Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

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The point defiance bypass is a silly piece of trackage. it is not scenic, not safe, the local residents did not want it and it only saves 10 minutes or something.
 
Trains had made multiple test runs with no problems. Media is quick to blame speed but test runs probably operated at the same speed. Talgo trains are designed to operate at high speed on curves. They run at 150mph in Spain. What makes this suspicious is that it occurred on the inaugural run and not on a test. The city of Lakewood has been whipping up opposition to the bypass for years. They even tried a ballot initiative against it. Wouldn’t surprise me if a disgruntled opponent was involved. If something substantial was on the track, this was most likely sabotage.
 
Heath Loxton said:
The point defiance bypass is a silly piece of trackage. it is not scenic, not safe, the local residents did not want it and it only saves 10 minutes or something.
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It doesn't need to be scenic. It's perfectly safe if operated properly, and not sabotaged. And quite frankly, if we only listen to what local residents want, nothing would ever happen in this country ever ever ever ever ever ever again.

But otherwise, spot-on.
 
Jbpdx said:
Trains had made multiple test runs with no problems. Media is quick to blame speed but test runs probably operated at the same speed. Talgo trains are designed to operate at high speed on curves. They run at 150mph in Spain. What makes this suspicious is that it occurred on the inaugural run and not on a test. The city of Lakewood has been whipping up opposition to the bypass for years. They even tried a ballot initiative against it. Wouldn’t surprise me if a disgruntled opponent was involved. If something substantial was on the track, this was most likely sabotage.
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I pray that if it was sabotage, that whomever was at fault will be charged, tried, and sentenced.

Any guess to about how long will it be before the engineer's statement is made public??
 
Jbpdx said:
Trains had made multiple test runs with no problems. Media is quick to blame speed but test runs probably operated at the same speed. Talgo trains are designed to operate at high speed on curves. They run at 150mph in Spain. What makes this suspicious is that it occurred on the inaugural run and not on a test. The city of Lakewood has been whipping up opposition to the bypass for years. They even tried a ballot initiative against it. Wouldn’t surprise me if a disgruntled opponent was involved. If something substantial was on the track, this was most likely sabotage.
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Sabotage would be just horrible, if that's the case. I understand that this was a completely new track and the Spanish Talgo equipment should have no difficulties to operate at higher speeds.
 
Let's take a moment to reflect on the memory of our two friends from the rail advocacy community that we lost in the accident. RIP Jim And Zach. Let's not forget them in this tragedy.
 
Ngotwalt said:
Let’s ask this question then, if the train were going track speed, 79MPH about to slow for a speed restriction, and it struck something, could that impact have somehow prevent the brakes from engaging? Usually when damage to the brake system occurs, pressure drops, brakes go on, train stops. The evidence seems to suggest an over speed derailment, how could an impact have damaged the equipment in such a way that the breaks failed to respond? I’m not by any means saying it’s impossible, but it is not scenario I have ever heard of...

Nick
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There are indeed rare instances of accidents having been caused by brake failures. For example the GG1 that plowed into Washinton DC in 1953.

But brakes are designed to be fail safe, so if anything goes wrong they come on rather than stay off.

But under very special sets of circumstances, it is indeed possible, yes.

Maybe the front locomotive did brake correctly but somewhere along the train a brake pipe was blocked and the unbraked heavy rear locomotive pushed the train out in the curve.

But this is unlikely.
 
If it is simply overspeed, it raises the question of why PTC wasn't operating, on what is a practically rebuilt line. The European/Chinese versions of PTC have been practically universal for years now.
 
neroden said:
If it is simply overspeed, it raises the question of why PTC wasn't operating, on what is a practically rebuilt line. The European/Chinese versions of PTC have been practically universal for years now.
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One of the news reports I watched mentioned that the PTC was in the "testing phase" for that route, and wasn't used because of that.

It was not clear how fast the train was moving at the precise moment when it derailed.

Kimberley Reason with Sound Transit, the Seattle-area transit agency that owns the tracks, confirmed to the AP that the speed limit at the point where the train derailed is 30 mph. Speed signs are posted two miles before the speed zone and just before the speed zone approaching the curve, she said.

So, were both speed zone signs there at 7:30am, when the derailment occurred, in the pre-dawn morning of the 18th ?? (Sunrise was at 7:52)

At this point, I want to remark, that after the $180 Million used to upgrade the new route, I would think they could afford to take off the graffiti from that bridge (where the derailment occurred) before starting the inauguration run.

960x0.jpg
 
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NTSB - “501 was doing 80 in a 30 zone when it derailed...no PTC.”

AP - “Bella Dinh-Zarr, a National Transportation Safety Board member, said at a Monday night news conference that information from the event data recorder in the rear locomotive showed the train was traveling at 80 mph in a 30 mph zone when it derailed at 7:34 a.m.”

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum
 
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The line below is tangent to the track and ends up at about the position of the lead locomotive:

Scene 2.jpg

Imagery date per Google Earth is 5/22/17 and appears to be more recent than the one in Post # 196.
 
Jbpdx said:
Trains had made multiple test runs with no problems. Media is quick to blame speed but test runs probably operated at the same speed. Talgo trains are designed to operate at high speed on curves. They run at 150mph in Spain. What makes this suspicious is that it occurred on the inaugural run and not on a test. The city of Lakewood has been whipping up opposition to the bypass for years. They even tried a ballot initiative against it. Wouldn’t surprise me if a disgruntled opponent was involved. If something substantial was on the track, this was most likely sabotage.
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The preliminary reports indicate it was going 79+ mph through a 30 mph area. The wreckage (based oh the photos) does not appear to be the kind of wreckage that occurs during a derailment at 30 mph.

Also, while Talgo trains can operate at higher speeds around curves, the difference, from my understanding, is really one for passenger comfort only. The tilting technology allows for the forces inside the cars to be slightly more perpendicular to the floor and less lateral. The equipment itself isn't really any more physically capable of higher speeds than standard equipment (after all, Talgo trains operate with standard locomotives and 40-year-old demotored cab cars at those higher speeds). Also, the speed differential for Talgos vs. standard equipment is generally only around 10-15% or so (from my recollection, the typical curves where Talgos are allowed higher speeds are generally posted for P60/T67; there may be a few other variations, but I can't remember and it's been a few years since I had any reason to know this information).

Almost nobody is going to make it around a 30 mph curve going 80 mph, regardless of the type of equipment used.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
Well, if it really was going 81.1 in a T-30, than that would be an overspeed. But we also don't know for sure that Amtrak's sensors are completely accurate.

I find it exceedingly hard to believe that the engineer on this inaugural run of a route would be able to be that distracted.
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The inaugural run was suppose to highlight just how much time the $180.7 million project shaved off the old/previous travel time. I have to wonder if the engineer was under pressure to do the run as fast as possible, so that the supporters could brag (show off) that the project was indeed worth it.
 
Hotblack Desiato said:
Jbpdx said:
Trains had made multiple test runs with no problems. Media is quick to blame speed but test runs probably operated at the same speed. Talgo trains are designed to operate at high speed on curves. They run at 150mph in Spain. What makes this suspicious is that it occurred on the inaugural run and not on a test. The city of Lakewood has been whipping up opposition to the bypass for years. They even tried a ballot initiative against it. Wouldn’t surprise me if a disgruntled opponent was involved. If something substantial was on the track, this was most likely sabotage.
Click to expand...
The preliminary reports indicate it was going 79+ mph through a 30 mph area. The wreckage (based oh the photos) does not appear to be the kind of wreckage that occurs during a derailment at 30 mph.

Also, while Talgo trains can operate at higher speeds around curves, the difference, from my understanding, is really one for passenger comfort only. The tilting technology allows for the forces inside the cars to be slightly more perpendicular to the floor and less lateral. The equipment itself isn't really any more physically capable of higher speeds than standard equipment (after all, Talgo trains operate with standard locomotives and 40-year-old demotored cab cars at those higher speeds). Also, the speed differential for Talgos vs. standard equipment is generally only around 10-15% or so (from my recollection, the typical curves where Talgos are allowed higher speeds are generally posted for P60/T67; there may be a few other variations, but I can't remember and it's been a few years since I had any reason to know this information).

Almost nobody is going to make it around a 30 mph curve going 80 mph, regardless of the type of equipment used.
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That is what the news this morning is saying. It was a 30 zone and the train was doing 80.
 

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