Cut Princeton Junction, Cornwells Heights, North Philly, and Exton

[USrail21]

Why would Amtrak need P. Junction, C. Heights, N. Philly, and Exton. They have low ridership of amtrak especially N. Philly had only 345 annual Amtrak passengers meanwhile it is a hub for SEPTA commuter rail. If those stations are cut, Amtrak would be faster. Keystone Service, like at least 20 minutes. Northeast Regional should skip Newark Airport and New Brunswick. But Keystone would still serve those stations. NER would definitely still stop in Metropark. So Amtrak would be better without P. Junction, C. Heights, N. Philly, and Exton. Plus, SEPTA or NJT already serves them.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak stops at those stations because the states want those stops. I'm not sure about Pennsy, but I believe that NJT still pays Amtrak to have a few trains stop at Princton Junction. So they stop.

As for Newark Airport, Amtrak needs more trains to stop there, not less. EWR is a major airport that should have better service than it does. No reason that BWI should have more service than EWR.

 

[Ryan]

When you factor in NJT and MARC, EWR gets FAR better service than BWI. EWR sees almost twice as many NJT trains on a Sunday (56) than BWI sees on a weekday (27).

 

[stntylr]

I have always wondered about N. Philly since it's ridership is amazingly low.

 

[afigg]

Why would Amtrak need P. Junction, C. Heights, N. Philly, and Exton. They have low ridership of amtrak especially N. Philly had only 345 annual Amtrak passengers meanwhile it is a hub for SEPTA commuter rail. If those stations are cut, Amtrak would be faster. Keystone Service, like at least 20 minutes. Northeast Regional should skip Newark Airport and New Brunswick. But Keystone would still serve those stations. NER would definitely still stop in Metropark. So Amtrak would be better without P. Junction, C. Heights, N. Philly, and Exton. Plus, SEPTA or NJT already serves them.

So you have this fixation on eliminating Amtrak stops as a way to improve service. You have a bunch of stations in your post which makes for a disjointed reply. Ok, I'll take a shot at a rebuttal. :hi: First, few Amtrak trains now stop at North Philly, Cornwall Heights, Princeton Junction. The stops only affect the trains that stop at those stations.

North Philly - This used to be a much busier station for intercity passenger traffic. Amtrak owns the North Philly station, so there may be contractual and/or legal reason to stop there to maintain a presence. Since North Philly is on a slow portion of the NEC and has high level platforms, a stop there to discharge or pickup 1-2 people does not have much effect on the trip times.

Cornwall Heights PA, Princeton Junction NJ - both of these stations had a lot more Amtrak ridership back when the Clockers were running. With the Clocker service being turned over to NJT from Trenton northward, riders from these stations lost a lot of single seat ride options in travel across the state line: Cornwall Heights to Newark & NYP, Princeton Junction to PHL. Amtrak only has several daily Regionals and Keystones stopping at these 2 stations in large part because of the hit on trip time to move to the outside tracks. Cornwall Heights also has low level platforms which don't help. For a much more detailed discussion of the background and issues with these 2 stations, Amtrak published a report 2 years ago with the catchy title, PRIIIA Section 224 Pennsylvania Feasibility Studies Report on options for more service at those 2 stations and improved HBG-PGH service. I suggest you read these reports to learn more about the reasons and issues with service at those stations.

Exton PA - this is a busy stop on the Keystone East with growing ridership and one that I have some familiarity with. FY08: 74,913; FY10: 91,093 passengers for 20+% growth in only 2 years. I'm curious why you think the Keystone should not stop there? The plans for Exton, as they are for all the Keystone service stations from PHL-HBG is to upgrade the stations with high level platforms to reduce stop times. That is how you improve trip times and service, not by willy-nilly eliminating station stops. See Plan the Keystone for info.

 

[Joeker]

Amtrak should be encouraging MORE suburban stops rather than less. It is much easier for many suburbanites to travel to a local stop rather than to have to take local transportation and change at a downtown station. Here in Chicago I am always amazed at he amount of passengers boarding long distance trains at Naperville and or Glenview.

This is an advantage that Amtrak has over the airlines and even the Bus Lines as that it has the ability to serve some of the smaller bedroom communities on its routes and those can become and develop into more passenger growth.

 

[dlagrua]

I use to travel to BWI, BAL and WAS regularly for business meetings back about 15 years ago and was able to board the old Metroliner at Princeton Jct. I recall the parking lot was surpringly full and the stop heavily utilized. Some NEC trains still stop there but LD trains only stop at EWR and Trenton in NJ.

Its strange but in a populous state like NJ I cannot understand why there are only two LD train stops. The Crescent, Silvers and the Cardinal don't even stop at Metropark, NJ's second busiest station. Isn't Amtrak limiting ridership because of this?

 

[jphjaxfl]

Amtrak should be encouraging MORE suburban stops rather than less. It is much easier for many suburbanites to travel to a local stop rather than to have to take local transportation and change at a downtown station. Here in Chicago I am always amazed at he amount of passengers boarding long distance trains at Naperville and or Glenview.

This is an advantage that Amtrak has over the airlines and even the Bus Lines as that it has the ability to serve some of the smaller bedroom communities on its routes and those can become and develop into more passenger growth.

In pre-Amtrak days, long distance passenger trains had many suburban stops. At Englewood Union Station,in Chicago. It was possible to change from trains from Los Angeles, Denver and points west on the Rock Island to New York, Washington and points east on the New York Central, Pennsylvania or Nickel Plate without even going to the loop. Cincinnati had Winton Place and Norwood where many trains made suburban stops before going to Union Terminal. It was also possible to change trains between certain railroads so it wouldn't be necessary to go to Union Terminal. The running times with the suburban stops were less than now.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

I have always wondered about N. Philly since it's ridership is amazingly low.

The surrounding neighborhood is not the safest place to be.

I agree, Amtrak should probably drop North Philly and Cornwells Height. Not too many riders there.

 

[Gratt]

Could you suggest adding some new stations? Particularly on some LD routes?

While the NEC is a complex creature, as many pointed out cutting stations or not having all trains stop at all stations is really a waste.

The five min time save is not worth losing often hundreds of thousand if not millions of dollars a year in potential revenue.

 

[afigg]

I use to travel to BWI, BAL and WAS regularly for business meetings back about 15 years ago and was able to board the old Metroliner at Princeton Jct. I recall the parking lot was surpringly full and the stop heavily utilized. Some NEC trains still stop there but LD trains only stop at EWR and Trenton in NJ.

Its strange but in a populous state like NJ I cannot understand why there are only two LD train stops. The Crescent, Silvers and the Cardinal don't even stop at Metropark, NJ's second busiest station. Isn't Amtrak limiting ridership because of this?

For FY10, Metropark was NJ's 3rd busiest station after Newark (658,089), Trenton (420,533), then Metropark (388,371). It is somewhat surprising that the LD trains and the Carolinian skip Metropark, but they also skip BWI which is the suburban station between Baltimore & DC, not just an airport stop.

The issue with Metropark could be in part that it has only outer platforms for the local tracks, so all Amtrak trains stopping there have to switch to the outer local tracks. Those moves add delays and have to be fitted into the NJT traffic. With the Amtrak trains that do stop at Metropark, adding the LD trains may not be worth the interference in their view. I have taken a train out of Metropark which is located at a curve or bend. I wonder when the station was built, whether any consideration was given to moving the 2 eastern (well, SE) tracks over to make room for a center platform so the Amtrak trains could stop using the center tracks?

 

[Thunder Road]

CWH was a huge missed opportunity. They rebuilt the southbound side in the late 1990s and could easily have turned it into a Metropark or BWI or Route 128 or New Carrolton, but instead they completely neglected the northbound side and still force passengers to either take a bus to the other side or walk a pretty good distance and cross under the tracks through the tunnel for Station Avenue.

They should have put high-level platforms in and a pedestrian bridge and made it more Amtrak-friendly. Sure it would have cost more money then, but today they (SEPTA) would not be paying union bus drivers or the gas they consume idling all day waiting for trains.

My dad takes the NER or Keystone every Monday CWH-NYP and every Friday back. Last year he commuted daily but the hours became too much for him. There's a group of about 10 people that get on every morning...some businessmen and some models...and we recognize the same people all the time. On a Friday evening maybe 15 or so get off.

CWH is still a viable stop, blame SEPTA that's it's not even more usable.

In response to the OP, only 2 trains each direction (the morning ones are Regional #110 and Keystone #640) even stop at CWH, so those are the ONLY two that have to slow down. I don't know that south/west-bound evening train numbers, but the Regional (5:39pm departure from NYP) skips Trenton but stops at CWH. Trenton is definitely much more time-consuming than a little stop at CWH, so at least on that train it washes out. If there was a NER that stopped at NE Philly, CWH and Princeton Junction all in the same trip, and didn't skip Trenton either (idk, maybe there is?) then I could imagine that being a pain.

But if anything CWH needs more service and a refurb, not less service and total neglect.

Ok sorry to make my first post so long-winded and belligerent-sounding, but I think that covers everything.

 

[jacorbett70]

I need those passing "checkins" at N. Philly, CWH, and Princeton Jct to pad my bulging number of "stamps" on the iPhone app. Don't take those stations away!

On a more serious note, I agree with the follow-up posters that the suburban stops are needed. Americans desire a one-seat ride whenever possible. Also transfers are not coordinated between commuter and Amtrak. Maybe if the North Philly neighborhood were to rise the way Harlem (NYC) rose in recent years it would be a useful Amtrak-to-commuter transfer station. Otherwise North Philly can go and be left to SEPTA.

 

[jis]

I use to travel to BWI, BAL and WAS regularly for business meetings back about 15 years ago and was able to board the old Metroliner at Princeton Jct. I recall the parking lot was surpringly full and the stop heavily utilized. Some NEC trains still stop there but LD trains only stop at EWR and Trenton in NJ.

Its strange but in a populous state like NJ I cannot understand why there are only two LD train stops. The Crescent, Silvers and the Cardinal don't even stop at Metropark, NJ's second busiest station. Isn't Amtrak limiting ridership because of this?

LD trains stop at NWK and TRE. They do not stop at EWR. I have no recollection of any LD trains topping at PJC even in the 80s and the 90s. Mteroliners, at least some of them did stop at PJC.

The issue with Metropark could be in part that it has only outer platforms for the local tracks, so all Amtrak trains stopping there have to switch to the outer local tracks. Those moves add delays and have to be fitted into the NJT traffic. With the Amtrak trains that do stop at Metropark, adding the LD trains may not be worth the interference in their view. I have taken a train out of Metropark which is located at a curve or bend. I wonder when the station was built, whether any consideration was given to moving the 2 eastern (well, SE) tracks over to make room for a center platform so the Amtrak trains could stop using the center tracks?

AFAIK no such consideration was given. Even if it was there was not going to be enough money to do it. It would be a several 100 million dollar jobbie. And it would cause reduction of speed limit on the eastbound middle track due to the need for sharper curvature to move it over, so there goes the 90-P/100-A speeds through Metropark for nonstops.

 

[afigg]

The issue with Metropark could be in part that it has only outer platforms for the local tracks, so all Amtrak trains stopping there have to switch to the outer local tracks. Those moves add delays and have to be fitted into the NJT traffic. With the Amtrak trains that do stop at Metropark, adding the LD trains may not be worth the interference in their view. I have taken a train out of Metropark which is located at a curve or bend. I wonder when the station was built, whether any consideration was given to moving the 2 eastern (well, SE) tracks over to make room for a center platform so the Amtrak trains could stop using the center tracks?

AFAIK no such consideration was given. Even if it was there was not going to be enough money to do it. It would be a several 100 million dollar jobbie. And it would cause reduction of speed limit on the eastbound middle track due to the need for sharper curvature to move it over, so there goes the 90-P/100-A speeds through Metropark for nonstops.

The tracks at Metropark curve towards the NW side. Tracks on the SE side would be on the inside of the curve and would have less curvature if a center platform was installed. But Metropark was recently refurbished and any such track shift would require a new/rebuilt bridge across the Garden State and tearing out part of the station at a minimum. A project in the 100s of millions, so, yes, not in the cards.

The segment of the NEC at Metropark has a curve to the NW. One can draw a straighter NEC on a 0.8 to 0.9 mile long line going through the SE side of the parking garage and on the north side of Middlesex Essex Turnpike. This would, however, require some taking of what look to be light industrial/commercial buildings and parking lots and tearing down of much of the Metropark station complex. Not going to happen now because it does not offer that much of an improvement for the considerable cost, so the curve at Metropark will stay.

 

[BuzzKillington]

I believe the Pennsylvanian and the Carolinian used to stop at Princeton Jct back in the 90's in at least one direction.

 

[jis]

I believe the Pennsylvanian and the Carolinian used to stop at Princeton Jct back in the 90's in at least one direction.

Yes there were a few mid-distance trains like those that stopped at PJC. But I don;t recall any LD stopping there. That is not to say that some might have. It is just that I don;t have any recollection of such.

 

[jis]

The segment of the NEC at Metropark has a curve to the NW. One can draw a straighter NEC on a 0.8 to 0.9 mile long line going through the SE side of the parking garage and on the north side of Middlesex Essex Turnpike. This would, however, require some taking of what look to be light industrial/commercial buildings and parking lots and tearing down of much of the Metropark station complex. Not going to happen now because it does not offer that much of an improvement for the considerable cost, so the curve at Metropark will stay.

Theoretically a straight alignment could be constructed by running the tracks elevated right atop Middlesex-Essex Turnpike roughly from Christie St. (M-E Turnpike is called Thornall St. there) to Grand St. Naturally there will be much NIMBY opposition to such and it will cost a lot.

It is technically possible to build two island platforms, though narrow, between track 1/2 and between 3/4 within the current property footprint. This can be achieved by moving track 4 over to an alignment right next to Rt 27, moving the 2 and 3 a little to the SE and putting track 1 on an elevated structure nearer the parking structures. Again, and expensive proposition, but doable, and less expensive than the straight line elevated structure.

Bottom line is no matter what it is a project in the 100million dollar+ range, and there are many other opportunities on the NEC where this money could be spent better.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Doesn't Continental still sell connections to NYC via EWR and Amtrak?

A LOT of Princeton Jct Amtrak traffic is for Philly or D.C. It can be annoying to have to switch to SEPTA at Trenton if you're heading to Philly.

Likewise, anyone heading north of NYP from Princeton Jct (think New Haven and Boston bound).

 

[jis]

Doesn't Continental still sell connections to NYC via EWR and Amtrak?

AFAIK Continental never sold EWR - NYP as a colisted segment. It sold EWR - PHL, EWR - STM and EWR - NHV, and perhaps others, but never to NYP or NWK.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

That's good to know for my trips to NHV. I didn't know they codeshared up there.

 

[railbuck]

Doesn't Continental still sell connections to NYC via EWR and Amtrak?

AFAIK Continental never sold EWR - NYP as a colisted segment. It sold EWR - PHL, EWR - STM and EWR - NHV, and perhaps others, but never to NYP or NWK.

To find these codeshares on continental.com or other travel sites, use the rail station codes ZFV, ZTF, and ZVE respectively. Continental does not currently codeshare (and possibly never did) to ZYP - Penn Station even though the station code can be found on their list of destinations.

 

[afigg]

The boarding + alighting numbers for the North Philadelphia station are weird - and tiny. I wonder if it is 1 guy who takes the train to NJ or NYC from North Philly.

FY08: 349

FY09: 254 (took a long vacation that year?)

FY10: 345

For those who take point trips, won't take many trips to show up in the North Philly numbers. Take the Keystones and the 1 Regional that - at least according to the schedule - that stop at North Philadelphia. When the Conductor or AC lifts your ticket, they might stop and make sure that you are really planning to stop at North Philly? Get off at the North Philly station and take the SEPTA subway lines to 30th Street. Enough people do this and the FY12 numbers could be bumped up to 400 or more! Amtrak managers might be wondering what the heck?

Make North Philly the it station for the bragging rights point run on the NEC! Would recommend using the station in daylight hours only though. This is North Philadelphia after all. I would also suggest only taking the train to North Philly because the trains may not really stop there to pick passengers up. Just my wacky thought for the day.