danasgoodstuff
OBS Chief
I think they meant #2, but there's lots of interesting routing there that I for one would never have thought of.
FRA Long Distance Service Study discussion
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Seaboarder3023
Train Attendant
Screen grab.
As a Chicagoan, I can't help notice that if this comes to fruition as planned, various direct trips would be possible -- for instance, Denver to Houston, Indianapolis to Philadelphia -- that Chicago doesn't get without a change of trains.
I don't begrudge *any* of these proposed routes, as the FRA's marching orders were to serve underserved places and connect unconnected places. They've done that quite admirably.
But just because Chicago is a key hub of the existing system doesn't mean its long-distance service is beyond improvement. Two that leap to mind:
*Chicago-NYC via Pittsburgh & Philadelphia directly, without changing at Pittsburgh. Via either Cleveland or a new route via Columbus, or both if we're really goin' to town.
*Chicago to Texas via Oklahoma City, whether via St. Louis & Tulsa, or Kansas City & Wichita, or both if we're going hog-wild. Maybe branching at Ft. Worth with sections to San Antonio & Houston.
I don't begrudge *any* of these proposed routes, as the FRA's marching orders were to serve underserved places and connect unconnected places. They've done that quite admirably.
But just because Chicago is a key hub of the existing system doesn't mean its long-distance service is beyond improvement. Two that leap to mind:
*Chicago-NYC via Pittsburgh & Philadelphia directly, without changing at Pittsburgh. Via either Cleveland or a new route via Columbus, or both if we're really goin' to town.
*Chicago to Texas via Oklahoma City, whether via St. Louis & Tulsa, or Kansas City & Wichita, or both if we're going hog-wild. Maybe branching at Ft. Worth with sections to San Antonio & Houston.
After reading it with attention focused on lines west, the prize for unlikely routings should go to the Denver<>Rapid City<>Twin Cities route. Abandonments have Balkanized the area and on the east end of South Dakota it was too easy to build track, so everyone in the 19th century did just that.
I'm open to corrections, but here's what it seems to be made of:
From Denver via Fort Collins to Cheyenne on former Colorado & Southern. [ColoRail may propose running this line via Greeley on former Denver Pacific.]
Cheyenne to Sidney on UP Main Line.
Sidney to Crawford on former Burlington.
Crawford to Wolsey via Rapid City and Pierre on former North Western.
Wolsey to Mitchell on former Milwaukee Road.
Mitchell to Sioux Falls via Canton on former Milwaukee Road.
Sioux Falls to Twin Cities on former Great Northern.
Several of the junctions would require construction to permit head-on movements.
Competing DEN<>MSP travel could include the Denver<>Billings<>Twin Cities routing and the Denver<>Omaha<>Twin Cities routing. Those are traditional. and were available into the 1960's.
I'm open to corrections, but here's what it seems to be made of:
From Denver via Fort Collins to Cheyenne on former Colorado & Southern. [ColoRail may propose running this line via Greeley on former Denver Pacific.]
Cheyenne to Sidney on UP Main Line.
Sidney to Crawford on former Burlington.
Crawford to Wolsey via Rapid City and Pierre on former North Western.
Wolsey to Mitchell on former Milwaukee Road.
Mitchell to Sioux Falls via Canton on former Milwaukee Road.
Sioux Falls to Twin Cities on former Great Northern.
Several of the junctions would require construction to permit head-on movements.
Competing DEN<>MSP travel could include the Denver<>Billings<>Twin Cities routing and the Denver<>Omaha<>Twin Cities routing. Those are traditional. and were available into the 1960's.
Indianapolis to Philadelphia doesn’t require a change of trains 3 days of the week.
Looks great. It certainly would be nice to go from NYP/PHL to TX without going through Chicago and a way to get to Rapid City, SD (Mt Rushmore) from Denver, CO. It also looks like there may be a stop at Yellowstone National park once again. Many new major city locations have been planned. Can't wait to see this happen but it may take years and years to implement.
And I think under this plan the Cardinal would go daily?Indianapolis to Philadelphia doesn’t require a change of trains 3 days of the week.
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Unless I missed it, I did not see anyone bring up either diverting or splitting the Cardinal with a St Louis section.
Sorry, but this is the biggest “pipe dream” I have seen on this forum yet…
I know, but was pointing out that there is already a direct connect from Indianapolis to Philadelphia
Yes, and Chicago-Philly direct exists now too. But the Cardinal is significantly longer (albeit more scenic and serving other markets along the way) than a direct route via Pittsburgh, which is what the FRA is suggesting for Indy-Philly and I was suggesting for Chi-Philly.
What constitutes being "served?" One slide mentions under this plan 91% of high ed would be served (I assume they mean by student population and not counting each institution as "1". My alma mater of App State is currently 1 hr 50 min from Greensboro and within a minute of that time to Charlotte. Boone, NC to Johnson City, TN is 1 hr 17 min. Is that close enough to being considered "served?" When (I am not going with "if" Asheville to Salisbury) has started App State's Boone Campus is 1 hour away from downtown Hickory.
The same question would apply to rural area, poverty rates and service and health care. I assume they all have the same standard of time or driving distance or "as the crow" flies distance.
The same question would apply to rural area, poverty rates and service and health care. I assume they all have the same standard of time or driving distance or "as the crow" flies distance.
I was typing my on question while this part of the thread was ongoing. How much time would be saved with a direct route? I assume a few hours as the Cardinal seems a rather circuitous route.
JamesWhitcombRiley
Lead Service Attendant
The Cap/Cardinal has a parallel discussion going on here: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/capitol-limited-discussion-2023-q4-2024.86126
For PHL-CHI, the Cardinal is 4 to 5 hours slower than the Cap or Lake Shore connection. For CHI-PHL, it's 3 to 6.5 hours slower.
jis
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At least I do not consider the Cardinal to be a real New York/Philly to Chicago train other than for rail fans. There currently is no real Philly to Chicago train and the only New York to Chicago train currently is the LSL and Washington DC to Chicago train is the Cap, in my thinking.
Cardinal once left NYPS later than now by an hour or two. Lengthened running times on CSX changed that. The Cardinal is trying to be all things to all people on major markets (NEC-CHI, WAS-WV-CIN, IND-CHI) and doesn't do a good job at any of it, which is why I say kill it east of DC and run Superliners with a Sighteseer as feature car with some table service in the lower lounge with Acela dinners, as well as a 35000-series cafe-coach for fast order food. 2 LSA's with a 3rd as a rest period relief for the other two should do it.
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jis
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Catchment area of a station is defined as:
"Catchment Area: To support network-level analysis, catchment areas are defined
as a 30-mile radius where the station or new segment is in an MSA, or a 50-mile
radius where the station or new segment is in a non-MSA area."
Anything within the Catchment Area of any station is considered as served. Anything that is not in the Catchment Area of any station is considered to be not served.
It is all spelled out quite clearly in the slideset.
joelkfla
Engineer
From a Florida perspective, I find it interesting that the Dallas to Miami preferred route is on FECR, and that travel between NOLA & ORL would not be direct, but possible with a transfer at JAX (dependent on scheduling), or a 1-hour drive to Daytona.
I'll go back and reread the slides-more closely. I thought I was doing a close enough skim to pick up on this. I did a very quick skim and clearly missed it.
Straight line Boone, NC to Johnson City, TN is around 40 miles. That would add a bit over 20,000 students to the "Served" count. Western Carolina, UNC-Asheville, UNC-Wilmington would not qualify as served (though Wimington does have Thruway bus.) Most of the the other colleges in NC of any size are near population centers that are served by Amtrak or in the radius outlined in your note. Or they are very small colleges that are not going to move the needle on percent served. UT-Knoxville, UTC and ETSU are larger universities that combined add about 62,000 student enrollment and with App State 81,000 students in the served catagory. That Houston-New York City route would do a few other things as well for rural communities.
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Be still my heart... I could pick up the train in Amarillo, less than half the distance to my now-closest station; ride through to Tallahassee instead of having to change trains in San Antonio and then renting a car at NOLA.
Please God, let me live long enough,,,
Please God, let me live long enough,,,
I think being optimistic is good. This is a big initiative with some federal support. Getting improvements takes steps, and I think this is a great step along the way. I wouldn't be surprised if none of it happens, but I'm still excited and happy that something is being talked about.Sorry, but this is the biggest “pipe dream” I have seen on this forum yet…
But it is an Official pipe dream. responding to Official issues. The same as parts of the Interstate or Federal Aid Primary Highways that have less traffic than the street that I can see from my retirement home. Some of this will happen.Sorry, but this is the biggest “pipe dream” I have seen on this forum yet…
Ha, I agree with your assessment completely! It's a somewhat wacko and unexpected route; I'm calling it the "squiggle" line due to how the line looks in western SD and down through WY into Denver. I'm a Minnesotan and I really don't think that this would be the best investment of Amtrak's focus + funds.
I'd much prefer a direct new Denver - Twin Cities routing to go via the former Omaha Road/C&NW (now UP) trackage from St. Paul and diagonally through southern MN via Mankato, MN and down to Sioux City, then to Omaha and on to Denver. I have to imagine (does anyone here know roughly?) that this routing would take more time than what is projected for the Denver - TC via Rapid City and Sioux Falls route, if not less time!?
I think you're spot on with what the routing seems to be made up of! My admitted strong personal bias is for trains to head over to Worthington on mostly former C&NW tracks and then up the UP to St. Paul. This routing would serve a larger population in rural Minnesota (several large colleges and universities in Mankato + St. Peter alone) and is relatively more direct than taking what I call the 'long swing' through deep rural western MN and then finally over to the Twin Cities via Willmar.
Of course, the only slight problem with this (lol, sarcasm
) is that the former C&NW line is out of service between Brandon, SD and Manley, MN (junction w/BNSF). The out of service part of the line (hurrah for rail investment!) in the process of being restored by the Ellis & Eastern Railroad, which owns all the track to from Sioux Falls to Agate/Org, MN (junction w/UP) near Worthington. They're also upgrading the rest of the line as well...but from basically Class 1 track (maybe some Class 2?) to Class 2, *maybe* Class 3. So, the line would need additional updating to Class 3 to allow decent passenger speeds. On the other hand, this route wouldn't happen for a long time anway, so the current track restoration and rebuild job (to be completed in the coming 3-4 years or less) will be done long before it would open.Enough of my rambling! I was just tickled to see someone else reacting to this funky route, of which I have personal connections to parts of
