Extending the Crescent to San Antonio.

[GlobalistPotato]

Once apon a time, this one guy talked about extending the City of New Orleans to Houston. Cool idea, except that require bringing the Sunset Limited's route up to daily status. He also included extending the Sunset back to florida... SOOOOO....

The issue of bringing the Sunset Limited up to daily status is another thread in its entirety...

But I suppose that once the Sunset Limited has been brought up to daily status, it'll be easier to introduce additional trains. SAS-HOU, SAS-HOU-NOL, Sunset's route, etc...

Assuming current schedules, only one more trainset would be required. So a large Viewliner/Amfleet order would be required.

One idea I had was extending the Crescent from New Orleans to Houston and San Antonio. It'd operate as an overnight train through Louisiana, arriving at San Antonio by Midday.

The only operational issue (not the issue of getting the train running) would be that 19 would arrive in Houston before 7 am, assuming current schedules. Not exactly the most convenient time for passengers riding overnight from NOL.

Another thing is that in order for train 20 to be properly serviced at NOL and make the current departure of 7:00 AM, the train would have to arrive at the station by 6:00 am.

But hey; how about a direct two-night train journey from south-central Texas and Houston to the east Coast?

 

[Ryan]

I suspect that the only think more optimistic than "when" the SL goes daily is the possibility of more than one train per day on the line.

 

[Gratt]

yes Yes YES :wub: I have tons of friends and family on the east coast and I know many down here who do as well.

aside for HSR in the Texas triange an overnight SAS-HOS-NOL train is vital, if it could be part of the crescent thus would become two day non stop service to NYC I know personally I would take it at least 2 or 3 times a year. Not to mention the amount of times I could travel to NOL, that would be great.

added with the new daily sunset schedule, one could quite literally leave HOS have lunch and take in the river walk in SAS and be back on an afternoon train to HOS in time to go to bed and get up for work the next morning It would be great for Sunday trips.

As for the early arrival to Houston, that can be fixed by having a long stay, just like they do now.

That being said I doubt it will happen, even if Amtrak had the spare equipment, but it is nice to dream ^_^

 

[Amtrak George]

Extending Crescent to San Antonio: Any time you extend a train further than its normal endpoints you run the risk of problems with timekeeping. The Crescent route could become less reliable. Also, the crew base is at New Orleans now and it is more efficient to have extra equipment, attendants, and maintenance people in one place; plus it could hurt employee morale to mess with the crews' home base and move them around the country.

Another problem, you would kill the connection with the Eagle at San Antonio, and serve places between NOLA and San Antone in the middle of the night. And, of course, we have a little thing called the Union Pacific RR that must agree to any kind of daily service. <_<

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Extending Crescent to San Antonio: Any time you extend a train further than its normal endpoints you run the risk of problems with timekeeping. The Crescent route could become less reliable. Also, the crew base is at New Orleans now and it is more efficient to have extra equipment, attendants, and maintenance people in one place; plus it could hurt employee morale to mess with the crews' home base and move them around the country.

Another problem, you would kill the connection with the Eagle at San Antonio, and serve places between NOLA and San Antone in the middle of the night. And, of course, we have a little thing called the Union Pacific RR that must agree to any kind of daily service. <_<

Yes, the problems with more delays is always an issue with extending a route.

No, this train isn't supposed to connect to the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle in SAS. That's the job of the Sunset Limited.

Yeah, but UPRR accepting the daily service is a "duh" sort of requirement.

 

[Anderson]

If you extend the Crescent to SAS, you're probably going to have to cut the TE/SL back to SAS as well. On its own, I can't comment on the equipment situation, but it would make sense insofar as it would consolidate one operation into two others (the SL would basically be split between the Crescent and the Texas Eagle). You'd lose through-car service, but that wouldn't be the end of the world at this point.

I do not see a market for two trains NOL-SAS at this stage unless one is strictly a daylight operation and the other an overnight. Two overnight trains SAS-NOL would put it in the same league as CHI-NYP and NYP/WAS-ORL...and I do not believe that the former market is as large as the two latter ones in terms of available traffic.

 

[Gratt]

I do not see a market for two trains NOL-SAS at this stage unless one is strictly a daylight operation and the other an overnight. Two overnight trains SAS-NOL would put it in the same league as CHI-NYP and NYP/WAS-ORL...and I do not believe that the former market is as large as the two latter ones in terms of available traffic.

I think that was the point if you look at Amtrak's plan for a daily sunset it would have it going from SAS at 7:50 AM and get to NOL at 9:00 PM

NOL-SAS would be 9:45AM-11M

an extended crescent would leave about 10ish from NOL and get into SAS at around noon, with a morning stop in HOS.

As to the crew base issue, a crew base would already need to be established for the daily sunset stub train, so all we are talking about is a shift of staff, uncomfortable but doable.

Again this all depends on a daily sunset though, which now looks like it has as 1:750,000,000 chance of happening :lol:

 

[Anderson]

Gratt,

True...I was looking the other way. Going with the proposed stub train:

Westbound:

09:45 AM departure, NOL

11:00 PM arrival, SAS

Eastbound:

07:50 AM departure, SAS

09:00 PM arrival, NOL

With the Crescent, you have:

07:38 PM Arr. NOL

07:05 AM Dep. NOL

Granted, the proposed adjustments drop over 1:30 from the stub train's schedule...which is expecting a lot from UP, I suspect. Still, assuming you can get that, your biggest hiccup is going to be that you wouldn't have single-seat service westbound on this train from NOL. As cool as it would be to simply run a couple of the Crescent's cars through to LAX (establishing through-car service from NYP/WAS to LAX), I don't see that happening.

I think the biggest problem is that, given an extra set of cars, I'd rather see the Silver Palm re-extended at least as far as Orlando (Tampa might be too much to hope for here, not that I'd pass on the offer) and one of the others (probably the Meteor, but again I won't bicker) rerouted down the East Coast Line. Part of this is that I'm not sure that you gain much with "two night" service anywhere...and I don't know what offering overnight service from SAS/HOU-ATL would be worth.

 

[AlanB]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

 

[had8ley]

I hate being the eternal realist of this list but I was badgered heavily when the daily Sunset first popped up. We're still waiting in line for tickets. Running a train to a point that has no real mechanical facilities for Viewliners is a major undertaking. Amtrak would scream if they had to build a new facility to handle one train a day and Viewliner equipment at that. Think realistically about this and one would realize that this would be the farthest point Viewliner equipment would travel west of its home territory. You think the $750 million the UP wants is a lot; wait until you see the price tag Amtrak puts on a maintainence faility for a one train a day Viewliner set !!!

 

[had8ley]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

 

[rrdude]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

Well, that would suck like eggs on ice. Question though (just thinking Southbound) ......The diner and the sleepers are in the train when it arrives at Atlanta, and the crew is obviously on board. What do you do with either / both? There's no time / space to switch them off that I know of. (my knowledge of Atlanta is non-existent........) I guess you could take the dining crew off the clock, and deadhead them down to NOL, or even take the crew off, but that would also upset the breakfast going INTO Atlanta....And IF you shut the diner down at Atlanta, you COULD feed (notice I didn't say provide a "meal") the few remaining sleeper patrons from the AmCafe car.........I think any savings would be pretty paltry, and it would really be save-a-penny, spend-a-dollar kind of operation, with the overall operation suffering. May be better off just Terminating the train in Atlanta. But then the whole National System argument comes up, and the need for equipment for another all coach train for NOL-Atlanta, and the unions and crew base issues.......ugh.

 

[had8ley]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

Well, that would suck like eggs on ice. Question though (just thinking Southbound) ......The diner and the sleepers are in the train when it arrives at Atlanta, and the crew is obviously on board. What do you do with either / both? There's no time / space to switch them off that I know of. (my knowledge of Atlanta is non-existent........) I guess you could take the dining crew off the clock, and deadhead them down to NOL, or even take the crew off, but that would also upset the breakfast going INTO Atlanta....And IF you shut the diner down at Atlanta, you COULD feed (notice I didn't say provide a "meal") the few remaining sleeper patrons from the AmCafe car.........I think any savings would be pretty paltry, and it would really be save-a-penny, spend-a-dollar kind of operation, with the overall operation suffering. May be better off just Terminating the train in Atlanta. But then the whole National System argument comes up, and the need for equipment for another all coach train for NOL-Atlanta, and the unions and crew base issues.......ugh.

I wouldn't tell Amtrak this but run the diner crew to Anniston or B'ham so they can clean up and take inventory; n'bound get ready for the stampede in Atlanta.Right now they just lock up a coach or two upon leaving Atlanta and carry then through to NOL. At least they get a free car wash for traveling over 1,000 miles R/T to/from Atlanta empty.It works (nuked food) on #449 from Boston to Albany so I guess they figure it'll work on # 19 & # 20. They will lose my biz when they start nuking Hebrew Nationals at lunch time !#$% :help:

 

[jis]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

Maybe they should just send the Sleeper, Diner and a couple of coaches plus a bag to Dallas/Fort Worth. They can move the Viewliner service facility from NOL to Fort Worth. They can run basically a coach train with the Lounge from Meridian to NOL. Just a random thought. Will require some staff at Meridian to do the split join, unless they run those two as separate trains from Atlanta, one chasing the tail light of the other.

 

[lepearso]

I too heard that they may eliminate sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. The problem is that patronage is extremely low relative to other sections of the route.

I can see some reasons why the patronage between Atlanta and New Orleans is low.

1. The station facilities in Atlanta and Birmingham inhibit growth and are a barrier to customer satisfaction. Think about it: the Crescent's decent schedule might appeal to someone living in Atlanta or Birmingham who is traveling to Tuscaloosa, Meridian or New Orleans, but who in their right mind would go to the trouble to find a place to park and then board at such an atrocious facility? Better station facilities with adequate parking at Birmingham and Atlanta would certainly boost ridership between Atlanta and New Orleans.

2. Atlanta needs an additional station in one of the suburbs. A decent suburban station in an attractive setting with adequate parking would boost ridership and customer satisfaction on the Crescent.

3. There are no Thruway bus connections between Atlanta and New Orleans for the Crescent, and that makes the train less appealing. A single bus round trip between Birmingham and Nashville could connect with the Crescent in BOTH directions at Birmingham and also make a stop in Huntsville. A single bus round trip between Birmingham and Memphis could connect with the Crescent AND the City of New Orleans, closing a major gap between the two routes. And there should also be a Thruway connection from Meridian to Jackson and Vicksburg. Hattiesburg to Gulfport would be possibility as well. No doubt, coordinated bus connections on the western half of the Crescent route would boost patronage.

As soon as Atlanta and Birmingham get new stations, and when and if some coordinated bus connections are added, there will be enough patronage on the western half of the Crescent route to justify the diner and sleeper service. After all, the train operates through this part of the route through all three meal settings. They simply need a way to get more people on board the train who will use these services.

 

[had8ley]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

Maybe they should just send the Sleeper, Diner and a couple of coaches plus a bag to Dallas/Fort Worth. They can move the Viewliner service facility from NOL to Fort Worth. They can run basically a coach train with the Lounge from Meridian to NOL. Just a random thought. Will require some staff at Meridian to do the split join, unless they run those two as separate trains from Atlanta, one chasing the tail light of the other.

Jis;

You move people from one station to another; a maintainence facility is a whole different story...with the bag/dorms coming on board there are a lot of possibilities but it really seems that Amtrak enjoys the status quo~ think Sunset East and you'll see my point! The Mobile train that originated in B'ham didn't last too very long and I predict, if it happens, the same for a Meridian split. :lol:

 

[jis]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

Maybe they should just send the Sleeper, Diner and a couple of coaches plus a bag to Dallas/Fort Worth. They can move the Viewliner service facility from NOL to Fort Worth. They can run basically a coach train with the Lounge from Meridian to NOL. Just a random thought. Will require some staff at Meridian to do the split join, unless they run those two as separate trains from Atlanta, one chasing the tail light of the other.

Jis;

You move people from one station to another; a maintainence facility is a whole different story...with the bag/dorms coming on board there are a lot of possibilities but it really seems that Amtrak enjoys the status quo~ think Sunset East and you'll see my point! The Mobile train that originated in B'ham didn't last too very long and I predict, if it happens, the same for a Meridian split. :lol:

Oh yeah, I am not predicting anything will happen anytime soon. It would be interesting to see what the PRIIA Route Study for the Crescent says this year though. But if we are going to speculate/dream, might as well dream things that are at least remotely feasible and identify the operational gotchas (the Viewliner maintenance issue is one as you identified), just for the heck of it. See my note on the LSL via Detroit proposal on the other Andreson initiated thread to see what I mean, not that that will happen either. :lol:

Boardman has it on record at the NARP Annual Meeting in his Keynote address, that there will be minimal changes to LD trains until Congress sets a policy regarding them. It is anybody's guess what that might mean. But he is also on record saying that Amtrak is currently not pursuing either the conversion of Cardinal to a daily train or the run through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Ltd., both recommendations from the route study of those respective trains.

 

[the_traveler]

Or run the proposed stub train SAS-NOL-ATL-WAS with Superliner equipment! WAS already services Superliners with the CL!

 

[had8ley]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected, than an extension of the Crescent from NOL to San Antonio.

The Crescent Star would be a much busier train and far more practical.

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans. This would be a serious blow to trans-con pax and those wanting to eat in the diner.Before the Southern gave up the Crescent it only ran three days a week for many years between Atlanta and NOL.There have been trips when I've been the only one in the sleeper but when we arrived Atlanta it looked like the crowds at Penn Station waiting to board.

Maybe they should just send the Sleeper, Diner and a couple of coaches plus a bag to Dallas/Fort Worth. They can move the Viewliner service facility from NOL to Fort Worth. They can run basically a coach train with the Lounge from Meridian to NOL. Just a random thought. Will require some staff at Meridian to do the split join, unless they run those two as separate trains from Atlanta, one chasing the tail light of the other.

Jis;

You move people from one station to another; a maintainence facility is a whole different story...with the bag/dorms coming on board there are a lot of possibilities but it really seems that Amtrak enjoys the status quo~ think Sunset East and you'll see my point! The Mobile train that originated in B'ham didn't last too very long and I predict, if it happens, the same for a Meridian split. :lol:

Oh yeah, I am not predicting anything will happen anytime soon. It would be interesting to see what the PRIIA Route Study for the Crescent says this year though. But if we are going to speculate/dream, might as well dream things that are at least remotely feasible and identify the operational gotchas (the Viewliner maintenance issue is one as you identified), just for the heck of it. See my note on the LSL via Detroit proposal on the other Andreson initiated thread to see what I mean, not that that will happen either. :lol:

Boardman has it on record at the NARP Annual Meeting in his Keynote address, that there will be minimal changes to LD trains until Congress sets a policy regarding them. It is anybody's guess what that might mean. But he is also on record saying that Amtrak is currently not pursuing either the conversion of Cardinal to a daily train or the run through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Ltd., both recommendations from the route study of those respective trains.

I just hope "minimal" doesn't mean we go from a $25 steak to a Hebrew National :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[daveyb99]

I'd much rather see the Crescent Star idea resurrected ...

Just as a side note; there is serious talk of eliminating sleeper and diner service between Atlanta and New Orleans ....

Then run the Sleeper and Diner JAN-MLU-SHV-DAL-FTW instead, and two Coach cars to NOL .....

(OK OK, times may not workout right now, but MUCH more traffic can be expected)

 

[Anderson]

What's the Crescent Star idea?

 

[daveyb99]

What's the Crescent Star idea?

cut cars off the Crescent in Meridian, and run JAN-MLU-SHV-DAL-FTW

 

[jis]

Or run the proposed stub train SAS-NOL-ATL-WAS with Superliner equipment! WAS already services Superliners with the CL!

Provided you can find enough Supers lying around for use in such. :lol:

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Hey, if anyone thinks this idea is crazy, consider this:

I looked at the possibility of having a trans-con train from LAX to NYP, running with the Sunset Limited from LA to El Paso and the Crescent from Meridian to NYC.

Based on the new proposed timetables of the Sunset Limited, an old timetable of the Dallas-El Paso segment of MoPac's Texas Eagle, some google map measurements and calculations between Marshall Texas and Meridian, and the Crescent's schedules, I found out that it won't work due to scheduling issues?

The reason why? The train would arrive in Meridian at about 11 pm. The Crescent stops in Meridian at 11 am! :giggle:

 

[George Harris]

The Mobile train that originated in B'ham didn't last too very long and I predict, if it happens, the same for a Meridian split. :lol:

I think that had a lot to do with excruciatingly slow Atlanta to Mobile times, thanks to an Atlanta - Birminghame - Montgomery time of about 7 hours compared to a direct driving time of about 3 hours. Plus, Mobile was not exactly a huge metropolis.

I would suspect that a Meridian - Ft. Worth train would do much better if set up to be a good overnight run with early morning arrival / late afternoon departure from Dallas.