Downeaster should be extended to South Station

[USrail21]

The Downeaster needs to be extended to Boston South Station. It runs currently from Portland (Maine) to Boston North Station. It is isolated from the rest of Amtrak routes. So make a tunnel from North Station to South Station. It would go Under Interstate 93 until it reaches south station. It would skip North Station as North Station MBTA Commuters Terminate there. This is so u=you don't have to the MBTA Subway from South Station to North Station. So it would be an easy connection from Acela, Northeast Regional, and Lake Shore Limited.

 

[the_traveler]

That was the plan - to run the Downeaster to South Station - but that was stopped when the Big Dig ran BILLIONS AND BILLIONS over budget!

(The connecting tracks were to be in the same tunnel!)

I'm sure of YOU PERSONALLY pay for all these service improvements you have been proposing - including fixing the tracks building new tracks, signaling, etc..., etc..., then they can get done. Remember Congress barely provides Amtrak enough subsidy to keep the present system operating! Not to expand it to new cities!

 

[afigg]

That was the plan - to run the Downeaster to South Station - but that was stopped when the Big Dig ran BILLIONS AND BILLIONS over budget!

(The connecting tracks were to be in the same tunnel!)

I thought the BOS to BON connecting tunnel and tracks were dropped from the Big Dig plans to cut costs long before it got into the really big cost overruns. Too bad, because if the project was going to get into cost overruns that huge, they should have gone ahead and added the rail tunnel anyway. Who would noticed the additional billion or two? :lol:

 

[amamba]

The Downeaster needs to be extended to Boston South Station. It runs currently from Portland (Maine) to Boston North Station. It is isolated from the rest of Amtrak routes. So make a tunnel from North Station to South Station. It would go Under Interstate 93 until it reaches south station. It would skip North Station as North Station MBTA Commuters Terminate there. This is so u=you don't have to the MBTA Subway from South Station to North Station. So it would be an easy connection from Acela, Northeast Regional, and Lake Shore Limited.

Sure, that would be nice. Who is going to pay for that rail connection? You know to go UNDER interstate 93 it would need a really big and deep tunnel, considering I-93 is underground in the ridiculousness that was the Big Dig.

Come back when you have about $5 billion to spend on the project.

 

[eagle628]

Believe it or not, this has been proposed before... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-South_Rail_Link <--not the greatest article, but it's a decent overview...

 

[George Harris]

That was the plan - to run the Downeaster to South Station - but that was stopped when the Big Dig ran BILLIONS AND BILLIONS over budget!

(The connecting tracks were to be in the same tunnel!)

I thought the BOS to BON connecting tunnel and tracks were dropped from the Big Dig plans to cut costs long before it got into the really big cost overruns. Too bad, because if the project was going to get into cost overruns that huge, they should have gone ahead and added the rail tunnel anyway. Who would noticed the additional billion or two? :lol:

The big dig is the poster child of what happens when you try to solve transportation problems is an urbanized area by building more roads. Those that squak about the cost of rail projects should look at the cost of road project with the same capacity.

 

[sechs]

The big dig is the poster child of what happens when you try to solve transportation problems is an urbanized area by building more roads.

Oh, I'd argue that the Embarcadero Freeway or, maybe, the original Central Artery hold that title.

 

[NETrainfan]

Most Mainers just accept this. We're so glad to have the Downeaster.

 

[Joeker]

Rather than having all Downeaster trains terminate at BON a couple should be diverted via the Inland Route, Lawrence MA to Lowell MA to Worcester Ma to Sprongfield MA, where connections can be made to New Haven and NYC. Prior to 1967 there was a train from Portland that ran basically this same route.

This area has a large population base and can tap into a new market.

Amtrak once ran a Bos to NY train via the Worcester and Springfield but funding cuts in the 1980's killed it.

 

[amamba]

Rather than having all Downeaster trains terminate at BON a couple should be diverted via the Inland Route, Lawrence MA to Lowell MA to Worcester Ma to Sprongfield MA, where connections can be made to New Haven and NYC. Prior to 1967 there was a train from Portland that ran basically this same route.

This area has a large population base and can tap into a new market.

Amtrak once ran a Bos to NY train via the Worcester and Springfield but funding cuts in the 1980's killed it.

Does a rail connection exist for this to happen without any track work/upgrades? I am just thinking of the fact that the Framingham/worcester MBTA line originates in BOS (not BON) and the LSL, which also runs out that way, also starts at BOS.

The downeaster presently stops in Haverhill, right? So you are suggesting that after Haverhill that the downeaster head more southwest to Lawrence, Lowell & Worcester, rather than cutting back east over to Boston. It seems like it would be nice to have one train a day in each direction that did that to give people a one seat ride from Maine to NYP. I wonder if the folks that fund the Downeaster would be willing to fund that?

I am very excited for the downeaster extension to Brunswick. When is that scheduled to happen - sometime soon, right?

 

[Joeker]

A connection does exist. The line from Haverhill to Lawrence and on to Lowell is part of the original Boston & Maine now Pan Am (Guilford) RR. This is the main freight line from Maine to the rest of the US.Freights trains operate daily on this route. Of course the track would need to be upgraded but it seems that Pan Am RR has recently seen the light of accepting State and Federal money to upgrade its track as it has already done so in NH and Maine and will soon do so on the CT Valley line from Springfield north to Greenfield MA and Brattleboro VT

From Lowell the train would then travel to Ayer MA on this same freight only trackage where an existing freight line (Providence & Worcester) runs south to Worcester. From Worcester it would be on existing trackage that the LSL runs to Springfield ( ex B&A and NYC now CSX)

So it can be done and it makes a lot more sense and probably at less of a cost than a new tunnel to South Station.

As to Brunswick, ME This track is being upgraded now and service is scheduled to start sometimein 2012 or 2013.

This will just make my annual trip to Boothbay Harbor, ME much easier and less driving!

 

[TimePeace]

Most Mainers just accept this. We're so glad to have the Downeaster.

Ayuh ... I agree

 

[Shawn Ryu]

A connection does exist. The line from Haverhill to Lawrence and on to Lowell is part of the original Boston & Maine now Pan Am (Guilford) RR. This is the main freight line from Maine to the rest of the US.Freights trains operate daily on this route. Of course the track would need to be upgraded but it seems that Pan Am RR has recently seen the light of accepting State and Federal money to upgrade its track as it has already done so in NH and Maine and will soon do so on the CT Valley line from Springfield north to Greenfield MA and Brattleboro VT

From Lowell the train would then travel to Ayer MA on this same freight only trackage where an existing freight line (Providence & Worcester) runs south to Worcester. From Worcester it would be on existing trackage that the LSL runs to Springfield ( ex B&A and NYC now CSX)

So it can be done and it makes a lot more sense and probably at less of a cost than a new tunnel to South Station.

As to Brunswick, ME This track is being upgraded now and service is scheduled to start sometimein 2012 or 2013.

This will just make my annual trip to Boothbay Harbor, ME much easier and less driving!

The question is how much longer will this trip be? If it adds another hour to a trip its not worth it.

 

[afigg]

A connection does exist. The line from Haverhill to Lawrence and on to Lowell is part of the original Boston & Maine now Pan Am (Guilford) RR. This is the main freight line from Maine to the rest of the US.Freights trains operate daily on this route. Of course the track would need to be upgraded but it seems that Pan Am RR has recently seen the light of accepting State and Federal money to upgrade its track as it has already done so in NH and Maine and will soon do so on the CT Valley line from Springfield north to Greenfield MA and Brattleboro VT

The other possible route is via the Grand Junction through Cambridge. MBTA has acquired the Grand Junction line and is purchasing the CSX line to Worcester. MassDOT is looking at the options in upgrading the Grand Junction in order to have some commuter trains from Worcester go to the North Station instead. The options to upgrade the Grand Junction to at least 30 mph speeds and building a commuter station near Kendall Square are being evaluated in a feasibility study. Found this Boston Globe editorial from July and a June MassDOT public community meeting minutes on the idea.

MassDOT is also planning upgrades to the Framingham - Worcester line once they finish acquiring it and studying restoring double tracks on the CSX owned tracks to Springfield MA. Mass is interested in additional Boston to Springfield service and having some Regionals go over the Inland Route. If all this happens, there could be serious interest in a direct NYP - Springfield - Worcester - BON - Portland ME train. But this is all a very big if which is dependent on MassDOT and MBTA deciding to pursue and find funding for these projects which will take years to happen at best.

[Edit]: found the MassDot website page on the Grand Junction study with a link to the viewgraph presentation.

 

[JeffW]

That was the plan - to run the Downeaster to South Station - but that was stopped when the Big Dig ran BILLIONS AND BILLIONS over budget!

(The connecting tracks were to be in the same tunnel!)

I thought the BOS to BON connecting tunnel and tracks were dropped from the Big Dig plans to cut costs long before it got into the really big cost overruns. Too bad, because if the project was going to get into cost overruns that huge, they should have gone ahead and added the rail tunnel anyway. Who would noticed the additional billion or two? :lol:

The big dig is the poster child of what happens when you try to solve transportation problems is an urbanized area by building more roads. Those that squak about the cost of rail projects should look at the cost of road project with the same capacity.

I heard recently about a study that concluded that when you add roads, congestion increases, because more people drive them. I guess people assume that by adding roads, they will be able to drive more routes that they previously avoided. So did the Big Dig actually help with congestion in Boston?

Similarly, when Amtrak adds more trips to congested routes, do they fill up? And if they add stations, do they get used just as quickly? (The question is rhetorical, considering that it entirely depends on the line, station, region, sometimes even the block where it sits in a city...)

 

[George Harris]

Similarly, when Amtrak adds more trips to congested routes, do they fill up? And if they add stations, do they get used just as quickly? (The question is rhetorical, considering that it entirely depends on the line, station, region, sometimes even the block where it sits in a city...)

A couple of examples:

When North Carolina added a third train between Raleigh and Charlotte, they carried more passengers per each than they did before the the third train was added.

The San Joaquins service in now 6 trains per train, each one carrying respecable loads. There has been quite a bit of work on stations and platforms, as well. I do not have the numbers, but the stations are certainly not ghost tows. In fact, some of the refurbised stations are beginning to look undersized for the current loads.

 

[jis]

A connection does exist. The line from Haverhill to Lawrence and on to Lowell is part of the original Boston & Maine now Pan Am (Guilford) RR. This is the main freight line from Maine to the rest of the US.Freights trains operate daily on this route. Of course the track would need to be upgraded but it seems that Pan Am RR has recently seen the light of accepting State and Federal money to upgrade its track as it has already done so in NH and Maine and will soon do so on the CT Valley line from Springfield north to Greenfield MA and Brattleboro VT

The other possible route is via the Grand Junction through Cambridge. MBTA has acquired the Grand Junction line and is purchasing the CSX line to Worcester. MassDOT is looking at the options in upgrading the Grand Junction in order to have some commuter trains from Worcester go to the North Station instead. The options to upgrade the Grand Junction to at least 30 mph speeds and building a commuter station near Kendall Square are being evaluated in a feasibility study. Found this Boston Globe editorial from July and a June MassDOT public community meeting minutes on the idea.

MassDOT is also planning upgrades to the Framingham - Worcester line once they finish acquiring it and studying restoring double tracks on the CSX owned tracks to Springfield MA. Mass is interested in additional Boston to Springfield service and having some Regionals go over the Inland Route. If all this happens, there could be serious interest in a direct NYP - Springfield - Worcester - BON - Portland ME train. But this is all a very big if which is dependent on MassDOT and MBTA deciding to pursue and find funding for these projects which will take years to happen at best.

[Edit]: found the MassDot website page on the Grand Junction study with a link to the viewgraph presentation.

I will be absolutely astounded if they actually run any regularly scheduled service during daytime on that line. I can just hear the howls of very well to do NIMBY's all along the route. The only way it will happen is if they can find the money to did it into a trench through Cambridge.

 

[TCRT]

A connection does exist. The line from Haverhill to Lawrence and on to Lowell is part of the original Boston & Maine now Pan Am (Guilford) RR. This is the main freight line from Maine to the rest of the US.Freights trains operate daily on this route. Of course the track would need to be upgraded but it seems that Pan Am RR has recently seen the light of accepting State and Federal money to upgrade its track as it has already done so in NH and Maine and will soon do so on the CT Valley line from Springfield north to Greenfield MA and Brattleboro VT

The other possible route is via the Grand Junction through Cambridge. MBTA has acquired the Grand Junction line and is purchasing the CSX line to Worcester. MassDOT is looking at the options in upgrading the Grand Junction in order to have some commuter trains from Worcester go to the North Station instead. The options to upgrade the Grand Junction to at least 30 mph speeds and building a commuter station near Kendall Square are being evaluated in a feasibility study. Found this Boston Globe editorial from July and a June MassDOT public community meeting minutes on the idea.

MassDOT is also planning upgrades to the Framingham - Worcester line once they finish acquiring it and studying restoring double tracks on the CSX owned tracks to Springfield MA. Mass is interested in additional Boston to Springfield service and having some Regionals go over the Inland Route. If all this happens, there could be serious interest in a direct NYP - Springfield - Worcester - BON - Portland ME train. But this is all a very big if which is dependent on MassDOT and MBTA deciding to pursue and find funding for these projects which will take years to happen at best.

[Edit]: found the MassDot website page on the Grand Junction study with a link to the viewgraph presentation.

I will be absolutely astounded if they actually run any regularly scheduled service during daytime on that line. I can just hear the howls of very well to do NIMBY's all along the route. The only way it will happen is if they can find the money to did it into a trench through Cambridge.

As a Cambridge resident, I'd have to agree with you on that. Ever since the MBTA bought the Grand Junction line the city council has been up in arms about the possibility of "high speed diesel trains" (their words, not mine) running through the city. I have some rather, um, interesting campaign literature about this issue that showed up at my apartment.

NIMBYs aside, the city council does have a point that the line does cut across most every busy street in that part of Cambridge. However, I would also argue that the current 5mph switching of strings of well cars that happens there snarls traffic much worse than a 30mph Downeaster or MBTA train ever would.

It's also worth noting that the Grand Juntion would NOT be a suitable BON-BOS link. I believe it would require a reverse move at each end and would probably take at least 30 minutes to complete said connection. That's about the same amount of time as it takes to walk between the two stations.

 

[orulz]

Surely building a direct connection from the Grand Junction line to South Station to eliminate the reverse moves would be possible? Probably several orders of magnitude less expensive than the big dig rail link, though not necessarily cheap. The nimby factor remains, however.

 

[NETrainfan]

Many of you may read online at TrainRiders Northeast for specific info on the Downeaster. Lots of good articles.

 

[afigg]

I will be absolutely astounded if they actually run any regularly scheduled service during daytime on that line. I can just hear the howls of very well to do NIMBY's all along the route. The only way it will happen is if they can find the money to did it into a trench through Cambridge.

As a Cambridge resident, I'd have to agree with you on that. Ever since the MBTA bought the Grand Junction line the city council has been up in arms about the possibility of "high speed diesel trains" (their words, not mine) running through the city. I have some rather, um, interesting campaign literature about this issue that showed up at my apartment.

NIMBYs aside, the city council does have a point that the line does cut across most every busy street in that part of Cambridge. However, I would also argue that the current 5mph switching of strings of well cars that happens there snarls traffic much worse than a 30mph Downeaster or MBTA train ever would.

It's also worth noting that the Grand Juntion would NOT be a suitable BON-BOS link. I believe it would require a reverse move at each end and would probably take at least 30 minutes to complete said connection. That's about the same amount of time as it takes to walk between the two stations.

The study is not looking at a BON-BOS revenue service link. Obviously too slow and indirect to be viable for revenue service. Looking at the map, I see only 1 reverse move to be made south of the Charles River. I wonder if there was ever a connecting curved track to the eastbound direction coming off of the bridge across the Charles that might have gotten chopped off in a I-90 highway project.

As for the Grand Junction, if it is $10 to $15 million to fix up the 2 mile link with improved grade crossings, fences, track repair, MBTA can cover that out of their capital budget. Even if they don't go with revenue service over the line, MBTA may want to improve grade crossings and install fences because they are now liable for safety.

Don't know what the technical issues would be for a trench from behind MIT north to the last road crossing, - grade, soil, possible interference with the Red Line - but such a project would run into the multiple of 100s of million range and would likely get stuck in 10 years of engineering and EIS studies before anything could happen. Also any project involving a lot of digging may not be well received in a city gunshy after the Big Dig nor with those who have other ideas for the line - bike trail, etc.

MBTA is discussing upgrading speeds over the Grand Junction to 30 mph. So that is "high speed" in Cambridge? The "high speed rail" threshold keeps getting lowered! :blink:

 

[the_traveler]

I heard recently about a study that concluded that when you add roads, congestion increases, because more people drive them. I guess people assume that by adding roads, they will be able to drive more routes that they previously avoided. So did the Big Dig actually help with congestion in Boston?

The Big Dig did not add any roads to Boston at all! The only thing it did was to put I-93 (which ran through the center of the city on bridges above ground) underground. "Out of sight - out of mind!" (The above ground portion is now dismantled.)

 

[jis]

Don't know what the technical issues would be for a trench from behind MIT north to the last road crossing, - grade, soil, possible interference with the Red Line - but such a project would run into the multiple of 100s of million range and would likely get stuck in 10 years of engineering and EIS studies before anything could happen. Also any project involving a lot of digging may not be well received in a city gunshy after the Big Dig nor with those who have other ideas for the line - bike trail, etc.

MBTA is discussing upgrading speeds over the Grand Junction to 30 mph. So that is "high speed" in Cambridge? The "high speed rail" threshold keeps getting lowered! :blink:

MBTA can discuss all it wants and fill the pockets of their favorite consultants while at it. But my fearless prediction is that as long as it involves a grade crossing across Mass Avenue in the middle of Cambridge, it is most likely a non starter for daytime revenue service.

Red Line will be a problem, but that is under Main Street and perhaps a grade crossing there may be acceptable. The distance between Mass Ave. and Main Street is insufficient though for a duckunder at Mass Ave to come back to surface by Main Street AFAIR.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Most Mainers just accept this. We're so glad to have the Downeaster.

Well, to this Texan it seems like a weird disconnected appendage of a route. The kind of thing that "union stations" were designed to address way back when. I understand the feeling of "at least we have something" but I would like to see an option that connected the Downeaster to the rest of the network without having to do more than cross a platform or few. Just seems a little early to be talking about these sorts of projects as though were a demoralized third world country.

 

[TCRT]

Don't know what the technical issues would be for a trench from behind MIT north to the last road crossing, - grade, soil, possible interference with the Red Line - but such a project would run into the multiple of 100s of million range and would likely get stuck in 10 years of engineering and EIS studies before anything could happen. Also any project involving a lot of digging may not be well received in a city gunshy after the Big Dig nor with those who have other ideas for the line - bike trail, etc.

MBTA is discussing upgrading speeds over the Grand Junction to 30 mph. So that is "high speed" in Cambridge? The "high speed rail" threshold keeps getting lowered! :blink:

MBTA can discuss all it wants and fill the pockets of their favorite consultants while at it. But my fearless prediction is that as long as it involves a grade crossing across Mass Avenue in the middle of Cambridge, it is most likely a non starter for daytime revenue service.

Red Line will be a problem, but that is under Main Street and perhaps a grade crossing there may be acceptable. The distance between Mass Ave. and Main Street is insufficient though for a duckunder at Mass Ave to come back to surface by Main Street AFAIR.

Mass Ave is definitely the busiest of the roads in question if the Grand Junction gets upgraded. Apparently it's in MIT's master plan to construct a road underpass at that location (i.e. leaving the railroad grade untouched) to alleviate traffic issues.