to book one trip across the country easily, unless provisions are made to keep Amtrak at least at the ticketing level. Next, it could lead to more transfers, again unless some entity retains control of the equipment and leases it out to the RR's or something like that. Next you need to change crews everytime you cross to an new RR. And then there is the issue of trains that don't stay on one companies tracks.

Finally, what do you do if one freight Co opts out? Run no service in that area? Keep Amtrak for that area?
This is not exactly on the same wave lenght but it does bring up a question I've often wondered about. How were coast to coast reservation made when one had to use multiple RR compaines for the trip? Did one company make all the arrangements?
Yes of course they did. You didn't have to go from one railroad to another buying separate tickets. They all worked together.
 
I suppose that anything is possible, but I'm not sure that it would be a good thing.
First, you'd loose the ability to book one trip across the country easily, unless provisions are made to keep Amtrak at least at the ticketing level. Next, it could lead to more transfers, again unless some entity retains control of the equipment and leases it out to the RR's or something like that. Next you need to change crews everytime you cross to an new RR. And then there is the issue of trains that don't stay on one companies tracks.

Finally, what do you do if one freight Co opts out? Run no service in that area? Keep Amtrak for that area?
This is not exactly on the same wave lenght but it does bring up a question I've often wondered about. How were coast to coast reservation made when one had to use multiple RR compaines for the trip? Did one company make all the arrangements?
I lived in Chattanooga. My sister lived in San Francisco. I would go down to the station or city ticket office in some cities (no Julie, no 800 numbers) and gave my order to a living human being. I would make my reservations to leave on L&N's Georgian.At Evansville it would become a C&EI train to Chicago. In Chicago I would change trains and stations to the California Zephyr and would ride it to the coast. It was a Burlington train Chicago to Denver, then D&RG to SLC and then Western Pacifc to SF.

The only reservation he could make for me on the spot was from Chattanooga to Chicago. He would have to wire ahead to Chicago for Chicago to SF;wire to SF for SF to Chicago and finally wire to Chicago for Chicago to Chattanooga.It could take a week or two to hear back from all of them. I doubt that satisfying "fat little Billy Haithcoat" was a prioriy in the hallowed halls of CUS.

My railfare ticket stubs would show this:

Chattanooga to Evansville L&N

Evansville to Chicago C&EI

Paramlee (bus cab, van,etc) transfer service between stations in Chicago(Dearborn to Union)

Chicago to Denver Burlington

Denver to Salt Lake City D&RG

SLC to Oakland (instead of Emervyille as it is today) Western Pacific

bus from Oakland to SF proper(as is done today)

then for the return the same stubs in reverse order.

FInally, there would be four slips of paper showing the pullman space:

Chattanooga to Chicago

Chicago to Sf(or Oakland,strictly speaking)

SF(Oakland) to Chicago

Chicago to Chattanooga

Wait, there is more. If you were in coach, normally they would get each ticket as your interline(if it was and many were) train changed railroads. In the above example, that means at about 3 a.m. in Evansville they would go through the coaches waking people up to get the C&EI ticket.

Sleeping car passengers did not have to face that.When you were put in your room they took all tickets that they woud need until you physically changed trains.

As for a coach passenger on the CZ, it was unique in that they collected all tickets when you boarded that they would need to the rest of that specific trains journey. On that particular train they did not disturb coach passengers every time the train moved from the tracks of one operator to those of another. But on most they did disturb you.

Many of you know of the Santa Fe RR. It had huge trackage and most if not all of its trains were self-contained within its track, thus it advertised "Santa Fe all the way". I guess the only interline work it had with other railroads was in transcontinental sleepers to NYC and such places. Of course in that case everything would be collected from the passenger as they boarded--I guess--I never rode in one.
 
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What if Amtrak acted like a new "Pullman" who handles the pasenger end for the frieght line?
 
The chances of this are slight. I don't think the freights want them, and they'd rather deal with Amtrak than a potpourri of individual transportation companies, ala the UK.
 
I would love to see Norfolk and Southern take the Crescent again and I think it would be the only class 1 to even think about it.
 
I also suspect that you'd have a major outcry about subsidizing a private company, far worse than what we get with Amtrak right now.

I can't believe how many people believe that CSX is getting a huge public subsidy in Florida with the Orlando commuter rail deal. People are hopping mad that CSX is getting a $1.2 Billion dollar subsidy, even though that is so far from the truth.
 
Many people have forgotten the reason Amtrak was formed which was to take over passenger trains that freight railroads did not want to operate. If Amtrak had not been formed and things had remained status quo, most of the long distance trains would have been gone in 5 to 10 years. Penn Central had already petitioned the Interstate Commerce Commission to discontinue all trains west of Buffalo and Pittsburgh. If you look at the first map of Amtrak, there were no trains operating on the Union Pacific Railroad of that era because UP was politically connected enough to keep the trains off its lines even though they still had a number of trains just prior to Amtrak. In the early days of Amtrak, the operating crews such as Engineers, Conductors etc all worked for the railroad on which the trains operated. The railroads had no problem with those employees becoming Amtrak employees. Those who think the private railroads want to operate passenger trains other than company specials are misinformed.
 
In the five or so years before Amtrak, the various railroads were so anxious to get rid of their passenger services that they took out their frustrations directly on the passengers, who it was presumed, would complain to the government or simply go away. The service was so bad that it turned off some people permanently. Some of my long distance train trips in the late 1960s were, well, unbelievable in their awfulness: late, no food, no facilities for food, no heat, no water, no facilities for water, and really filthy toilets. The railroads were trying to scare the passengers away. A return to the freight railroads, even with subsidies, would expose all of us to this latent, anti-customer attitude that has always lurked in the heart of the railroads.
 
An idea I've heard proposed by some online from time to time is that Amtrak should be returned to the freight railroads. Apparently some think they would be willing to take back responsibility for operating the passenger trains if they were subsidized to do so. Is there any possibility of this ever actually happening?
The problem with this is I remember my grandmother talking about going from Houston to Spartenburg, she would go Houston to New Orleans and then take a cab cross town to the other train station and continue the trip. This was how the term "union station" came in was multi train lines came together.
 
Why not take a middle approach: turn the operation side of the LD trains over to freight RR crews. Not the service people, the train ops. That is how Amtrak worked in the early days. Amtrak paid the RR's to run the trains. It would sure make getting relief crews in Winslow AZ or Whitefish MT a whole lot easier if you could pull from the entire railroad pool, not just the handful of Amtrak folks.

And, there is precedent for that sort of thing. The Postal Service used to use their own trucks and their own drivers for mail transport. No longer. Almost all land mail movement, other than local delivery, is by private haulers.
 
Why not take a middle approach: turn the operation side of the LD trains over to freight RR crews. Not the service people, the train ops. That is how Amtrak worked in the early days. Amtrak paid the RR's to run the trains. It would sure make getting relief crews in Winslow AZ or Whitefish MT a whole lot easier if you could pull from the entire railroad pool, not just the handful of Amtrak folks.
And, there is precedent for that sort of thing. The Postal Service used to use their own trucks and their own drivers for mail transport. No longer. Almost all land mail movement, other than local delivery, is by private haulers.
Yes, and let's see NS and CSX argue on how they treat the CL when it crosses tracks.... :blink:
 
Why not take a middle approach: turn the operation side of the LD trains over to freight RR crews. Not the service people, the train ops. That is how Amtrak worked in the early days. Amtrak paid the RR's to run the trains. It would sure make getting relief crews in Winslow AZ or Whitefish MT a whole lot easier if you could pull from the entire railroad pool, not just the handful of Amtrak folks.
And, there is precedent for that sort of thing. The Postal Service used to use their own trucks and their own drivers for mail transport. No longer. Almost all land mail movement, other than local delivery, is by private haulers.
Yes, and let's see NS and CSX argue on how they treat the CL when it crosses tracks.... :blink:
This also requires those railroads to purchase passenger carrying locomotives.
 
You mean different locomotives do different work (sounding dumb).

I know an Amtrak loco can't haul freight due to the weight but I thought...and have seen...a freight loco haul an Amtrak train.
 
You mean different locomotives do different work (sounding dumb).I know an Amtrak loco can't haul freight due to the weight but I thought...and have seen...a freight loco haul an Amtrak train.
Freight locos aren't equipped to provide the necessary HEP to passenger cars.
 
You mean different locomotives do different work (sounding dumb).I know an Amtrak loco can't haul freight due to the weight but I thought...and have seen...a freight loco haul an Amtrak train.
The biggest difference is in the gearing, freight locos are geared for 75mph or less and passenger diesels are geared for 110mph in most cases, the faster speeds rob traction and acceleration. So in simple terms any locomotive can be re-geared to make it pull freight or passengers or find a middle ground and be mediocre with both. Weight is also a difference most passenger locos are lighter so they handle better at higher speeds, and freight locos are heavier to get more traction. As for HEP any loco can have a kit installed to provide HEP.
 
Its very romantic to think about individual railroads with exciting train sets that would offer the rider a real feel for individual consist where the "Name" might really mean something again.

I just got an old set of Popular Mechanics or Science and in 1949 they have an issue about the Twenty Century Limiteds new train sets. What wonderful designs, would make Amtrak look like a very cheap hotel or fast food joint. Those were great times when railroads tried to out do each other and provide super service and opulent surroundings and food. Unfortunately the airlines caused that to all come to a screeching halt in a very few short years. While the idea of perhaps truly "name" trains might seem tempting, as others have mentioned, most freight railroads decided they wanted nothing to do with passengers and treated you worse than cattle in many cases. And while I complain about real issues with Amtrak here, I realize that without them most likely no passenger service would exist. Other than the Santa Fe I really can't think of any railroad that upheld their standards until the end. Perhaps they again would take it on with some sense of pride, but I would be quite surprised.

Besides the issues that most railroads wouldn't want to provide the service or equipment you have the issues mentioned of Stations, and who maintains them, pays for station agents, clerks, ticket processing, ect. Its not as simple as it sounds. It sounds good from a 1940s perspective but reality set in shortly afterwards and I think there is no going back.
 
In the five or so years before Amtrak, the various railroads were so anxious to get rid of their passenger services that they took out their frustrations directly on the passengers, who it was presumed, would complain to the government or simply go away. The service was so bad that it turned off some people permanently. Some of my long distance train trips in the late 1960s were, well, unbelievable in their awfulness: late, no food, no facilities for food, no heat, no water, no facilities for water, and really filthy toilets. The railroads were trying to scare the passengers away. A return to the freight railroads, even with subsidies, would expose all of us to this latent, anti-customer attitude that has always lurked in the heart of the railroads.
the ultimate poster child of that era had to have been the PC "Buffalo day express" express it wasn't but it was "all day" and they had no on board food service of any kind, if you didn't bring your own you starved.... schedule was filed in the library under "fiction"

Bob
 
Why not take a middle approach: turn the operation side of the LD trains over to freight RR crews. Not the service people, the train ops. That is how Amtrak worked in the early days. Amtrak paid the RR's to run the trains. It would sure make getting relief crews in Winslow AZ or Whitefish MT a whole lot easier if you could pull from the entire railroad pool, not just the handful of Amtrak folks.
And, there is precedent for that sort of thing. The Postal Service used to use their own trucks and their own drivers for mail transport. No longer. Almost all land mail movement, other than local delivery, is by private haulers.
Yes, and let's see NS and CSX argue on how they treat the CL when it crosses tracks.... :blink:
And I imagine there are even fewer available Buckingham Branch engineers than Amtrak engineers...
 
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