Cut Richmond-Staples Mill Road Station

[USrail21]

Why should Amtrak have the Richmond hub in Staples Mill Road, miles from the city centre. How about cut it and make all Amtrak trains stop at Main Street. It is in the heart, or downtown of the city. Why Main Street has only about 27,000 passengers is that the long distance Amtraks don't stop there like Silver Star. They stop in Staples Mill Toad which I don't get. So cut that station. But no close it. How about extend the Virgina Railway Express Fredericksburg Line to Richmond Main Street with new stops at Ashland (already a Northeast Regional Amtrak station) and Laurel. Also the Staples Mill Road Station will be renamed Lakeside because that is the town it is in. Then it is Richmond Main Street station.

 

[AlanB]

The long distance trains don't stop at Main Street because if they went to Main Street, the would not be able to get to Florida. The tracks that they need to use south of Main Street aren't in service, or at least are not up to passenger standards.

So if we follow your recommendation, the Silver trains and the Palmetto would all end in Richmond.

And that's why they stop at Staples Mills instead.

There is a plan to restore the tracks south of Main Street, but that's still a few years away from completion and even then, Amtrak won't cut Staples Mills because it serves the Richmond suburbs quite nicely and they need the ridership.

You seem to like to cut ridership; do you want Amtrak to fail? Because it sure seems that way since half of your plans all see Amtrak closing stations and losing ridership. You don't increase ridership by closing stations!

 

[USrail21]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

 

[AlanB]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

Which part of "you can't run the trains south of Main Street" did you not understand?

It has nothing to do with how many platforms; you can't go south from that station!

There is also the matter of ACCA yard too, but that's minor compared to the fact that you can't go south.

 

[USrail21]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

Which part of "you can't run the trains south of Main Street" did you not understand?

It has nothing to do with how many platforms; you can't go south from that station!

There is also the matter of ACCA yard too, but that's minor compared to the fact that you can't go south.

Do you not know Main Street Station. There are four tracks. The island platform serves the central tracks and the side platforms serve the end tracks. The long distance Amtrak's would use the tracks that go south and NN bound NER uses the other tracks. It will also be the future station for the Southeast High Speed rail which goes from DC or Hampton Roads to Jacksonville.

 

[AlanB]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

Which part of "you can't run the trains south of Main Street" did you not understand?

It has nothing to do with how many platforms; you can't go south from that station!

There is also the matter of ACCA yard too, but that's minor compared to the fact that you can't go south.

Do you not know Main Street Station. There are four tracks. The island platform serves the central tracks and the side platforms serve the end tracks. The long distance Amtrak's would use the tracks that go south and NN bound NER uses the other tracks. It will also be the future station for the Southeast High Speed rail which goes from DC or Hampton Roads to Jacksonville.

I know Main Street.

And again, the south bound track is either out of service or at least not up to passenger standards, I don't recall which. But the point is that you currently cannot go south no matter what track you use at that station.

Amtrak has wanted to stop the LD's at that station ever since they reopened it; but they can't because the tracks aren't usable for passenger service to reconnect with the CSX main to Florida. Until that track has been brought back to passenger standards, Amtrak cannot run long distance trains into Main Street.

Even once those tracks are restored, Amtrak has no plans to cut Staples Mills, because again it serves the burbs and a huge amount or riders. They'll just make both stops and continue on their way.

 

[afigg]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

<sigh>

Virginia wants to have all Amtrak trains heading south of Richmond run through Main Street Station. This is part of the long term plans for improvements to the DC to Richmond to Petersburg corridor and part of the Southeast HSR corridor plan. But, as AlanB is trying to get through to you, the route from Staples Mill to the Main Street Station and south across the river and upgrades to Main Street Station itself needs a considerable investment. Somewhere in the range of $400 to $600 million if I recall.

That is why the new service to Norfolk in 2013 will go south from Staples Mill to Petersburg and then to Norfolk. The state would like to run the trains through the Main Street Station, but they don't have the funding to do so right now.

The only Amtrak trains that go from Staples Mill Road to Main Street Station are the 2 Regionals running to Newport News which take a long time to get from Staples Mill to Main Street Station because the tracks are slow and they have to get through Acca yard. Check the trip times on the schedule.

BTW, the long term Virginia plans are to replace Staples Mill with a better located suburban station closer to the main highway connections. But this is likely many years away.

 

[xyzzy]

There are two problems in the Richmond area. One is the slow trek from Staples Mill Road to Main Street, as currently traversed by the Newport News passenger trains. The other is the slow trek of 11 miles from Main Street to Centralia, where the ex-SAL was joined to the ex-ACL after 1967. I believe the ex-SAL between Main Street and Centralia is mostly 25 mph single track. It couldn't possibly accommodate the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Carolinian and Palmetto (plus the freight traffic it carries now) without monumental impacts to schedules.

As to how much money would be required for improvements, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. $300+ million is a SEHSR number, I believe. If the drill were simply to run 79/80, 89/90, 91/92, and 97/98 via Main Street on an acceptable schedule, the price tag would go down. But the bottom line is that nobody will spend even a lesser figure just to be able to do that.

 

[Anderson]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

Which part of "you can't run the trains south of Main Street" did you not understand?

It has nothing to do with how many platforms; you can't go south from that station!

There is also the matter of ACCA yard too, but that's minor compared to the fact that you can't go south.

Do you not know Main Street Station. There are four tracks. The island platform serves the central tracks and the side platforms serve the end tracks. The long distance Amtrak's would use the tracks that go south and NN bound NER uses the other tracks. It will also be the future station for the Southeast High Speed rail which goes from DC or Hampton Roads to Jacksonville.

I know Main Street.

And again, the south bound track is either out of service or at least not up to passenger standards, I don't recall which. But the point is that you currently cannot go south no matter what track you use at that station.

Amtrak has wanted to stop the LD's at that station ever since they reopened it; but they can't because the tracks aren't usable for passenger service to reconnect with the CSX main to Florida. Until that track has been brought back to passenger standards, Amtrak cannot run long distance trains into Main Street.

Even once those tracks are restored, Amtrak has no plans to cut Staples Mills, because again it serves the burbs and a huge amount or riders. They'll just make both stops and continue on their way.

My understanding is that there are likely to be at least some trains that will skip one stop or the other at some point, but that is also years down the road. IIRC, the plan is for RVM (that is, Main Street) to become the primary station in Richmond and RVR (that is, Richmond Staples Mill) to become secondary. However, RVM is badly short on parking and is inconvenient for anyone in the northern suburbs of Richmond (in some cases, dropping RVR would make Ashland more convenient). What is likely to happen, if I had to take a guess is this: The TDX comes to pass, and it stops only at RVM (the state plans hint at this from what I've read...RVR is simply out of the way for that train). If SEHSR also gets up to the planned frequencies, you're going to have at least 13 non-LD trains in each direction each day (3 WAS-RVM-NPN, 6 WAS-RVM-NFK, and 4 WAS-RVM-CLT), plus the 3 LD trains. Sooner or later, one or more trains will likely drop RVR as most of your connections will move downtown (which also "plugs in" to Richmond's bus network, such as it exists, a lot better) and connectivity with the TDX exists. You'll still have 7-10 trains per day at RVR at least, but depending on ridership, I can see some reduced-stop express trains cutting a bunch of intermediate stops out if demand trends upwards for long enough.

There's a longer-term obstacle to dropping RVR, though, and that is the likely long-term growth pattern of Northern VA. I suspect that as time goes by, Washington-Richmond is going to become more and more of a merged corridor along the lines of the New York-Philly situation. Yes, the distance is larger, but the area is developing a hundred years later than a lot of the NY Metro area's growth took place and in the context of both the automobile and (at least in the longer-term plans) faster trains than have ever run on many of the New York area metro lines. IIRC, there are plans out there to try and shave 10-20 minutes off of the Richmond-Washington travel time (from about two hours to somewhere around 1:40) with a series of incremental upgrades as part of the SEHSR plan. RVR isn't that badly placed to act as a suburban station if any sort of commuter system starts to build up, be it Richmond-Washington or otherwise (and I'd point out that I-295 is about as far from Washington, DC as Martinsburg, WV, which serves as a MARC terminus). If anything, I would expect a long-term trend to build towards having a couple of stations get added (look at some of VRE's plans: More stations are being looked at along the existing line to relieve parking capacity) as densities increase, albeit mainly for more commuter-style service.

 

[Michael061282]

I live in Richmond, I go by Main St. Station a couple times a week, the Seaboard tracks are in place and see some freight. I'm sure they're nowhere near up to whats needed for passenger service however. Ok so the tracks are in place, but theres no platform for them on that side of the station, one would have to be built and theres very little room to do so. If you rerouted every Amtrak train through Staples Mill, however, you'd add 30-45+ to the schedules and thats just getting through Acca Yard, the track south of the river isn't good and thats the grossest of understatements, that'd cost much more time. It's also mostly single track until it ties in with the Double tracked A-Line, where Amtrak's currently zoom passed at 79MPH or so.It's a much much longer route going that way. ALSO, you'd have NOWHERE to park the Regionals that terminate in Richmond and leave the next morning, unless you wanted to build 3 or 4 storage/servicing tracks in the very busy with an endless stream of coal trains & empties CSX (ex C&O)yard a couple of miles east. Downtown Richmond, especially that area isn't a good place to leave your car overnight, and there's very limited parking anyway. There are no baggage facilities there, there is no staff there at all except a rent-a-cop or two who are genuinely clueless in my experiences.

In a nutshell.. STUPID idea.

 

[Palmland]

I do remember rolling past Main St. station on the Silver Star while the former SAL line was still in service. Today, as has been noted, it's still there but suitable only for a couple CSX local freights that trundle down to the industries on south side and in the Hopewell area. I see getting through Acca yard as a bigger problem. Amtrak now uses the bypass line on the western edge of Acca that crosses the James River just south of the yard. To get to Main St., requires negotiating a move through Acca, often resulting in delays if a freight is working in the yard. I believe the proposal is a new bypass line on the eastern side of the yard to connect to the track downtown - with a highway bridge in the way. This would be a major project. Trying to send more passenger trains down that line now would just be asking for substantial delays.

But eventually a routing through downtown and Main St. station is a good idea. Too bad Virginia didn't get a large chunk of that HSR money rather than being squandered elsewhere. Virginia, like NC, has their act together for rail infrastructure improvements.

 

[Michael061282]

now what WOULD make a little more sense would be if the Newport News trains, which already call at Main Street would continue up the Buckingham Branch (ex C&O) to Doswell, then connect to the RF&P Main to DC at Doswell. That would eliminate the ACCA problems, but the trains would skid Staples Mill Road and Ashland. However the trackage on that section of the BB is worse then the section from Culpepper to Clifton Forge that the Cardinal uses. It would need M_A_J_O_R upgrades just to reach 20 MPH. Thats been proposed before and the town of Ashland had a collective cow about being skipped. And in all honesty, the Ashland station stop is getting busier and busier as the suburbs of Richmond inch north year by year.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I traveled through Richmond Main Street on Amtrak's JAR when it was still operated from Charlottesville to Newport News. Also took Silvers north bound from and thru Richmond Broad Street which was a beautiful station, but added time to the Silver's schedule. SCL was one of the early railrods to build suburban stations to eliminate backup moves in Charleston and Savannah. Amtrak followed through with new stations in Jacksonville & Richmond. These 4 stations have cut down the run times of New York to Florida trains.

 

[CREW DORM #2524]

Getting the Florida trains to stop at Main Street Station IS in the works, HOWEVER, it takes a lot of TIME and MONEY. The big plan is to have everything, except the Auto Train, passing thru Main Street Station.

The NPN trains call on RVM already because there was VERY minor infrastructure (i.e. changes on the ROW) changes that had to be done. In a nut shell, the platform.

With the Florida service, RVM gets a little trickier, but not impossible. The CSX, ex-SAL Bellwood Sub South of Brown Street CAN handle a passenger train and HAS, albeit at 25mph, the NB Star detoured from Centrailia to AY a few years ago, and CSX ran their office car train over the line about a year ago. Now, these were rare moves, so for any kind of daily passenger train the line would have to be upgraded. This takes MONEY and a lot of cooperation with CSX. Again the one train never to pass thru RVM is the Auto Train. The carriers will not fit thru the Triple Crossing just south of the station.

The big plan is to move the T&E crew base, mechanical forces, and overnight layover facility from Greendale to a new facility to be built where the ex-SAL Brown Street yard once was in downtown, under the MLK Bridge. The evening trains that terminate now at RVR would terminate at RVM and would originate there in the AM.

The new RVR station mentioned is a replacement for the current Staples Mill Rd station at Greendale. Supposedly, it will be located about a mile north of the current station, north of the Paraham Rd overhead bridge, and south of the Hungary Rd crossing. Again, this is a ways off. The big obstacle is the question, "Who's going to foot the bill?”

So, as far as killing off Staples Mill Rd; No time soon. Sorry.

 

[VentureForth]

If they electrify down to Richmond will they go electric to RVR or RVM?

 

[George Harris]

Douglas Fir and Western Hem-Fir

A bit of history:

After Broad Street Station was built by ACL, their trains used it. (I do not know what station ACL used before that, but am reasonably sure that it was not Main Street.) Main Street Station was used by C&O, platforms on the east side of the building; and SAL, platforms on the west side of the building. At some point, in the 1950's I think, SAL moved their trains to Broad Street. They still went past Main Street Station on their way to Florida, but no longer stopped there. I would suspect that the move was encouraged by the RF&P as they hauled both ACL and SAL train to/from points north of Richmond. After the ACL+SAL merger, a connection was built south of Petersburg and all trains, passenger and freight used the ACL mains south out of Richmond. The ex SAL main south of Main Street station remained in service, but for access to online industries only. This segment was connected into the ex-ACL main at its crossing of this line, which was about half way between Richmond and Petersburg. Therefore, it was downgraded as there was no need to keep an industrial access track up for anything beyond 10 to 25 mph. I believe the track is still there. Even at its best, it was slower than the ACL main. You can look at old passenger timetables and see that the ACL Richmond Petersburg time was less than the SAL Richmond Petersburg time. The SAL+ACL did not choose to put all train on the ACL line because of stupidity. They did because it was the best choice, in fact so much better that it was worth building a two to three mile long connection between the lines south of Petersburg to do so.

Therefore, even with upgrading all tracks necessary to serve Main Street to 79 mph plus, which is not achievable throughout due to curves, anyway, going by Main Street Station will still take more time than stopping only at Staples Mill.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

Which part of "you can't run the trains south of Main Street" did you not understand?

It has nothing to do with how many platforms; you can't go south from that station!

There is also the matter of ACCA yard too, but that's minor compared to the fact that you can't go south.

Do you not know Main Street Station. There are four tracks. The island platform serves the central tracks and the side platforms serve the end tracks. The long distance Amtrak's would use the tracks that go south and NN bound NER uses the other tracks. It will also be the future station for the Southeast High Speed rail which goes from DC or Hampton Roads to Jacksonville.

I know Main Street.

And again, the south bound track is either out of service or at least not up to passenger standards, I don't recall which. But the point is that you currently cannot go south no matter what track you use at that station.

Amtrak has wanted to stop the LD's at that station ever since they reopened it; but they can't because the tracks aren't usable for passenger service to reconnect with the CSX main to Florida. Until that track has been brought back to passenger standards, Amtrak cannot run long distance trains into Main Street.

Even once those tracks are restored, Amtrak has no plans to cut Staples Mills, because again it serves the burbs and a huge amount or riders. They'll just make both stops and continue on their way.

Geeze... While I like to look at postings with new views, one has to wonder if Allan does not have the patience of a saint. I think his answers to the questions that have been asked of late are very clear. I'm not sure how his answers could be so misconstrued. It almost seems deliberate IMHO.

 

[afigg]

But eventually a routing through downtown and Main St. station is a good idea. Too bad Virginia didn't get a large chunk of that HSR money rather than being squandered elsewhere. Virginia, like NC, has their act together for rail infrastructure improvements.

The main reason from the reports that Virginia did not get more of the HSIPR funding is that the engineering and environmental assessments for the RF&P plans were not far enough along to qualify for construction funding. Virginia had studies, but not Tier I or II preliminary engineering (PE) work. The only construction project that was selected was the $75 million for the 3rd track from Arkendale to Powell's Creek which still has not been obligated yet. Don't know whether that is still going to happen or not. Could just be waiting to wrap up the EIS and PE work. Or could be stalled in FRA and CSX negotiations on the terms of the agreements. Same goes for the $26.5 million that was awarded to NC for construction of 4 crossovers on the CSX A-Line and NC Railroad near Raleigh which has not been obligated either.

Virginia instead got $45.5 million of FY10 funding for project analysis and PE for the Alexandria to Richmond part of the SE HSR and a new Appomattox river bridge. The big part of that, $44.3 million for the PE/NEPA work, was obligated several months ago so VA has funding to do the detailed engineering and analysis work to determine what upgrades and track projects to implement with established cost estimates. Once the engineering is much further along, if federal funding becomes available, then VA will be ready to apply for it. Or spend state money for specific upgrade projects that they have enough funds for. Either way, track and station upgrades to allow for full use of the Main Street Station are years away.

 

[Big Iron]

Actually on Main Street, their is an island platform and two side platforms. So cut staples mill and make all Amtrak's stop there

Which part of "you can't run the trains south of Main Street" did you not understand?

It has nothing to do with how many platforms; you can't go south from that station!

There is also the matter of ACCA yard too, but that's minor compared to the fact that you can't go south.

Do you not know Main Street Station. There are four tracks. The island platform serves the central tracks and the side platforms serve the end tracks. The long distance Amtrak's would use the tracks that go south and NN bound NER uses the other tracks. It will also be the future station for the Southeast High Speed rail which goes from DC or Hampton Roads to Jacksonville.

I know Main Street.

And again, the south bound track is either out of service or at least not up to passenger standards, I don't recall which. But the point is that you currently cannot go south no matter what track you use at that station.

Amtrak has wanted to stop the LD's at that station ever since they reopened it; but they can't because the tracks aren't usable for passenger service to reconnect with the CSX main to Florida. Until that track has been brought back to passenger standards, Amtrak cannot run long distance trains into Main Street.

Even once those tracks are restored, Amtrak has no plans to cut Staples Mills, because again it serves the burbs and a huge amount or riders. They'll just make both stops and continue on their way.

Geeze... While I like to look at postings with new views, one has to wonder if Allan does not have the patience of a saint. I think his answers to the questions that have been asked of late are very clear. I'm not sure how his answers could be so misconstrued. It almost seems deliberate IMHO.

Better watch out TDC, the OP will be going after ALX next.....too close to WAS, Metro can take you to DC, busses, etc. :lol:

 

[Big Iron]

But eventually a routing through downtown and Main St. station is a good idea. Too bad Virginia didn't get a large chunk of that HSR money rather than being squandered elsewhere. Virginia, like NC, has their act together for rail infrastructure improvements.

The main reason from the reports that Virginia did not get more of the HSIPR funding is that the engineering and environmental assessments for the RF&P plans were not far enough along to qualify for construction funding. Virginia had studies, but not Tier I or II preliminary engineering (PE) work. The only construction project that was selected was the $75 million for the 3rd track from Arkendale to Powell's Creek which still has not been obligated yet. Don't know whether that is still going to happen or not. Could just be waiting to wrap up the EIS and PE work. Or could be stalled in FRA and CSX negotiations on the terms of the agreements. Same goes for the $26.5 million that was awarded to NC for construction of 4 crossovers on the CSX A-Line and NC Railroad near Raleigh which has not been obligated either.

Virginia instead got $45.5 million of FY10 funding for project analysis and PE for the Alexandria to Richmond part of the SE HSR and a new Appomattox river bridge. The big part of that, $44.3 million for the PE/NEPA work, was obligated several months ago so VA has funding to do the detailed engineering and analysis work to determine what upgrades and track projects to implement with established cost estimates. Once the engineering is much further along, if federal funding becomes available, then VA will be ready to apply for it. Or spend state money for specific upgrade projects that they have enough funds for. Either way, track and station upgrades to allow for full use of the Main Street Station are years away.

RVM is planned to become the cultural/entertainment centerpiece of a revitalization plan for the area surrounding the station called Shockoe Bottom. The area was a hardscrabble tobacco center years ago but has evolved into an entertainment district with the tobacco buildings turned into high end loft apartments. The trainshed will be glassed in and used as an entertainment venue/meeting place. Anyone that has driven by the place knows that it is very visible from I-95. I hope the plans develop as many more people will be exposed to Amtrak and rail travel.

 

[Jamie]

The state of Virginia has made it clear that even when the track upgrades are complete to allow all trains to serve Richmond Main Street, they do not want Staples Mill to be closed- that station has pretty high ridership. Also has plenty of parking, which you do not have downtown.

 

[123]

If either of Richmond's stations is the "main" one, it's Staples Mill, which gets all the Richmond trains-- as opposed to Main Street, which gets only four trains.

Twice I've seen passengers going to Richmond's "main" station mistakenly think they want Main Street rather the primary, full-service, staffed Staples Mill-- passengers (one with checked baggage) who got off at the wrong stop.

 

[xyzzy]

plenty of parking

Well, there is parking but I wouldn't call it plentiful.

 

[xyzzy]

After teh ACL+SAL merger, a connection was built south of Petersburg and all trains, passenger and freight used the ACL mains south out fo Richmond.

Two connections were built. Looking south from Richmond, the first connection was from the SAL to the ACL at Centralia. Pre-1967, the SAL bridged over the ACL a short distance south of Centralia. The portion of the SAL from Centralia to south of Petersburg was abandoned, except for a short stretch of industrial track in downtown Petersburg. The other connection -- sometimes called the Burgess connection -- was built from the south end of ACL's Collier Yard (south of Petersburg) to the SAL main line towards Raleigh and Florida. The Burgess connection, along with the rest of the SAL main line in southern Virginia, was abandoned in 1986.

 

[Anderson]

That's the thing: The first time I took the train to Florida, that's what I assumed, and I was thoroughly confused at having to go to this "other" station. Honestly, switching which station is the "main" one (or at least getting them close to parity) would alleviate a lot of headaches. I'm sure there's been more than one person over the years who has booked RVM-somewhere and been stuck waiting at RVR for three hours after a five minute train ride across town.